Saudi Scholars and Adult Breast-Feeding

[Maaddeey]

NNC, Maki's thread ku baashaal adi! hawlahaan ii daa ani.

[Somalina]

Saasan kugu ogahay adeer Maadeey! caalami with cusbo iyo sokor adigaa ku daayey! bilaahi talaahi aa ku idhi. Enjoy adeer Maadeey! good night!

[NGONGE]

RIYADH - One cleric's endorsement of breastfeeding for grown men and another's saying music is not un-Islamic have opened up a pitched battle in Saudi Arabia over who can issue fatwas, or Islamic religious edicts.

 

Hardline and progressive religious scholars, judges and clerics have taken the fight public in what some describe as outright "chaos" in the once ivory-tower world of setting the rules that govern much of life in the ultra-conservative Muslim kingdom.

 

Much of the fight in the past week has focused on a fatwa endorsing music issued by Adel al-Kalbani, a Riyadh cleric famed as the first black imam at the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Islam's holiest city.

 

Kalbani, popular for his soulful baritone delivery of Koranic readings, said he found nothing in Islamic scripture that makes music haram, or forbidden.

 

But, aside from some folk music, public music performance is banned in Saudi Arabia, and conservatives say it is haram even in the home.

 

"There is no clear text or ruling in Islam that singing and music are haram," Kalbani said.

 

Also in recent weeks, a much more senior cleric, Sheikh Abdul Mohsen al-Obeikan, raised hackles with two of his opinions, both of which could be considered fatwas.

 

First, he endorsed the idea that a grown man could be considered as a son of a woman if she breast-feeds him.

 

The issue, based on an ancient story from Islamic texts and source of a furore last year in Egypt, is seen by some as a way of getting around the Saudi religious ban on mixing by unrelated men and women.

 

It brought ridicule and condemnation from women activists and Saudi critics around the world.

 

But Obeikan, a top advisor in the court of King Abdullah, who is believed to be supportive of a less severe Islam in his kingdom, also angered conservatives when he said the compulsory midday and mid-afternoon prayer sessions could be combined to help worshippers skirt the intense heat of summer.

 

While the choice is allowed for individuals in certain circumstances, conservatives say such a broad ruling for everyone is wrong.

 

The comments by Obeikan and Kalbani brought rebukes from top-level clerics seeking to get control of a debate that has erupted into freewheeling public discussions in the media and on the Internet.

 

In his Friday sermon at Mecca's Grand Mosque, the influential Sheikh Abdul Rahman al-Sudais lashed out at what he labelled "fraudulent" fatwas, likening their originators to market vendors selling fake or spoiled goods.

 

The effect, he said, goes so far as to undermine the country's security.

 

Meanwhile, the country's grand mufti, Sheikh Abdulaziz al-Sheikh, warned of a crackdown.

 

"Those who offer abnormal fatwas which have no support from the Koran should be halted," he said on Al-Majd television on Sunday.

 

"If a person comes out (with fatwas) and he is not qualified, we will stop him," he said, comparing such a person to a quack doctor allowed to treat patients.

 

Underpinning the sometimes esoteric debate is a real fight over liberalising the Saudi version of Islam, which bans women from driving and forces all shops to close down during the five-times-daily prayers.

 

Crucially, the government is also moving to build a consistency in the Islamic sharia law-based legal system, where judges are all clerics for whom fatwas play a crucial role.

 

The government wants only one body, controlled by the powerful Council of High Ulema, to issue fatwas, which other clerics must accept. Some people want fatwas more attuned to modern life.

 

"The people are governed by old ideas," historian and columnist Mohammad al-Zulfa to AFP.

 

"People are forming a new mentality. (Many) have been waiting for such fatwas for a long time," he said about Kalbani.

 

"We are part of the world. We have to develop the legal system to meet the needs of the modern time," he added.

 

Earlier this year there was an embarrassing fight over the apparently free-thinking head of Mecca's religious police, Ahmed al-Ghamdi, who shocked many by endorsing mixing by men and women.

 

He was fired, and then reinstated, in a behind-the-scenes skirmish between conservatives and progressives.

 

Hamad al-Qadi, a member of the Saudi Shura Council, called the fatwa fight this week "chaos".

 

"The Islamic world follows whatever comes out of our country and its scholars concerning Islam," he said, according to Al-Hayat newspaper.

 

For his part, Kalbani said he was open to discussion on the issue.

 

"The problem is that there are some who do not accept debate at all," he said.

 

He clarified that he was not endorsing all music, using two often risque Lebanese pop singers as examples.

 

"I am talking about decent singing, which contains decent words, and supports morality," he told the online newspaper Sabq.org.

 

"I am definitely not talking about the songs of Nancy Ajram or Haifa Wehbe or other indecent songs."

 

However, "if Nancy Ajram sang a song with a positive message, then she would be within my fatwa."

 

 

AFP

[ANTARA]

^ This is a change some might one to believe in; Sheikh Kalbani is trying to be the Obama of Islam.

