N.O.R.F Posted November 22, 2007 What is going on? Government challenges data claims Conservative claims that senior officials were involved in the loss of 25 million child benefit records have been challenged by the Treasury. The government has insisted the security breach followed a junior member of staff breaking the rules. The loss of the HM Revenue and Customs computer discs may have put members of the public at risk of identity fraud. The Treasury said aspects of the Conservatives' account of events were factually inaccurate. It is understood that one worker, a 23-year-old man, has resigned over the disappearance of the two data CDs. The Conservative head of the Public Accounts Committee, Edward Leigh, claims senior Revenue and Customs officials approved the release of detailed information to the National Audit Office (NAO). He said the NAO wanted only limited child benefit records but was told in an e-mail from a senior business manager in March that to remove more sensitive information was too costly and complex. That e-mail was apparently copied to an assistant director of the department. The result was that full details were sent to the audit office at that time, and again in October when they were lost in internal post. The Treasury has challenged aspects of the account but refuses to elaborate. 'Systemic failure' Shadow chancellor George Osborne said Prime Minister Gordon Brown's account of what happened had been undermined. "This was systemic failure, not individual error by a junior official," he said. "Gordon Brown needs to tell us the whole truth of why the security of all families in the country has been put at risk." During a heated prime minister's questions session, Mr Brown told MPs: "I profoundly regret and apologise for the inconvenience and worries that have been caused to millions of families who receive child benefits. "When mistakes happen in enforcing procedures, we have a duty to do everything we can to protect the public." He said he had ordered a review by the Cabinet Secretary of data safety in government and would give Information Commissioner Richard Thomas the power to spot check departments to ensure data was safe. Conservative leader David Cameron said people would "be angry that the government has failed in its first duty to protect the public". Mr Cameron said people were "desperately worried" and they would "find it frankly weird" that Mr Brown still wanted to go ahead with plans for a national ID cards scheme and register. Two Labour backbench MPs - Karen Buck and Andy Love - said the government should "pause" and "stand back" from the planned project. Bank details The entire child benefit database was sent via internal mail from HMRC in Washington, Tyne and Wear, to the NAO in London via courier TNT on 18 October. The data on the two missing discs includes names, dates of birth, bank and address details. Chancellor Alistair Darling said the civil servant had broken the rules by downloading the data to disc and sending it by unrecorded delivery. Mr Leigh said that a copy he had been given of a briefing note, written by NAO head Sir John Bourn for the chancellor, suggested that senior HMRC officials authorised the release of the sensitive information. Bosses at the Revenue were not told about the loss of the discs until 8 November, and Mr Darling and Mr Brown learned about the situation on 10 November. The officials involved waited before informing their superiors in the hope that the discs would be found. The Metropolitan Police is leading the search for the discs, and the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which oversees the HMRC, is investigating the security breach. Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs has set up a Child Benefit Helpline on 0845 302 1444 for customers who want more details. 18 October - Junior official from HMRC in Washington, Tyne and Wear, sends two CDs containing password-protected records to audit office in London through courier TNT, neither recorded nor registered 24 October - When package fails to arrive, second one is sent by registered post and arrives safely 3 November - Senior managers are told first package has been lost 10 November - Prime minister and other ministers are informed 12 November - HMRC tell ministers CDs will probably be found 14 November - When HMRC searches fail, Metropolitan Police are called in 15 November- Richard Thomas, Information Commissioner, says remedial action must be taken before public is informed 20 November - HMRC Chairman Paul Gray resigns; Chancellor Alistair Darling makes announcement to House of Commons bbc.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N.O.R.F Posted November 22, 2007 Data disaster: Your queries answered Prime Minister Gordon Brown has said he "profoundly regrets" the loss of 25 million child benefit records. He told MPs he apologised for the "inconvenience" caused and said the government was working to prevent the data being used for fraud. BBC personal finance reporter Jennifer Clarke answers your questions about the data breach. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jane from Llandudno asks whether she can find out if her name was included in the lost data. The discs in question were lost on 18 October. They contained a snapshot of the complete child benefit database at or slightly before that point. If Jane is currently receiving child benefit then her details, and those of her children, will be on the discs. HMRC will be writing to all affected customers to apologise. Tania from Kent asks exactly what information has been lost. The discs contained 25 million records. These included the names, addresses, dates of birth, National Insurance numbers and, where relevant, bank and building society details of: 7.25 million claimants 15.5 million children, including some who no longer qualify but whose family is claiming for a younger child 2.25 million 'alternative payees' such as partners or carers 3,000 'appointees' who claim the benefit under court instructions 12,500 agents who claim the benefit on behalf of a third party Geoff from Bolton and EP from Cardiff no longer receive child benefit, and want to know whether their details have been lost. No - the discs only contained details of families currently receiving child benefit. However, as above, the discs could contain details of children who are no longer eligible for the payment if their parents are claiming for