Pro-Gay books for 5 year olds?

[Khalaf]

NGONGE, thanks bro u want to make Somalis c things from the secular perspective of these societies, and it took 7 pgs of arguement, but one can not convince Somalis/muslims and even majority of westerners (at least in da states don’t know how cats do in UK) that it is appropriate to teach kids young as 5 about homosexuality. Changed put it nicely, we are part of society we dont just "move" na mean.

 

But I am more interested in the pointsviews of muslims such as u and Canno more so then the subject here. Sxb NG few pages back you made claims, n I come back here thinking u will own up to those claims u made or dismiss them, but u since have not let me remind u and and c if u own up I highlight two main points:

 

Heres your quotes:

"Islam bans homosexuality because, simply, it’s the creator’s want."

"there are no great logical explanations for such bans but we realise that it’s not our place (as Muslims) to question Allah’s commands.’

MKA replied: "So he’s saying the prohibition of Homosexuality is without Hikmah and that Allaah banned this evil practise because in his logic ‘Allaah just felt like banning it ‘without giving a great deal of logical explanation’ hence we‘re required to just follow it"

 

Point 2: and I quote

‘Sexual urges have no default positions. They fall into all sorts of styles and categories and all can be argued to be normal. The only reason that straight relationships are considered ‘natural’ is because of procreation and religious requirements.’

MKA asked u: So what is Ngonge here saying that Allaah has instilled in us the fitrah of homosexuality?(that was good one yaa Yoonis )

 

For the entire post against your claims c page 7, Sxb u should own up to your comments or dismiss them at least.

[Che -Guevara]

Che,

I was just giving another prosepect , as for what i might have in common with 'them', well, you rather not count.

Jb.....All views add up to healthy discussion but the striking similarities between you and Mullah Brigade is amazing. You guys are the oppisite poles, but seem to be working towards the same goals ie regulating people's behavior.

 

People here are confusing bigorty with institutionalised prejudice. As long as gays don't face institutionalised prejudice, I don't see the need for state sanctioned behavior modification classes.

[NGONGE]

^^^ I dismiss MKA's straw man arguments. Sometimes, khalaf akhi (how is that for pious affectation), some twaddle is not worth of a reply. With MKA, I enjoy toying with him in harmless topics like numbers and billions. God only knows what nonsense he’ll come up with if I had a real religious discussion with him. So, no, he was not worth a reply.

 

For you though, I say READ and comprehend what I wrote not MKA’s interpretation of it.

 

When the blind lead the blind they clatter into everything and make a hell of a racket.

 

Wa billahi el tawfiiq, akhi (Yes, I'm mocking you).

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

For you though, I say READ and comprehend what I wrote not MKA’s interpretation of it.

why mock akhi, mocking is haraam no? my brother tell me how am one is susposed to comprehend this:

 

"Islam bans homosexuality because, simply, it’s the creator’s want.

"there are no great logical explanations for such bans but we realise that it’s not our place (as Muslims) to question Allah’s commands."

 

^^^Again what do u mean by this? other then how we intterpreted?

 

Two u said: ‘Sexual urges have no default positions. They fall into all sorts of styles and categories and all can be argued to be normal. The only reason that straight relationships are considered ‘natural’ is because of procreation and religious requirements.’

 

 

^^^How can u argue homonimo is "normal"? Remember we are muslims here and we believe Allah created everyone with fitrah, are u suggesting for some at least Allaah has instilled in them the fitrah of homosexuality?

 

 

Come on now NG, help me understand cause i am being sincere sxb, no pun, ulterior motives from my end.

[NGONGE]

What logical explanations can you, as a mere mortal, present that can’t be argued against? I know you find it hard to understand and that MK has confused you with his babble but it still remains the creator’s want! Since you profess to be a Muslim and declare your total submission to Allah, why bother second-guessing? Just submit and accept that you can’t always understand why we are commanded to do certain things. Is it really that hard to understand?

 

As for homosexuality being normal! Well, that was not my argument at all. I said it was natural, innate and inherent. I based my argument on the fact that sexual urges have no default positions. If I put you in a desert island with no females for company, I daresay you’ll be tempted to abuse the local sheep (no offence intended). In fact, you may enjoy abusing the sheep even if there were women there. Your sexual urge would be paramount and would dominate everything you do. Surely it makes no sense when we keep saying that Man is only better than animals by virtue of having a brain, yet argue at the same time that there is an actual default sexual position! Did I tell you about my gay dog? I had one you know. He was male and was gay.