 

Who would have predicted this sort of fatwa 10 years ago; this is how you know that extremism is having an adverse effect on Islam. Songs are haram in spite of what Klabani says, but many people including me listen to them regardless in the hope that their good deeds will balance the books.

 

Sheikh Kalbani is pushing the government agenda here.

[General Duke]

I am definitely not talking about the songs of Nancy Ajram or Haifa Wehbe or other indecent songs."

 

However, "if Nancy Ajram sang a song with a positive message, then she would be within my fatwa."

 

The only issue here is how did he know about her Music?

[NGONGE]

^^ The sheikh is probably well read. I have not heard a single song of Lady Gaga but I still heard of the woman.

 

Antara, to say he's pushing a government agenda is to accuse the sheikh of deceit. Not nice, saaxib. He is human, he can err all by himself and without any nudges from the royal family.

 

Still, it is all happening in Saudi Arabia.

[NGONGE]

For those that read Arabic, the Music argument has turned into a poetry conversation between two sheikhs (or so it was alleged). Here is one telling Sheikh Kalbani to think again about his fatwa:

 

 

أرفق بنفسك عادل الكلباني

فلقد أبحت معازف الألحان

أرفق بنفسك فالحياة قصيرة

مهما تعش فيها من الأزمان

أرفق بنفسك لا أخالك جاهلا

إن اتبـاع الحق في الإذعان

أحقيقة ما قــــد تناقله الملا

فرأيته ضربآ مــن الــهذيان

إني أعيذك أن تكون مكابرآ

فارجع إلى ما كنت من إحسان

بالأمس كنت إمام أطهر بقعة

شهرآ أمام البيت ذي الأركان

واليوم أنت مع المعازف مفتيآ

بجـــــوازها ياخيبة الإخوان

هل تاق سمعك للفتـاة أصالة

أم تقت سمعآ للمخضرم هاني

هل أنت مشتاق لنبرة عـجرم

أم صرت ترقب عاصي الحلاني

أم قد سئمت مـن التلاوة مدة

فأردت تبديلآ لـها بأغـاني

أم قد كرهت مقال كل محرم

 

جعل المعازف رقية الشيطان

هل ضقت ذرعآ من إمامة مالك

وإمامـــة الفذ الفتى النعماني

والشافعي الألـــمعي محمــد

أو رأس أهل السنة الشيباني

أو من يسير على طريقة أحمد

فانقاد وفق مراده بأمــان

هل ضقت ذرعا بالأئمة كلهم

ورحمت كـل مزمر فتـــان

هذا حديث الناس إثر مقالكم

مــــالي برد الشامتين يــــدان

أولم يسعك اليوم ماوسع الأولى

فلقد كفوك القول بالبرهـــان

إني سأذكر بيت صاحب حكمة

 

فلقد أجـــاد مـــوفقآ ببيـــان

إحذر هديت فتحت رجلك حفرة

كم قد هوى فيها من الإنسان

ولسوف أذكر ما حكاه محمد

أعني بــه ابن القيم الربـاني

حـب الكتاب وحب الحان الغنا

في قلب عبد ليس يجتمعــان

ياعادل هذي نصيحة مشفق

بر صدوق مــحسن معــوان

ستظل تندب مانطقت به غدآ

والقسط عندالله بالــــميزان

يتبرأ المتبوع مــــن أتباعـــه

ويفر إخــوان من الإخــوان

فالحكم للحق القوي بعدله

والفصل يوم الـدين للـديان

سيقول مستمع المعازف حينها

يارب أفتاني بـــها الكلباني

 

Now someone pretending to be sheikh Kalbani replies with these choice words:

 

 

- هاتِ الدليلَ بحكمةٍ وبيانِ *** وارفق بنفسكَ يا أخا القرآنِ

 

- لا تعجلنَّ فلن تراني مرسلاً *** من عندِ ربٍ واحدٍ ديّانِ

 

3- بعدَ التثبُّتِ قُلتها متأكداً *** إن الغناءَ أُبيحَ للإخوانِ

 

4- فإذا أصبتُ فذاكَ ما أصبو لهُ *** وإذا زللتُ فقد يزلُّ لساني

 

5- أستغفرُ الله العظيمَ لزلَّتي *** فهوَ الذي بكتابهِ ربَّاني

 

6- دعْ ما يقولُ به الأئمةُ كلُهمْ *** وقلِ الرسولُ عنِ الغناءِ نهاني

 

7- هلْ لي بإثباتٍ بقولِ رسولِنا *** إنَّ الغِنَاءَ معازفُ الشيطانِ ؟ ؟ !

 

8- هلْ قيلَ حُرِّمَ سَمعُها بصراحةٍ *** في محكمِ الآياتِ والقرآنِ ؟ ؟ !