a younger child. Doreen from Stockport asks if her child benefit will still be paid through her post office card account? HMRC has confirmed child benefit will continue to be paid in the normal way. Customers who have any queries about receiving their benefit should contact the special helpline on 0845 302 1444. Carol from Newbury asks whether child tax credits are also involved. The discs did not contain information about child tax credit payments, and therefore these payments will not be affected. However, any parent who gets tax credits will also be in receipt of child benefit and therefore their details will be amongst those compromised. Customers with queries about tax credits should contact the normal helpline on 0845 300 3900. Julia from Braintree wants to know what is being done to get the information back. HMRC believes the data is still on government property. The police are now conducting a search to find the discs. The government has stressed there is no evidence that they are in the possession of anyone else. There is also likely to be a separate inquiry from the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which monitors the HMRC. The Information Commissioner Richard Thomas has also announced he will investigate what has happened. The chancellor has asked Kieran Poynter, chairman of PricewaterhouseCoopers, to carry out an independent review of HMRC's data handling procedures. In the meantime HMRC has introduced new security arrangements to stop such a data loss happening again. Ian from Liverpool asks what has happened to the person who downloaded the data. In his statement to MPs, Chancellor Alistair Darling said that a "junior official" within HMRC had downloaded the database and sent it to the National Audit Office (NAO). HMRC will not comment on what action, if any, has been taken against the official or whether he or she still works for the department. The HMRC chairman Paul Gray resigned yesterday in recognition of the department's "substantial operational failure". Tom from Buckinghamshire asks why the information sent to the NAO contained bank details. The NAO requested data from HMRC as part of its preparations for the 2007-08 audit. According to the NAO itself, the data it requested was restricted to the child benefit number, the recipient's National Insurance number and their name. This would enable the NAO to confirm the completeness and accuracy of a sample of child benefit payments. It is not clear why the junior official supplied the entire database. Mike from Liverpool welcomes the chancellor's statement that anyone who suffers from this error will not be out of pocket. But he asks how straightforward would any recovery process be? HMRC and the banks have reiterated that there is no evidence of any fraud as a result of this data breach. However, should fraud occur, the banking code guarantees that any "innocent victim" will not suffer any financial loss as a consequence. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7105592.stm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sharmarkee Posted November 22, 2007 ^^Sir North, I think Revenue ayaa lacagta ismariyay, cos how come they dont have any backup in the servers or else where such a database,tuug tuugi dhashay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thierry. Posted November 22, 2007 Corruption corruption what do you think this a forsaken poverty stricken developing economy careful Sharmake you are talking about British Empire where the sun does not set, we shall not indulge in such accusations. As a member of the labour party I can only say we sincerely apologise for the loss of valuable information, I can assure you that it was an honest mistake and not one of complacency and pure negligence. “Order order” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sharmarkee Posted November 22, 2007 ^^Lool Thiery, check it out this cartoon, I think that was a jolly good sting. guardian cartoon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thierry. Posted November 22, 2007 loool, One thing about Briton is as soon something goes wrong whether it is football, politics or business, heads have to roll. There is no room for a person to correct themselves and learn from mistakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N.O.R.F Posted November 22, 2007 Originally posted by Thierry: As a member of the labour party I can only say we sincerely apologise for the loss of valuable information, I can assure you that it was an honest mistake and not one of complacency and pure negligence. “Order order” LooL, must have been an interesting PMQs today (or was it yesterday?). GB doesnt have the same flair Blair did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chubacka Posted November 23, 2007 even though I prefer Brown to Blair there were some things BLair was a natural at. Someone should tell MR Brwn it is not against the law to smile Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thierry. Posted November 23, 2007 I rate him on PM questions this week, I thought Cameroon was going lynch him with the loss of child benefit records but he stood and fought back. But you guys are right, Blair owned the House of Commons, there was nobody (apart George Galloway) that was more eloquent than him. Tories should bring back William Hague to its leadership now that man can speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N.O.R.F Posted November 23, 2007 ^^William Hague could look after himself against Blair and he had a bit of wit about him which is always a good thing to have on those front benches. Thierry, how are things looking at Labour? I'm currently reading Alaister Campbell's diaries. If you have not read it I would recommend it. The early Blair years, the relationship between the main guys, how the scandles were dealt with etc. Only on page 120 out of 730! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thierry. Posted November 24, 2007 I haven’t read the diaries but I would love to read them, the man was the best spinster (of course after the Iraqi information minister) Labour is good we had a meeting for young labour members in House of Commons last week Sadiq Khan was speaking. Do you still vote from UAE? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N.O.R.F Posted November 25, 2007 ^^Its possible but I havnt had the chance yet. Beside they dont know where I am LoL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
