Pro-Gay books for 5 year olds?

[Fiqikhayre]

Xiin at it again. You must always wait for the right moment to strike your ignorant and utter garbage which in your eyes is some kind of righteous intervention.

 

You're a ignorant man Xiin, because I clearly outlined and pointed out to the gallery, why I could not allow Ngonge's blasphemous and mocking post to stand unopposed in a Muslim fora like this and I clearly told you, that this mans beliefs shall not be regarded as anything more but a utter fallacious and absurd belief and I managed to do that. Ngonge's concessions was forced because otherwise he would have succeeded to pass on his clearly ignorant and wrong beliefs as something that is right in theological terms, which is not. So why are you refusing for his wrong beliefs to be corrected?

 

I defended my lords name from his fallacious attribution and ascribing of Allaahs name to something that he wrongly attributed and ascribed towards him. On the other hand he managed to mock Allaah by questioning his hikmah and on top of that being blasphemous as well by pointing out that homsexuality was 'natural, innate and inherent'. So what is your oppostion, that he should have been left unopposed?

 

He had to be refuted and put on his rightful place and I certainly did that. I made him concede and thus highlight to the gallery his false and blasphemous belief. I had a right to do that and I did challenge him on his fallacious belief and Al-Hamdulillaah I succeed in proving them to be utterly false and wrong.

 

Adeer, Allaah does not hesitate from the truth and when something blasphemous and wrong is attributed and ascribed to him, then I have the right to defend and clear my deities name from that falsehood, fallacious attribution and blasphemous belief ascribed to him.

 

So where are the emotions you're describing? Adeer this is not about 'moderating emotions' and you know it, so cease your ignorant and to no avail attempts of wanting to trivialise the issue at hand.

 

Ngonge committed a gross errorand mistake and you know it and now you're saying that such fallacious belief cannot be corrected and refuted? Come clear about your real opposition. Don't go in circles.

 

I wonder why you don't want such fallacious beliefs to be refuted and proven to be utterly wrong and absurd. I can only wonder about that.

[ElPunto]

^Let's just give it up dear lads I think the relevant points have been made repeatedly

[xiinfaniin]

^^ThePoint, I hope you don’t mind if I entice our Drama King to even wonder more about Xiin!

 

Yonis, I don’t doubt your intentions. But your style stinks adeer. You come out as a one who lacks the most basic Islamic manners! Little knowledge hurts its bearer comes to mind! And I may leave it at that.

 

Btw, do you think your taunts about NG have probably destroyed whatever good you’ve done in the course of this discussion?

[Caano Geel]

come man, leave yonis be, he's made his point, this is just an invitation for another 3 pages

[Fiqikhayre]

***[Edited] Now it has changed 'into my style' and 'my taunting of Ngonge'. Adeer I told the truth and the truth should not be hesitated from.

 

This is something, you tried earlier and it won't work and cut this time as well. Ngonge ridiculed himself, when he uttered and outed his fallacious and ignorant belief of his and I put him in his right place with regard to his absurd belief.

 

My conduct was right and nobody can say, I was too harsh or trying to degrade or disgrace Ngonge here. The conduct I pursued was in my eyes right and I believe the only way, Ngogne would own up and admit to his absurd and fallacious belief.

 

So tell me, what have I hurt him with, telling the truth and what the reality is? Now, tell me. I shall wait in expectation inshallah.

[xiinfaniin]

^^Yonis, did you not accuse him with blasphemy(سب الدين, عدم احترام المقدسات‏)?

[Fiqikhayre]

***[Edited] Yes, and that is tauting him? Did he not commit an act of blasphemy in your eyes? Rememeber blasphemy is disrespecting God or other sacred things related to the religion and Ngonge not only blasphemed but also mocked Allaah when he suggested that 'homosexuality' was 'natural, inherent and innate'.

 

He ascribed and attributed to my deity a false belief and then he had also managed to mock Allaah's hikmah by saying that 'Allaah did not rationlise the prohibition of homosexuality' and again in his own words he said 'that there are no great logical explanations for such bans but we realise that it’s not our place (as Muslims) to question Allah’s commands.’

 

He furthermore says mockingly that 'Sexual urges have no default positions. They fall into all sorts of styles and categories and all can be argued to be normal. The only reason that straight relationships are considered ‘natural’ is because of procreation and religious requirements.’