 

ps

I see silly statements, I mock. Luckily, haram or halal is not in your hands, akhi.

[xiinfaniin]

^^Khalaf, you cant be serious in wanting NGONGE to refute Yonis’s liberal interpretation of NGONGE’s simple statement adeer. That would be quite a digression from the original discussion!

 

No one has thus far claimed to be in favor of the said school move to include its reading curriculum homo friendly books/stories! Some wonder the impact such a reading could have on children and others think our protest in misplaced as majority dont share with the values we want to uphold!

 

But most of us still insist that such protests are needed, and at times necessary, to make our voice heard and to challenge what we think, in this case, a minority agenda! That's all folks.

 

Midda kale i think it's time for us to shun from this habit of discussing posters' intents and instead learn to address points they raise!

[Pujah]

By Tracy Dell'Angela

Tribune staff reporter

 

March 10, 2007

 

A health teacher made 8th graders read aloud explicit questions about oral sex and masturbation during a sex-education lesson at a suburban school this week, outraging parents who demanded the teacher be disciplined.

.

.

Parents complained and the city councils were forced to suspended him and not renew his contract for next year.

 

Parents do make difference IF they are involved in their childs school.

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

What logical explanations can you, as a mere mortal, present that can’t be argued against? I know you find it hard to understand and that MK has confused you with his babble but it still remains the creator’s want! Since you profess to be a Muslim and declare your total submission to Allah, why bother second-guessing? Just submit and accept that you can’t always understand why we are commanded to do certain things. Is it really that hard to understand?

Sxb NG yes it is hard to understand, because I am talking to u yaa NG a fellow Muslim, whom I suspose has understanding of Quran the way of Islam. For u to suggest certain actions (in this case homosexuality) are banned simply because its “creator’s want” and there are no real logical explanations says to me (and um sure many others), that Islam is not logical, and more questions the Hikmah of Allah Most Great. I ask u why would Allah Most Great ban certain actions such as homosexuality if there were not logical explanations? Not my mere mortal explanations, but the explanations from the Quran, which states indeed homosexuality and other sins negatively, and is harmful to society. Do u not agree with this? Or are u just pulling ppl legs as IB says?

 

As for homosexuality being normal! Well, that was not my argument at all. I said it was natural, innate and inherent. I based my argument on the fact that sexual urges have no default positions. If I put you in a desert island with no females for company, I daresay you’ll be tempted to abuse the local sheep (no offence intended). In fact, you may enjoy abusing the sheep even if there were women there. Your sexual urge would be paramount and would dominate everything you do. Surely it makes no sense when we keep saying that Man is only better than animals by virtue of having a brain, yet argue at the same time that there is an actual default sexual position! Did I tell you about my gay dog? I had one you know. He was male and was gay.

Sxb I am sure some dudes would abuse sheeps, donkeys, ect as some also abuse their own children.....but are u telling me this is part of natural sexual urges, which is aight? Or u will take the islamic perspective, that Allah Most High created every human-being with fitrah, man for woman, woman for man, and it is shaydan that beautifies these sickness such as homosexuality man for man, just as shaydan could “beautify” and give “sexual urges” to a father for his own daughter. What do u think yaa NG?

 

ps

I see silly statements, I mock. Luckily, haram or halal is not in your hands, akhi.

]

No haram/halaal is not in ppls hands akhi, but what is haram and halal is outlined in the Quran and Sunnah.

[Fiqikhayre]

Khalaf don’t be surprised brother, if Ngonge isn’t going to try to address the things I refuted him in, because he has no valid contention. Now he wants to hide his fallacy by saying that we as Muslims should adhere to Allaah’s commandments (which was not at contention in the first place and universally accepted by Muslims) in order to pass on, his views that homosexuality is indeed something ‘natural’ in his eyes. He contradicts himself by saying that he never said it was ‘normal’ but that he said that it is ‘natural’, ‘innate’ and also ‘inherent’, Can you see the blunder and utter contradiction?

