Pro-Gay books for 5 year olds?

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Caano Geel:

 

Point:

First its alright doesn't mean just do it, its more like if others do it, your ok with it -- and this is why a theological problem may exists here. I say may, because interpretation is as varied as there are opinions .. but this is point of reasoning.

It's alright may not mean just do it - but there is a link. If the indoctrination is it's alright - one is more likely to do it. At the very least - forced promotion and approval like this is beyond the purview of a school.

 

Anyhow, if we take this as an experiment, with the hypothesis that providing information about being gay increases the chances of people becoming gay...

 

I know you can see my point .. It wouldnt hold, for societies where such practices are dutifully suppressed we still see gay women and men - and if we had the capacity to collect real data on it, i dont think the rates would be different to society which are open about it, only the peoples life experiences would differ..

 

I love the spin here - or dare I call it something else. This in not a factual book about homosexuality. This is a book that attempts to instill gay friendly themes by telling a story about a prince choosing his dream guy.

 

Nor does it matter about other societies. I don't know where that came in.

Also i dont think the point of taboo here extends to the other relationship types you have mentioned. These relationship types are nurtured - with this point, i think we (I) get woolly, there is not as far i understand a brain function that says you will be attracted to woman A and not B (not the form of type but in person), so the actions that lead to incest are nurtured - i.e. a person involved in such action will not be exclusive to their partner, but would also be ok with a choice involving anyone of the same gender as their partner. This is not the case form homosexuality, i.e. there is a strong gender exclusivity, as implied in the title

I mentioned 3 different types of relationships not only that with a sibling. Additionally, with the sibling case - it is apparently exclusive since the persons in question on both sides have chosen only each other. It makes the rest of your point moot.

 

anyhow i think indoctrination is too vague a concept, as i said such an action can at best make it ultimately acceptable for people to be gay, not make people gay. Whether this is a problem depends on how you see your role in determining how other people live their lives, since ultimately you or i will not judge ...

Indoctrination is what happens to all young children. Parents, siblings, relatives and the community at large indoctrinates kids both overtly and subtly in order to make them (hopefully) productive members of society. From telling them stories to punishing them for transgressions to providing role models - the indoctrination is there. And it can be a good thing or a bad thing.

 

Again - making things acceptable and palatable likely increases the chances of someone engaging in these practices. But even that is moot point - because it is inappropriate to be indoctrinating young children in this manner given that people do not subscribe to the same value set.

 

Additionally - I don't determine how other people live their lives - the laws of the nation do. But why the hell are gays and their supporters trying to teach my child that the gay value set is good and correct. Aren't they interfering in my life by trying to influence my kid?

 

 

Let me break it down for you thru some simple questions:

 

1- Is it appropriate for a school to have a story that makes a hero of a religious figure and attempts to portray this figure in a positive light? Is pushing this agenda not forcing a particular value system on one who may not necessarily subscribe to it?

 

2- Picture the same scenario above and then throw in the impressionable minds of young children who can be molded relatively easily.

 

Now do you really believe that is appropriate for young children? How can a gay friendly indoctrinating fairy tale be appropriate for a 7 year old? Simple answers will do.

[Changed]

Caano Geel "Does that mean nature is only that which has a physical manifestation that *you* can see?"

 

Dear CG u seem to be in a world that is quit distant from the one i reside in. I cannot and will not speak of this situation in Hypothetical format.

 

I will be graphic here to excuse me everyone hopefully I won’t offend anyone. I am being simplistic here but the hole was made for a stick … two sticks don’t work together neither does two holes <==== this is the problems. To answer your question yes nature boils down to what I see and what is said in the Quran. I am going by the ways I have been thought in the Quran. The Quran and Sunah ban homosexuality. I accept it without question. Oh to logically explain Nature! Normally when men and women come together they tend to reproduce. So if it was nature that made them feel that way then why can’t they reproduce?

 

These books are not optional books as stated by conspiracy. These books will be taught in school. I find it problematic to know that my child could be reading about two mommies and daddies and wonder why he/she has a mommy and a daddy.