 

Furthermore he ignorantly says to top if off:

 

Originally by Ngonge: the story of Sodom & Gomorrah the actions of those people were referred to as a sin (or Faaxisha in Arabic). It was not referred to as unnatural!…..It is simply wrong because we, as Muslims, have been prohibited by our faith from indulging in it.

So, all this words and fallacious beliefs are not blasphemous (showing disrespect for god and sacred things) but an act of respect and endearment towards Allaah and his religion, then?

 

Answer those or as usual continue with your drivel. The gallery should be our witness inshallah and they shall judge upon us, who is right and who is wrong.

[xiinfaniin]

^^Unlike you, I hold NGONGE to be another Muslim who respects Allah’s laws and complies with it as much as he can! Suggesting that the actions of quumi luudh tend to originate from a natural deviation and it’s inherently defective in desire is not necessarily a blasphemous act. It’s however a matter I disagree with on many grounds. As I pointed out in an earlier post, I believe man was borne in a fitrah and was brought forth in state of natural purity. That itself is a divine claim, mind you, and an article of faith for me.

 

We are Muslims first and not logicians adeer. If one of us suggests that Allah’s laws are above reasoning and it need be complied on the basis of faith, I don’t see him committing a blasphemous act or mocking Allah’s wisdom as you allege! In fact, there are greater theological matters where only faith, and not reasoning and rationalization, offer the answer and rightly so. What irks me is not that you’ve refuted NG’s weak point but it’s the fact you’ve put the man and his faith on trial. It’s the fact that you’ve liberally accused him with all sorts of faith-nullifying stuff (a person who’s blasphemous and shows no respect for Allah’s sacred concepts and teachings is out of Islamic circle, mind you). You see adeer, dolling out labels with weighty theological consequences is indication of a troubled character yaa Yonis. Needlessly to say that one can hardly take you serious when you habitually dwell in that sickening domain! Give it up adeer. It was the nation of Iran yesterday that you put out of the Islamic ring; you are doing to NGONGE unknowingly!

 

If I were to assume that you really meant to educate the brother and sincerely wanted to right his wrongs, the manner and the style you presented yourself suggests otherwise and I cant help but detect the inadequacies of your efforts. What is the point of debating from an Islamic perspective yaa Yonis? If it’s to help a brother see the right path, and forego other more convenient paths for it, you are far from the mark adeer. For that, you might be better in penning your opinions in a more secular fashion saaxiib!

[Fiqikhayre]

I can see you have resorted in trivialising the issue at hand here again. No one said Ngonge was an unbeliever but I told you that he had committed a wrong, when he implied homosexuality being natural and thus part of the human fitrah and for you, now to come here and commit a distortion is something I shall not accept.

 

You said:

 

‘As I pointed out in an earlier post, I believe man was borne in a fitrah and was brought forth in state of natural purity. That itself is a divine claim, mind you, and an article of faith for me.’

 

^^^That is what I mean, an article of faith for you and me but not for Ngonge. That's why I said he committed an act of disrespect towards Allaah and our sacred religion by implying that the fitrah, you and me hold in such high regards has homosexuality in it, as argued by Ngonge.

 

Is that an act of blasphemy or not? And again let me make it clear with ‘blasphemy’ I mean an act of disrespect towards my creator and other sacred things from my religion.

 

Tell me, is Ngonge guilty here? Yes or No?

 

You say:

 

'Suggesting that the actions of quumi luudh tend to originate from a natural deviation and it’s inherently defective in desire is not necessarily a blasphemous act.'

 

Adeer if that not an act of blasphemy what is it then? I believe, that it is an act of disrespect towards Allaah and his religion and if it was not done out of ignorance, it was done deliberately and that would be an act of clear blasphemy.

 

You continue saying:

 

'It’s however a matter I disagree with on many grounds. As I pointed out in an earlier post, I believe man was borne in a fitrah and was brought forth in state of natural purity. That itself is a divine claim, mind you, and an article of faith for me.'

 

So what do you make of someone suggesting and ascribing to Allaah a fallacious belief by saying that homosexuality is part of that 'natural purity' me and you hold so sacred?