 

9- ما كنتُ في فتوايَ مثلَ مكابرٍ *** بعدَ الدليلِ يسيرُ في الطُغْيانِ

 

10- ماكنتُ أهمزُ من يخُالفني على *** رأيي ويلمزُني كما الفوزانِ

 

11- أمَّيّْتُ في البيتِ الحرامِ لفترةً *** ما ذاكَ يابنَ العمِّ بالنقصانِ

 

12- ما كنتُ أُجبرُ من يُعَارضُني على *** فتوايَ مثلَ بقيةِ الإخوانِ

 

13- ماتاقَ سمعيَ للفتاةِ أصالةٍ *** ماتاقَ سمعي للمخضرمِ هاني

 

14- فلعلمُكمْ باسمِ الفتاةِ أصالةٍ *** أو بالمخضرمِ منْ ذكرتَ الثاني

 

15- جعلَ الخلائقَ كلها طربى لهم *** هذا المخضرمُ مطربُ الآذانِ

 

16- أتصدُّ شيخيَ عنْ سماعِ مخضرمٍ *** ما ذاكَ عدلٌ والذي سوّاني

 

- أنتَ الذي سمَّيتهُ بمخضرمٍ *** ومضيتَ تذكرُ عاصيَ الحلاني

 

18- ونطقتَ سخريةً بنبرةِ عجرمٍ *** أم أنني أعمى منَ العميانِ

 

19- أمّا التلاوةُ ما سئمتُ حنينَها *** فبها أغنِّي مُسْمعاً ألحاني

 

20- ولقدْ رجوتُ بما مضى بقصيدتي *** وطلبتُ منكَ أدلةَ الحرمانِ

 

21- فاكتبْ دليلكَ لا أخالكَ جاهلاً *** وأريدهُ بصراحةٍ وبيانِ

 

22- ما ضقتُ ذرعاً من إمامةِ مالكٍ *** أتراهُ مرسولاً من الرحمنِ ؟ ؟ !

 

23- أتَرىَ الأئمةَ يا أخيَّ بعلمهمْ *** عُصِموا من الأخطاءِ والنسيانِ ؟ ؟ !

 

24- آرائهمْ بينَ الصوابِ وعكسهِ *** لمْ يجبروا أحداً على الإذعانِ

 

25- أنا إنْ كرهتُ مقالَ كلّ محرمٍ *** فلأنهُ يخلوا من البرهانِ

 

26 - إنْ كانَ لي من حُجَّةٍ أو مرجعٍ *** فهو النبيُّ المرسلُ الربّاني

 

[Prometheus]

^^

 

Sheekhii dhamaa ee xaramka tujinayay bay yidhaahdeen waar Quraankii baad ka daashay sow maaha, nadalyahow; cajram iyo cod naageed miyaad xalaalaysay. Abu Xaniifa iyo Maalik fatwadooda ayaad saluugtay. Waa Islaamaaaaaah! (Tol'ayeeey Islaameeey). Gabayga koowaad waa aflagaaddo, hanjabaad, iyo hantaatac.

 

It's a tiresome tactic of ultra-conservatives (and miserable miscreants) to call a person's religious loyalty into question. Al-Qaradawi recieved similiar vituperation when he said that there was never any juridical consensus on the blanket prohibition of music. It's a fabrication of cultural philistines and conservatives. Various muslims jurists (from Ibn Hazm to Ibn Rushd) have all made allowance for music and songs. Kelbane is no different.

[Haatu]

Ngonge do you have any proof for what Sh Kalbaani said? The fatwa or something will help.

[General Duke]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

^^ The sheikh is probably well read. I have not heard a single song of Lady Gaga but I still heard of the woman.

 

Antara, to say he's pushing a government agenda is to accuse the sheikh of deceit. Not nice, saaxib. He is human, he can err all by himself and without any nudges from the royal family.

 

Still, it is all happening in Saudi Arabia.

That's even worse one understands the type of Magz that profile Gaga or what ever her name, but to suggest that the Shiekh reads such is just wicked.

[NGONGE]

^^ Celebrity news is on all kinds of media these days, saaxib. Ms Lohan's recent prison story was on BBC news (and I bet it would have been on Al Jazeera, Al Arabia and others). The shiekh is not blind or isolated, adeer.

 

Haatu, what do you mean by proof? If I find you the fatwa it will be in Arabic. The topic is all over Saudi news, saaxib. It's not something I made up. Wax fahan.

[Haatu]

^ War I didn't say you made it up. I just want the fatwa so I can read for myself (in Arabic). Wax fahan.

[NGONGE]

The Shiekh's site where he replies to another Shiekh who did not agree with the fatwa

 

A written interview with a magazine talking about the fatwa

 

An article in English about the fatwa and people's strange reactions

 

That last one is for the fun of it and neither proves nor denies the fatwa.

 

Happy Haatu?

[Prometheus]

"Puritanism - the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy." Henry Mencken

 

That's why some religious rodents are even against something as benign as a Beethoven symphony or a Mozart piano concerto.

[Polanyi]

Originally posted by Prometheus:

"Puritanism - the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy." Henry Mencken

 

That's why some religious rodents are even against something as benign as a Beethoven symphony or a Mozart piano concerto.

2 plus 2 equals 5?