Afghan on trial for Christianity

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Pi:

You cant even seem to get your defintions straight.

Like what?

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

By what

criterion

have you

accepted

the

Qur’an

and

rejected

the

Sunnah

?

 

One is word of God, the other is not. Second, 1 was written, collected into 1 volume, very close to its original date of revelation AND has fewer 'narrators'. This is the selfsame method professional historians use to winnow reliable historical records from lesser ones, NOT mine! Third, the Sunnah contradicts God. I trust God more than anyone else, so I stick with what God said.

 

Those are just three criteria. Refute them or put up.

 

 

Every Muslim knows, except you, that it is the method of narrating how we got what we have (Qur’an & Sunnah).

 

 

This is just silly thing to say and egreciously wrong factually. According to Imam Bukhari, commenting on his collection hadiths, upward of 70% of hadiths had to be discarded as false. Meaning mostly fabricated and that was full 150-200 years after the death of the prophet. The Quran on the other hand collected into 1 volume by the 3rd Kaliphate, Uthman.

 

 

Competent and reliable men with unimpeachable integrity passed it down to us.

 

 

Your adolation of authority is noted but that won't help you win an arguement. What if they're wrong? You do know that very very intelligent men in the past believed very ****** things, right?

 

 

And you haven't addressed my question: why are you disobeying Allah's instructions in favour of alleged sayings of the prophet? Do you not trust God's knowledge and wisdom when he enjoined lashes instead of lapidation for adultery?

[Gabbal]

Xiin-

 

All you have to ask SB is does he pray and if yes, how?

 

Ninka inuu Muslim yahay iyo inuu doc-ka-yeer yahay intaa baad ku kala ogaan.

[RedSea]

Assalamu Calaykum.

 

This isn't directed towards anybody, but I just want to tell you that it's not wise to say anything about the religion if you have no knowledge of it, you should be asking questions instead of going into explaination of the difference between the Qur'an and the Hadith.

 

The Quran and the Hadith are the two sides of the same coin. The hadith is the words of the Prophet explaining in full detail the words of the all mighty. They are insaprateple, to seperate them is a huge error. Once again for those of you who are trying to make us believe the hadith has nothing to do with the Quran. The Quran and the hadith are in full agreement with each other to say otherwise is like saying Prophet Muhammed brought his own faith and his teachings disagreed with what is in the Quran. Be careful and fear Allah and don't sin by creating wrong ideas with your minds. Read the Quran and Hadith and learn them before you start exposing your arogance on public forum. The non believers don't dare to utter such things, some nomads have found it easy to say garbage they have in their minds and put out there for us to read, what a bunch of morons this place holds.

:mad:

Assalamu Calaykum.

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by HornAfrique:

Xiin-

 

All you have to ask SB is does he

pray and if yes, how?

That's the oldest trick in the book. Do you know how many times I heard that when asking about the aunthenticity of the Sunnah? It's a weak argument, because if the Sunnah (by way of Hadith) isn't aunthetic, that would make prayer statement not authentic as well.

 

I think this type of response is programmed into a lot of muslim minds when asked this q...

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Red Sea Casse:

Assalamu Calaykum.

 

This isn't directed towards anybody, but I just want to tell you that it's not wise to say anything about the religion if you have no knowledge of it, you should be asking questions instead of going into explaination of the difference between the Qur'an and the Hadith.

 

The Quran and the Hadith are the two sides of the same coin. The hadith is the words of the Prophet explaining in full detail the words of the all mighty. They are insaprateple, to seperate them is a huge error. Once again for those of you who are trying to make us believe the hadith has nothing to do with the Quran. The Quran and the hadith are in full agreement with each other to say otherwise is like saying Prophet Muhammed brought his own faith and his teachings disagreed with what is in the Quran. Be careful and fear Allah and don't sin by creating wrong ideas with your minds. Read the Quran and Hadith and learn them before you start exposing your arogance on public forum. The non believers don't dare to utter such things, some nomads have found it easy to say garbage they have in their minds and put out there for us to read, what a bunch of morons this place holds.

:mad:

Assalamu Calaykum.

Allah made us human being, some who are more inclined to search for the truth and not accept what their forefather's drilled into their head since birth. There is nothing wrong with asking VALID questions and pointing out things that don't make sense and demanding some answers. It's human nature!

[Jacpher]

Originally posted by Reality Check:

There is nothing wrong with asking VALID questions and pointing out things that don't make sense and demanding some answers. It's human nature!

So it is neither valid nor human nature to ask how one prays if they don't follow the hadiths? :confused:

[xiinfaniin]

RC, I thought you have pleaded the fifth .