 

Do you believe it is an act of respect and endearment towards Allaah? I do not hold Ngonge as an unbeliever but I believe that he is someone who has gone astray and someone who ascribed and attributed to Allaah a great sin (the worst sin) as being part of the natural purity and fitrah Allaah has instilled in his creation and you're speaking off. How can you say, that Ngonge does not engage in an act of blasphemy, when he clearly repeats his fallacious and absurd belief and does not want to renounce them, although he has been shown proof and overwhelming evidence? He suggests and beliefs that ‘homosexuality is part of the human natural inclination, predisposition and that natural purity you're talking about, so how can you reconcile those with your beliefs of every ‘man borne in a fitrah and brought forth in state of natural purity? He has conceded but still maintains his fallacious belief. Answer that question Xiin.

 

What else or good has he done Xiin, apart from ascribing a fallacious belief to Allaah and mocking his hikmah? Did he ascribe to Allaah something good? No, he ascribed and attributed his fallacious belief to Allaah, although it has been shown to him, that his beliefs are wrong and fallacious and he admit to it, but, here is the crucial but although he concedes to my argument but 'he never actually renounced his belief based on falsehood. Although he admits that when he is faced with powerful and overwhelming proof, he has to concede especially when he does not have a valid and strong argument to counter such powerful proof and evidence. So what is stopping him to renounce his wrong belief, Xiin?

 

Adeer the term blasphemous I have used because Ngonge's earlier mistake could be said ‘it was a ignorant mistake on his behalf’ and your intervention clearly suggests that you believe, that Ngonge was lead by ignorance but if that was the case, why does he still continue in his fallacious belief, as can be witnessed from this statement below?

 

Originally by Ngonge: I'd be lying if I said that my opinion has suddenly changed and that I now believe homosexuality to be unnatural (in the way it's being presented on this thread). However, I'm neither juvenile nor a simpleton. When those I debate with start substantiating their arguments, I am left with no choice but to concede. Especially that I have no strong argument to counter such powerful proof!

[Fiqikhayre]

Now let's put that against what you believe:

 

'I believe man was borne in a fitrah and was brought forth in state of natural purity. That itself is a divine claim, mind you, and an article of faith for me.'

 

^^^An article of faith for you but Ngonge admits that he still thinks and believes that homosexuality is 'natural'. So what gives if I may ask you?

 

He says that he doesn't have a strong argument to continue his fallacious belief of homosexuality being 'natural' and thus admitting to have to concede although grudgingly and bitterly.

 

Do you know what disturbed me Adeer? It was the mere fact, that after his concession and waving of the white flag, he continued saying ‘he would be lying if he said that his opinion changed suddenly and that he now believed homosexuality to be unnatural, although earlier he admitted to my argument presented to him that homosexuality was unknown amongst the mankind and jinn until the people of Prophet Luut engaged themselves in this wicked evil and worst sin according to the holy Quraan.

 

Here it is:

 

Originally by Ngonge: I'd be lying if I said that my opinion has suddenly changed and that I now believe homosexuality to be unnatural (in the way it's being presented on this thread). However, I'm neither juvenile nor a simpleton. When those I debate with start substantiating their arguments, I am left with no choice but to concede. Especially that I have no strong argument to counter such powerful proof!

^^^Adeer what say you? The above made me angry and it only confirmed to me that his original blunder was not out of ignorance but belief. He has been shown the truth but still maintains his blasphemous belief of his?

 

Sure, you will tell the crowd, that Ngonge was at fault again here and that he erred a second time. No?

 

The other thing about the way he mocked Allaah and questioned his hikmah Adeer, you know that Allaah only prohibits the things that are harmful and evil to its creation and that Allaah never bans good. Also Allaah provides and gives us specific reasons to why he outlawed certain things from us. Especially so with the practise of homosexuality. That fellow called Ngonge is implying that:

 

'Islam bans homosexuality because, simply, it’s the creator’s want'.

 

'there are no great logical explanations for such bans but we realise that it’s not our place (as Muslims) to question Allah’s commands.’

 

And he still maintains that fallacious belief by saying:

 

Originally by Ngonge: the story of Sodom & Gomorrah the actions of those people were referred to as a sin (or Faaxisha in Arabic). It was not referred to as unnatural!…..It is simply wrong because we, as Muslims, have been prohibited by our faith from indulging in it.