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

NOGNE,

 

There you gave a lengthy speech with little or no substance! You went off on a tangent, rambled aimlessly and predictably made little or no sense at all. The issue before you is very simple and you need to take a stance:

1- Is it appropriate to introduce a 5-year child to a gay literature?

 

Whether the fact Muslims don’t necessarily need to rationalize divinely imposed orders contradicts with my claim of homosexuality being a deviation from the norm is beside the point adeer ( I can start you by pointing out that man is born in a state of fitrah, purity, and what comes after birth is due to external influences, and not necessarily an innate quality).

 

The point I am trying to make though (and most people understood it and actually took a stance on it) is exposing young children to such a gay suggestive contents is wrong and harmful. Tolerance has nothing to do with it. This is a badly chosen matter and it can actually be objected on many grounds. Hating, or badmouthing as you try to disguise it in your creative writing, is not my forte! I don’t subscribe to the notion that sins deaden hearts eternally or prevent moral reform. In the other words there is always a hope that sinners could recover from their wicked ways and find guidance hence there’s no point in hating a potential Muslim from my perspective. But it seems that you are utterly confused and failed to distinguish between protesting against a particular wrongdoing and expressing repulsiveness about it AND hating certain group or category of sinners. The two are different yaa Xaaji!

 

Despite what the nincompoops that are quick to brand whoever does not agree with their stances say, my points were clear, saaxib. The substance was all their if you stop being stubborn for a minute and read it with an open heart and mind. I shall not bore you with a long speech (or creative writing). I will instead answer your question that it is indeed wrong to teach five-year-olds about homosexuality. However, it is only wrong in my book and yours not in democratic, secular and multicultural societies.

The hate message, by the way, was not aimed at you for I have not seen any hatred in your words. The issue of ‘natural’ and ‘unnatural’ is what I picked you up on.

 

Again, I repeat, the powers that be (which don’t happen to be Muslim) have decided it’s ok to teach children about homosexuality. I feel no need to do summersaults and flail my arms about in protest, because this, truly, does not come as a big shock.

[Johnny B]

Good Xiin,

Kids are naturally skeptics and questioners which makes them intellectually vulnerabe (maleable if u like),therefore they're exposed to intellectual whims for good or worse indeed, their burning desire to know just about everything has driven many parents to distraction, annoying as it might be at times.

 

Given That a child's right to question everything should be encouraged rather than discouraged is atleast our common ground, While a parent might want to appear to know everything and want to protect the child from what s/he

presumes to be "bad" , unfortunately most if not all parents intentionally mislead in the name of

protecting/overprotecting their children by carefully instilling what they deem a "must beleive" in the vulnerable minds of their chldren.

 

Of the many realities that we came to discover or encountered as we grew and became capable of deducting our oun conclusions, that there were people who unlike us are attracted to the same sex turned out to be less harmful than the reality of earth beeing everything but flat, judging from the five year old child's perspective, that is.

 

As a caring Parent,you're forgiven for not knowing the answers to all the question, but you're not forgiven to have pretended to know the answer or to have made up an answer simply because it fited in with your preconceptions.

 

Good Xiin-ow, from Muslim's perspective ,a Indian Fathers divinely advice of obeying Krishna to his five year old kid is sort of harm,given that a Muslim harbours an unreserved sympathy towards the innocent,and your ability to deduct from swapped roles never came into question.

 

 

CG,

This topic is actually trivial matter,the kind of topic that you & Xiin could agree upon, but the unseasoned Mulahism's need to flex its imaginatively divine muscle in every thread is slightly disturbing, it suffocates any witty and genuine attempt to address the issue, We can't afford loosing breath on the likes of Khalaf and his new Sheikh as they're in regress from which the only escape is ("divine TFG") "God meant so" .

 

 

Che,

I was just giving another prosepect , as for what i might have in common with 'them', well, you rather not count.

[Silver]

A muslim site with 108 responses to the topic: Is there 108 ways to say sick & hell no for my kids?