 

HA, That’s very relevant Q as it relates to the significance of the Sunnah. But at this stage of the discussion I think it’s quite apparent that the man has no clothes.

 

But let me highlight few points nevertheless.

It’s really elementary knowledge for all Muslims that authenticity of the Qur’an partially hinges on the integrity and the character of Prophet Muhammad. It was him who brought this message to the masses. One can’t doubt the lawfulness of his actions and commands and yet seriously claim to have accepted the validity of the Qur’an. It just doesn’t add up. His, as it were, was a face that could not lie. Further more, Muhammad (scw) wasn’t just a mere messenger who handed down the message to us and vanished. Allah meant to clarify and expound the details of the Shariica through him. His sayings as well as his deeds were true representations of the word of Allah. In public and in private, his acts reflected that of the message he was chosen to deliver. If that weren’t the case we would’ve major crisis on our hands and this religion wouldn’t be complete. We wouldn’t know, for instance, how to pray or to fast. Qur’an is very clear on the role of prophet Muhammad. We are commanded to follow his example, imitate and try to be like him in submitting ourselves to the One he so passionately loved. So if one doubts the Sunnah, as I said before, that person is deemed to be a nonbeliever.

 

It may be difficult for outsiders to understand the dynamics of the Islamic jurisprudence but without elucidations of the prophet and the interpretations of the learned ulumaa, Qur’an verses alone don’t suffice. If one attempts to break off ranks with rest of the Ummah and disregard the standards, the processes, and the science of interpreting the Qur’an, one is destined to fall in the trap in which our SB finds himself in. One can’t freelance solemn matters such as the Islamic Shariica, and, in essence, reject some and accept some according to his/her taste. When one understands these basics then and only then one is fit to talk about the details of the Shariica. One can’t entertain, for instance, to dive in the depths of the intricacies of Islamic fiqh without first understanding its basic concepts. Such is the dilemma I (we all face) face when confronted with the likes of SB who, with all their intelligence and burning curiosity, want to draw a circle that can’t be squared. He asserts that Sunnah of stoning to death contradicts with the Qur’anic verse that decrees the lashes for adulterers, for instance, without first understanding the concepts of khaas and caam or mujmil and mufasil or other important concepts of the science of tafsiir. No wonder he sees contradictions when there is none.

 

Enough said.

[Khalaf]

Brother Xiin, believe it or not the likes of SB are many even among the American “Muslim scholars†of today. I went to a lecture held by the MSA, and we brought a lecturer, an intelligent brother. First the house was packed due the controversy of this issue, whenever we want to discuss the seerah of the prophet (saw), prayer or ibadah in Islam there are few brothers/sisters that come, talk about apostasy, jihad, the veil and there is no seat unfilled.

 

To summarize this brother discussed how in Islam there is no compulsion in religion; the right way is distinct from error-true. He said how there was no verse in the Qu’ran which condemns one who leaves the fold of Islam, and that the unbelievers will be punished in Hellfire. That there were no instances during the Prophets (saw) time where someone who converted was executed, he mentioned the different opinions of the scholars, and he was of the opinion that to execute was unjust and wrong.

 

The non-Muslims in the house were all up in arms, shocked that shariah could even suggest someone who changes belief (from the “heart†right?), should get capital punishment. As a Muslim in that lecture I felt pissed by this brother who gave the lecture and how he responded to their questions. He was appeasing to them, trying to find common ground with the non-Muslims-saying freedom of religion-which is tru but no mention of Hadith/Fiqh in detail. Whenever he said Isa he would say peace be with him, but when he said Muhammad-nothing. SubhanAllah the cowardness.

 

The house got heated. I am not knowledgeable so I just watched irritated, remembering the Hadith: The Blood of a Muslim may not be legally split other than in one of three [instances]: the married person who commits adultery, a life for a life; and one who forsakes his religion and abandons the community. {related by Al-Bukhari and Muslim]. There are so many opinions, rulings, fataws, huge library of alim from all these scholars, saying different thing these days. I know without doubt Islam is most merciful, n the 4 Imams school of thought were all saying same thing-but this has confused me. May Allah Guide Us.

 

It all comes down to this tho our ways, our traditions, our religion and its laws will seem strange to people, but by no means should we compromise Islam just to appease people and find common ground with them if we do that we will be destroyed.

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

RC

, I thought you have pleaded the fifth

.

Pleading the 5th means that I wish not to incriminate myself.

 

I've already answered your question, so why do you mean by this statement?

[sigma]

at least he got a "trial"

[Khadir]

The Quran and the Hadith are the two sides of the same coin. The hadith is the words of the Prophet explaining in full detail the words of the all mighty. They are insaprateple, to seperate them is a huge error.