Originally by Ngonge: Sexual urges have no default positions. They fall into all sorts of styles and categories and all can be argued to be normal.

The only reason that straight relationships are considered ‘natural’ is because of procreation and religious requirements.’

He continues saying that 'there are no great logical explanations for its ban but we realise that it’s not our place (as Muslims) to question Allah’s commands.’

 

Ofcourse Xiin, you must believe that there are 'no great logical explanations for the ban of homosexuality' as well? No, if you don't say something about it then I shall take it as a 'Yes' and that you too believe 'that there are no great logical explanations for the ban of homosexuality'.

[Fiqikhayre]

We all know that all of Ngonge statements and quotes above are designed, to ascribe and attribute to Allaah 'that he made homosexuality 'natural' and thus part of the human fitrah he has instilled in his creation such as human-beings. We clearly know that Allaah forbid the act of homosexuality because of it's harmfulness to his creation and because 'Allaah did not intend and instill into his creation such an act, because Allaah made it natural for men to use women and women to use men and that's why he created Adam and then he created from Adam, Xaawa and that is the natural purity and inclination and predisposition Allaah has intended for his creation. Homosexuality was unknown in Allaahs' creation and no-one engaged in it from the mankind and the Jinn and Allaah said 'Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?”

 

We can clearly see from that verse, that it is indeed the worst sin and far from being 'natural' or being part of the human fitrah (natural inclination and predisposition), so where are the folks that continue saying ’ Homosexuality is natural and there are no great logical explanations for its ban'?

 

Saying that 'there are no great logical explanations for its ban, would deny the simple fact and reality, that 'homosexuality' goes against that natural purity and fitrah Allaah the great has installed and instilled in us human beings and exactly because for that reason (that it goes against the natural purity and predisposition instilled in human beings) 'homosexuality' becomes harmful to human-beings and thus its outlaw and prohibition by Allaah the great.

 

Allaah the exalted says in his noble book:

 

'Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before!

 

"You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people."

 

^Allaah did not prohibit anything but it is harmful to his creation and Allaah only bans and outlaws evil but never good. This fellow however maintains and mocks Allahs's hikmah by saying 'there are no great logical explanations for its ban (homosexuality that is)'.

 

^^^Can you see that wicked and senseless belief and absurd falsehood expressed here? Although we know that there is great sense and logic with everything Allah does and for this pitiful fellow to say 'that there's no great logical explanation to its ban (homosexuality) is not only a fallacious and wrongful attribution towards Allaah but also a mocking and blasphemous questioning of Allaahs hikmah.

 

Everything Allaah bans and outlaws is full of hikmah (wisdom) and logic and this guy reiterates and sings very loudly in a Muslim forum 'there are no great logical explanations for the ban of homosexuality but we realise that it’s not our place (as Muslims) to question Allah’s commands.’

 

^Although we clearly know, to why it was banned and the hikmah and reasons behind it. The reason why it is prohibited is because it goes against the natural inclination and human fitrah that Allah has instilled and intended for his creation. Now I know, why Ngonge is saying that 'there is no great logical explanations for its ban' because if he would admit to the logic behind its ban (because it's against the human fitrah and the fitrah of all creation and therefore harmful to human-beings), then he would have confessed against himself, which would mean he would have to give up on his fallacious and wrong belief of homosexuality being 'natural', which he simply doesn‘t want to.

 

So what say you Xiin?

[Cara.]

I didn't know that "fitrah" meant free of sin. I thought it meant humans where pre-disposed to worship Allah, that's all. Isn't sinning a natural consequence of free will? Are there any humans who can be said to be completely free of sin? If not, then doesn't that mean it's part of human fitrah to sin in some way?

[Fanisha]

^^^ Reasoning with Sakhar (dhagax in Arabic) is almost as bad as banging your head against the wall. You should have a headache by now.

[Pi]

I hope I don't ever lose an argument to Sakhar. He would still beat me over the head with a baseball bat even after I concede.

[Taliban]

Originally posted by Fanisha:

Reasoning with Sakhar (dhagax in Arabic) is almost as bad as banging your head against the wall. You should have a headache by now.

Sakhar is OK, but is too repetitive.