[Zafir]

Good Xiin-ow, from Muslim's perspective ,a Indian Fathers divinely advice of obeying Krishna to his five year old kid is sort of harm,given that a Muslim harbours an unreserved sympathy towards the innocent,and your ability to deduct from swapped roles never came into question.

The similarity you have used isn’t reasonable yaa JB . There is a difference between my child and ‘a’ child. A father who tells his child eating caw manure every so often will make his entire family go to heaven, a father who tells his child picking noise in public with index finger and dibbing it in his mouth will supply strong taste buds and the father who tells his child to beat up anyone who is younger than him have every right to do so. However, these issues take a turn when it involves my child; my principals are quite different from these fathers’ values.

 

As an adult in a society you learn to tolerate other values and principals, you don’t necessarily accept them. As a parent you want to have the privilege to teach your child what’s tolerable and what’s not, for instance caw manure is a. No. Go. But I digress.

[Ms DD]

Originally posted by Suuro:

A muslim site with 108 responses to the topic: Is there 108 ways to say sick & hell no for my kids?

I am gobsmacked too. No doubt..some will think of us as backwrds and intolerable by refusing our kids be exposed to this kind of thing.

 

Originally posted by ThePoint:

making things acceptable and palatable likely increases the chances of someone engaging in these practices

This is exactly my point. No one is talking about discriminating. Make this acceptable to a malleable child is dangerous and a nightmare for any muslim. The problem with these books is that it is teaching the children that same sex couples is the norm. These books can not be considered educational. They are giving the impression that families with same sex parents are acceptable, I'm sorry but they are not. For heavens sake, one of the books is a story about Gay Penguins who are given an egg because they cant have one of their own.

 

Too much is being taught to young children nowadays before it is needed. Children should be allowed to remain as children for as long as possible without the liberals trying to force social acceptance in respect of single sex parents upon them.

[NGONGE]

^^ They are not acceptable to YOU. Be clear on what you say and how you say it. Now, in all honesty, what can you do about it?

 

Protest? Well, if it takes the form of some of the protests we’ve had here it will only come across as some sort of homophobic discrimination. Your protest will not make a difference. In fact you’ll be rejected and vilified. So, what next? Leave the country? Well, I suppose that’s a reasonable alternative (and makes one less of a hypocrite). But what if you can’t leave the country! Teach your kids at home? Send them to an Islamic school? What?

 

Don’t scream and shout on something that is quite normal and probable in a secular society.

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

Teach your kids at home? Send them to an Islamic school? What?

 

Don’t scream and shout on something that is quite normal and probable in a secular society.

NGONGE,

You really got me cracked there.

Cambarro's only reasonable answer to your questions have to be NO NO NO, becouse even if the kids were sent to Islamic school , we'd have a topic like " non-niqabi daycare worker for 5 year olds"?( all the way to "at what age a daycare center would seperate kids genderwise" )

 

the distniction is extendable down to the "I".

 

There're better ways to present personal views regarding Homosexuality, i dare assert.

 

Edit:

 

Zafir, the difference between my child and 'a' child is theoretical, no chicld is 'a' child.

 

NGONGE was right when he thought you were one hell of a better JB

[Changed]

Ngone "what can you do about it? "

 

Why is there such a thing as school council? Parents have the eternal right to decide which kinds of books their children read in schools.

 

I despise the Somali notion of what can I do? Go back home. Why do we have to go back to Muslim countries to raise children with proper values? Aren’t we productive members of society? We pay taxes for goodness sakes. We are loyal citizen of the countries we reside in therefore our opinions should be valued. In the issue of gay ideologies being taught to the children we are privileged in a sense because we have the support of all the other religions from Judaism to Hinduism. A commonality in all the books from the Quran to the Githa (probably misspelled it)

 

One assumes that when people are anti homosexuality then they must be homophobes. That is not the case. A lot of people can be tolerant to homosexuality but teaching kids the normality of homosexuality is abnormal in itself .