 

Now for Xiin to step in and to say that the discussion is being deviated from by my ‘liberal interpretation of NG's simple statement and post’ is not only another blunder but also intended to not pursue or discuss the fallacies and absurdities in Ngonge’s post. The other thing that Xiin brought up that one should not question poster’s intents and instead to ‘learn to address the points they raised’ is another poor attempt to deviate my original opposition to Ngonge’s wrong post. Where did I question his intention? I raised all the things he said and quoted them to refute them one by one with concrete and solid evidence, which he found difficult to deal with because I told and highlighted to him the simple truth of the matter. I have the moral right and responsibility to criticise what I do not agree with and that I did with Ngogne’s post, who is clearly saying that he thinks that homosexuality is ‘natural’ and that there are no other reasons and explanations to object to it other than that it is the will of Allaah the exalted. He tries to hide or not to be challenged on that by saying Allaah outlawed homosexuality and that ‘there are no great logical explanations to it’ and that we should submit to it. I disagreed with that notion. That’s why I refuted him with clear and concrete evidence, hence one by one his fallacies have been proven to be wrong, so what does he do?

 

Simple he wants to shut people’s opinions by changing the discourse of the opposition he is facing by hiding behind the following:

 

Since you profess to be a Muslim and declare your total submission to Allah, why bother second-guessing? Just submit and accept that you can’t always understand why we are commanded to do certain things. Is it really that hard to understand?

Who is second-guessing, brother khalaf? Now it has resorted to ‘submission’. What shall we submit too? Well I got it here:

 

Originally by Ngonge: As for homosexuality being normal! Well, that was not my argument at all. I said it was natural, innate and inherent. I based my argument on the fact that sexual urges have no default positions. If I put you in a desert island with no females for company, I daresay you’ll be tempted to abuse the local sheep (no offence intended). In fact, you may enjoy abusing the sheep even if there were women there. Your sexual urge would be paramount and would dominate everything you do. Surely it makes no sense when we keep saying that Man is only better than animals by virtue of having a brain, yet argue at the same time that there is an actual default sexual position! Did I tell you about my gay dog? I had one you know. He was male and was gay.

^^^That is what he want’s us to submit too. That ‘homosexuality is natural, innate and inherent' and other senseless balderdash nonsense and drivel. I picked him up on that and I said that I disagre with his post. I took his fallacious statements and refuted them one by one. I also destroyed his argument of homosexuality being something ‘natural’ or ‘normal’ (normal and natural have the same meaning).

 

So if you Xiin, agree with the above notion of homosexuality being 'natural, then say so, otherwise please don’t bring your personal vendetta into this discussion. Ngonge put up a post full of senseless and balderdash drivel and nonsense where he argues that ‘homosexuality is natural’ and that it ‘occurs naturally’, whereas I refuted him and taught him that it is not 'innate nor inherent and far from being normal and natural' with concrete and clear cut evidence.

 

So come out of the closet and tell us why it is wrong for me to raise that issue and catch him out in that fallacy of his? If someone makes mocking, senseless and foolish claims, then they ought to be refuted and put on the right path.

[Khalaf]

^^^Right on brah...but u c dat also, adeer xiin says: "liberal interpretation of NGONGE’s simple statement adeer." .....what simple statement yaa xiin NG basically said homonimo wa natural/normal, and two questioned the Hikmah of Allah Most Great by saying there are no real logical explanations....I think NG should either own up to those claims or dismiss them. simple.

[Fiqikhayre]

Originally by Ngonge: I dismiss MKA's straw man arguments. Sometimes, khalaf akhi (how is that for pious affectation), some twaddle is not worth of a reply. With MKA, I enjoy toying with him in harmless topics like numbers and billions. God only knows what nonsense he’ll come up with if I had a real religious discussion with him. So, no, he was not worth a reply.

 

For you though, I say READ and comprehend what I wrote not MKA’s interpretation of it.

I know Ngonge, that you have no valid contention on this issue and that you have been shown the truth of the matter rather eloquently by me! The same way I destroyed your pitiful attempts in the other thread, where you could not even bring up one valid contention, although many of your friends in here tried to motivate you but nevertheless you were embarrassed and woefully re-schooled. I put that to you thinking of having a valid contention but soon it became quite evident that you didn’t and that’s why I gave you a fitting lesson, which you still seem to awfully remember. You did not raise anything meaningful in that discussion and soon your wailings could be heard from many far places. I will not even touch on your cries and how awfully you were tutored.

 

But this time I guess that you learned from your mistake and thus decided to rather be silent, then there was no avenue or way to rebuttal what I said. I did not bring stories ‘about a gay dog I used to have’ as evidence nor did I try to deviate the issue and thus mislead the gallery by saying ‘don’t talk just submit to it’. It showed how desperate you are for the issue not to be discussed because if it would be, then

it would become quite evident for all to see, the blunders you made and the senseless fallacies and deceitful falsehood you wanted to pass on as something ‘natural, innate and inherent’.