Dude, HOW WILL YOU SAY THAT THE HADITH ARE THE WORDS OF THE PROPHET? MAY ALLAH GUIDE YOU, BUT THAT IS THE BIGGEST MISCONCEPTION I HAVE EVER HEARD FROM A MUSLIM. you seriously need a study on the progress of Islam and the history of hadith collection. The hadith cannot be said to be the words of the Prophet, they were collected and gathered 200 years after his death. And if you check credible sources on the biograpy of the prophet, you will know that he refused to have his sayings written down so that it would not replace the Quran. All through the reign of the Khaliphs, Abu Baker, Omar, Ali and even Uthman you will find that the written sayings of the prophet were forbidden. don't be deluded by uneducated scholars, the collection of hadith were influenced by all sorts cultural, and religious confusion steming from the diverse communities of muslims, pagans, and jews and Christains alike.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

One can’t doubt the lawfulness of his actions and commands and yet seriously claim to have accepted the validity of the Qur’an.

 

You are either being shamefully mendacious, obscurantist or have serious comprehension impediments. I have repeatedly stated I don't question the actions or commands of the prophet of Islam, only don't trust the sources containing his alleged sayings and doings. I have provided plenty reasons AS WELL AS evidence/s. Such as the discrepancy between the prophet's (scw) punishment of adulterers (lapidation) found in the Sunnah and Allah's punishment (lashes). I poignantly called you to account for this glaring contradiction -- if the Sunnah is accurate record of what the prophet did and siad, how come some of it contradicts Allah's words? But rather than address this issue, which goes to the heart of the matter -- the impeccability of the Sunnah --, you completely ignore it altogether.

 

Nimble verbal legerdemain and sophistry aint gonna decieve me. I know why you're avoiding addressing my question. But guess what? I will not let you off the hook till you do. It's your call! I'm sure there are other people who'll benefit from you addressing this issue.

 

 

but without elucidations of the prophet and the interpretations of the learned ulumaa, Qur’an verses alone don’t suffice.

 

 

That is close to committing shirk. Allah's words more than suffice and what he couldn't explain in the most prestinely clear words can't be explained by either the Ulema or the prophet Maxammed (scw). And who are you to tell Allah whether his words are sufficiently comprehensible or not? You're walking on very thin ice, proceed cautiously.

 

 

One can’t freelance solemn matters such as the Islamic Shariica, and, in essence, reject some and accept some according to his/her taste.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but that is the reality of the world we live. There is NO Sharia per se but Afghani Sharia, your Sharia, Iranian Sharia, Saudi Sharia, Sudanese Sharia, Malaysian Sharia... there are so many, which Sharia is that you keep mentioning?

[Khalaf]

Dude, HOW WILL YOU SAY THAT THE HADITH ARE THE WORDS OF THE PROPHET? MAY ALLAH GUIDE YOU, BUT THAT IS THE BIGGEST MISCONCEPTION I HAVE EVER HEARD FROM A MUSLIM. you seriously need a study on the progress of Islam and the history of hadith collection. The hadith cannot be said to be the words of the Prophet, they were collected and gathered 200 years after his death. And if you check credible sources on the biograpy of the prophet, you will know that he refused to have his sayings written down so that it would not replace the Quran. All through the reign of the Khaliphs, Abu Baker, Omar, Ali and even Uthman you will find that the written sayings of the prophet were forbidden. don't be deluded by uneducated scholars, the collection of hadith were influenced by all sorts cultural, and religious confusion steming from the diverse communities of muslims, pagans, and jews and Christains alike.

 

Subhana Malikal Quddus, Ashadu La Illah il Allahu, waashadu Inna Muhammadan Abdulahu Rasulallah, what a grave statement u have uttered sister, May Allah forgive. Subhana.

 

You say "uneducated scholars" my dear sister please share your wisdom/"creditable sources" with us, since u seem to know more then these "uneducated scholars". Subhana. Let us not transgress ourselves by making statements like these, small knowledge is very dangerous. Subhana

[xiinfaniin]

SB, are you not the wicked one here who pretends to labor on what’s obvious and settled? For the good heavens sake, spare us from your heavy head and don’t hang it in the public squere! Your argument is neither here nor there, and if I stop every time a dog barks, as it were, my road will never end. So I shall ignore your ceaseless rants as you are a complete waste. Don’t blame me as I tried to teach but you do have a swollen skull, and you know not how to ride. Let that be the final seal of the deal. And will keep you in my prayers.

 

Maantoo dhan nac-nac miyaad wadaysaa.