 

PS: is it me or are people personallizing the issue... i have noticed few personall insults here and there

[Alle-ubaahne]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

quote:Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

NOGNE,

 

There you gave a lengthy speech with little or no substance! You went off on a tangent, rambled aimlessly and predictably made little or no sense at all. The issue before you is very simple and you need to take a stance:

1- Is it appropriate to introduce a 5-year child to a gay literature?

 

Whether the fact Muslims don’t necessarily need to rationalize divinely imposed orders contradicts with my claim of homosexuality being a deviation from the norm is beside the point adeer ( I can start you by pointing out that man is born in a state of fitrah, purity, and what comes after birth is due to external influences, and not necessarily an innate quality).

 

The point I am trying to make though (and most people understood it and actually took a stance on it) is exposing young children to such a gay suggestive contents is wrong and harmful. Tolerance has nothing to do with it. This is a badly chosen matter and it can actually be objected on many grounds. Hating, or badmouthing as you try to disguise it in your creative writing, is not my forte! I don’t subscribe to the notion that sins deaden hearts eternally or prevent moral reform. In the other words there is always a hope that sinners could recover from their wicked ways and find guidance hence there’s no point in hating a potential Muslim from my perspective. But it seems that you are utterly confused and failed to distinguish between protesting against a particular wrongdoing and expressing repulsiveness about it AND hating certain group or category of sinners. The two are different yaa Xaaji!

 

Despite what the nincompoops that are quick to brand whoever does not agree with their stances say, my points were clear, saaxib. The substance was all their if you stop being stubborn for a minute and read it with an open heart and mind. I shall not bore you with a long speech (or creative writing). I will instead answer your question that it is indeed wrong to teach five-year-olds about homosexuality. However, it is only wrong in my book and yours not in democratic, secular and multicultural societies.

The hate message, by the way, was not aimed at you for I have not seen any hatred in your words. The issue of ‘natural’ and ‘unnatural’ is what I picked you up on.

 

Again, I repeat, the powers that be (which don’t happen to be Muslim) have decided it’s ok to teach children about homosexuality. I feel no need to do summersaults and flail my arms about in protest, because this, truly, does not come as a big shock.

I was right that you were the only Integrationist I knew that would welcome the practise of gay and lesbianism, even to the minds of innocent kids!

 

You are now revealing yourself publicly! :mad:

[Zafir]

^^Look at this hasty wadaad personalizing issues.

 

JB , you didn’t catch my drift, and Ng was somewhat right I think I am only as good as you my brother.

[Ms DD]

Ngonge

 

Lets see

 

This is democratic country. We can lobby and try to change policies. After all we are law abiding, tax paying citizens who have as much right as the next person. Yaa inoo diidey inaan wax tabano? Who took away the right? It appears to be you Ngonge.

 

Originally posted by NGONGE:

"Your protest will not make a difference. In fact you’ll be rejected and vilified"

I beg to differ here my liberal friend. Going through the proper channeles with likeminded people (including non-muslims who are very much against this) would go a long way to make a change. Didnt put you down as a defeatest.

 

Originally posted by NGONGE:

"quite normal and probable in a secular society"

Secular society which prides itself in democratic process. The possibility of making an actual change may be slim but it is route that is open for all of us.

[Shakti]

Fairy about the fairies.. Now that’s something that I did not anticipate for ( a moment to vomit please )

As a mother of 6 kids (may god help those children) I will not stand for this absurdity. I pay $200 a month for their kung-fu classes.. 4 what? So we can live in harmony with these punching bags. No way jose… my kids need their punching bags..okey :mad:

Its bad enough we know they exist among us, now we r letting them 2 wave their fairy hands n smack us with a lesson on tolerance? These fairies will not be tolerated anymore!! (akhus there goes my breakfast.)

[NGONGE]

Cambarow & Changed:

Let me cut a long story short. Read up on Section 28! It's an issue that's been taking place for the past 20 years.

 

Charlatan,

If I ever decide to be gay I'll only accept you as my, err, what's the feminine person in a gay relationship called?