[Taliban]

In this topic, there's a poster who uses 2 different usernames. The poster has been using those usernames for years. Side-kicking for each username, among other functions, is the primary function of using those usernames. I have figured out this the first few weeks after I started posting.

[Fiqikhayre]

Orignally by Ngonge: What logical explanations can you, as a mere mortal, present that can’t be argued against? I know you find it hard to understand and that MK has confused you with his babble but it still remains the creator’s want! Since you profess to be a Muslim and declare your total submission to Allah, why bother second-guessing? Just submit and accept that you can’t always understand why we are commanded to do certain things. Is it really that hard to understand?

 

As for homosexuality being normal! Well, that was not my argument at all. I said it was natural, innate and inherent. I based my argument on the fact that sexual urges have no default positions. If I put you in a desert island with no females for company, I daresay you’ll be tempted to abuse the local sheep (no offence intended). In fact, you may enjoy abusing the sheep even if there were women there. Your sexual urge would be paramount and would dominate everything you do. Surely it makes no sense when we keep saying that Man is only better than animals by virtue of having a brain, yet argue at the same time that there is an actual default sexual position! Did I tell you about my gay dog? I had one you know. He was male and was gay.

Now Ngonge, let’s see if there aren’t any logical explanations ‘mere mortals’ provide that ‘couldn’t be argued with’. I like how Ngonge, when he is faced by difficulty, how he tries to escape from it. Very interesting. Now he believes ‘that all logical explanations by a mere mortals can be argued with’. Although he was talking to Khalaf there who was pinching him to own up to the fallacies he made and the subsequent rebuttal I provided him with, however it is quite interesting to see that Ngonge admits that every logical explanation could be argued with I suppose with ‘illogical counter explanations’ even if it defies logic. Well let him know that I provided him with more than ‘logical evidence by mere mortals’ and still he does not want to own up to his fallacy and absurdity. I guess this is the closest we get to him of admitting that he was simply wrong.

 

Inshallah I shall provide the things I said and the fallacies he made and the way I refuted them all one by one. Stay tuned. The gallery shall be our judgement and witness inshallah.

[xiinfaniin]

Yonis, you know that i do occasionally enjoy your amusing jests! With all fairness I do think you a point or two here but as always your Drama King character casts a shadow on what you are trying to say. The liberal interpretation that I was referring to is this statement of yours: So what is Ngonge here saying that Allaah has instilled in us the fitrah of homosexuality!

 

^^You see that kind of stretch is not healthy and puts the whole debate into confrontational mode!

 

Midda kale what personal vendeta are you talking about? I dont know you and i hardly take anything your cyber character writes serious! So aayar with the cuqdad adeer!

 

Khalaf, as always you struggle to make your voice heard clearly. You need no reps to raise a point in this discussion. It’s simple adeer. I don’t suspect any one is gay here. That’s why I wanted to stay with the central point of this discussion. I even told NG to answer the question to spare him further diversion! He did and I am satisfied with the answer he gave. CG doubts the impact of such reading stories could have but decidedly votes with me when it comes the core issue! As far as JB goes, I have bigger issues with him and should not bother him with this thing. Cara, an unusually intelligent nomad, is in league with JB so no need to reproach her stance on this particular issue! The majority of the posters agree so why dont you take that as a consensus and refrain from your law grade digs, i ask?

 

edt:

lol@Taliban

...please let the admin know. he should thank you for your detective work.

[Khalaf]

What low grade digs adeer? I agree with u its not cool to personalize subjects but I do believe that u and brother NG along with others here dismiss MKA's messages simply because u have something against the messenger from previous encounters, that’s how it comes across.(Edit: but he dont giva!...he rolls on wit it and inshallah will be back for the gallery to furthur refute the fallices, ....MKA give NG opportunity to come back horta )

 

 

But there are no low digs on my part, I know this is forum but the way I look at is adeer apart from those who clearly stated they are not Muslim, the others are my fellow ppl of faith whom i want to reason with, marka all I did was ask questions as I would do if we were face to face na mean.

 

Lets not personalize this subject between MKA and NG, but I would like NG (a Muslim) to own up to the claims he made, or man up and say they were simply in error.

 

Taliban: are u suggesting here me and MKA are the same person? .......dont insult the genious adeer.....MKA is cool cat big ups, mida kale why would we (considering u meant us) want two screen names and play those kind of games :confused: ......lame nooh