Federalism VS Centralism. Present Your Views

[Tillamook]

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@SomaliaRising

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Tallaabo, you are talking about Xamar People? Yes they are centralists, but not for the correct reasons. They fear federalism and think that federalism will make them become prey, sieged from north and south by their rival clan.

Iam centralist for islamist reasons, not clan reason.

My thinking is that we as somalis must unite behind righteous islamic leader, and to prepare ourselves for Amir al muminun Al-Mahdi. When the amiir comes, our own islamic leader will cease to exist by giving Mahdi allegiance bayyah.

So iam saying Islamic Republic of Somalia is a interim solution until the real Ameer comes.

 

First of all my name is Tillamook and NOT Tallaabo.

 

Tallaabo is a seccessionist cross dresser(judging from his defense of gays on SOL), and I am hard hitting, take no prisoners,

defeated Lot King

 

Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand... you say, you want an Islamic Republic of Somalia, and that is federalist in my point of view because if you were genuine religious Centralist you should insist upon having a global Islamic Republic...oh wait! Some wackos beat you to it, but at least you don't blow up anyone who says otherwise... or do you?

 

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

No centralism and no federalism based on clan

 

 

Decentralized is the best way forward a strong government in the capital where as the local provinces can do their daily affairs on provincial level so each and every region can get its fair share and distribution from the government.

[Dr_Osman]

Islamic rule is not possible, Somalia doesn't live on an island, it is apart of a global villeage and we need to consider geo politics. If a caliphate was going to begin it needs to start in mecca first just like how islam started first, the prophet pbuh didnt go to rome first, he started their in the holy land. But islamic system will not even unite somalis realistically since we saw how shabab,the courts, hizbul islam, ahlul sunnah still divided along clan lines. Clan is still the most powerful factor in somalia whether one wishes to accept it or not religion isn't.

 

Any solution without the tribe factor addressed is bound to fail. Besides as noted by the doctor kennedy the caliphate was never centralized, it was federal itself, it had governors around all regions like iraq, shams, egypt, etc. So even the caliphate isn't central in nature.

 

But some of the arguments raised by somaliarising didn't truly make sense, I think he is just being idealistic but reality on the ground can quickly change his idealistic thoughts when he goes to somalia and sees what is being governed here.

 

I think he also made an argument about how centralism means strength or something along those lines, but what makes him think federalism doesn't mean strength, the whole country is going to be developed that means bigger GDP, more people are going to be educated, healthier due to having these in close proximity. So his argument there totally failed because federalism will make us even stronger then centralism since every somali, every piece of land will be put to use.

 

He also used one of the disadvantage points I raised regarding if it is feasible for 8 million people to have such a bureaucracy, it definitely isn't but considering the people whom we are trying to govern I think it is a sacrifice that needs to be made. The people who are idealistic are all fine and dandy but on the ground millions are not idealistic like that and this who we are trying to govern, not ourselves but them and we need to accept what working with and that is a war ravaged people 20 years on who basic survival has been the clan system, do you think their letting go of that quickly? as I mentioned earlier these people being in such predictment will always be suspicious and have lack of trust for anything beyond their clan, its not them its the environment that has shaped them for well over 20 years. U can't just wave a magic stick with idealism and think it will solve it over night, remember we tried 15 failed conferences, yet all failed because that important component of trust was never addressed, forgiveness can be attained, somalis are already living in all regions of somalia so there isn't any hatred anymore but their is mistrust and that is going to take a long time to overcome as kennedy pointed out.

[Dr_Osman]

Xaji ok thats fine and dandy but what character will the capital talk? surely not how it is now, because right now it looks like any other regional city, did u see muungaab latest banadir administration, their all from one clan? the big question is how do I tell my nomads mogadishu is your capital city yet its all one clan running it, the first thing they will turn and say then why cant garowe be the same and claim capital status since its one tribe too.

 

Your idea of a strong capital is fine but that can only be decided on the status mogadishu will take in the nation, what status do you suggest mogadishu takes in order to have this strong capital? if your suggesting the status remain how it is now, then thats not feasible again breaking one of the huge factors of trust enopowering one clan and also raising questions why every city cant just be a capital since mogadishu is the same and tribal.

[Mahiigaan]

Centralism is a project by Benadiri folk, nothing else. As the Dr said, Centralism is a legacy of the colonialists. It has no roots in our culture at all. Somalis, being an egalitarian society had defined territories of grazing for each clan, but had (and still have) sharing of grazing and water. Each clan had their Sultan/Garaad or Boqor. These tribes had a Somali Xeer which we in modern times, call Constitution. Cooperation in times of peace and conflict solving, in times of war, were under the responsibility of those guurti.

The problem of convincing the southerners to accept federalism has a cultural background, apart from economical and dominance. The South was different from the North. The Italian rule was abslute and central, and the Colonial rulers dismantled the Oday dhaqameed traditional system altogether. That is why Konfurians don't understand this loose political system which is known as federalism.

No Somali to my knowledge supports a Central government excep Benaadiri folk, and probably some from Central Somalia for obvious reasons. Central governance is a lost case in Somalia. It is dead!.

[Dr_Osman]

Mahiigan it is sad the centralist have no serious arguments for their causes, yet they support it. Even the Xaaji best argument is always no "clan". But how else will districts,cities,states form councils and govts if it isn't tribe? Do we just say ok lets implement a 4.5 system in garowe and bring somali participants across the country even though those tribes don't live there in substantial numbers?

 

This idea of clan is misunderstood by too many somalis. If somalis wish to unite based on clan, considering what has happened in the civil war and if it produces good results like progress, what makes this bad? or is it better its mixed clan and constant fighting and no progress?

 

My understanding of clan is that a clan cannot become a nation, it can't nationalize itself because that would need different tribes since the nation is not just yours but shared with many different tribes. But if a tribe wants to form a regional govt in the regions through states based on tribe, I can't see a problem due to historical context of what somalia has suffered and also the fact the regions are tribal whether we like it or not. The shared areas are very minimal when u look at the big picture of the nation. So this no to tribe nonsense I think is a ignorant argument of the person making it. No to tribal nation I can understand but no to a tribal regional govt, I will never get my head around.

 

I think Dr kennedy also made good points about we never know maybe in 100 years when all our decendants see peace and development and forget about the civil war and talk about it in the history book, they may decide to come back together under a central govt, maybe their will be geopolitical events then that will put the centralism question on the table as more favourable for somalis. You never know and I think our decendants can make that decision for themselves because socieities will always need to adapt and change to the time period and events around them and Somalia isn't on some island where it aint affected by this, it sure is.

 

But what we can speak on is our time period, what our nation is coming from, considering our geo political neighbours position and the wider international community with its strong focus on "radical islam" it is highly unlikely that an islamic state is feasible externally. Infact internally it's alot less feasible too when you see how the islamic factions split across clan lines proving my point how clan remains the strongest focal point.

 

I believe today what we are facing and taking into consideration external geo politics,our history, our people, the massive war we had, the reconcilation among people being possible(since ppl still travel throughout the regions), and the failed conferences of the past(due to mistrust long time to develop) we must take federalism to salvage till war ravaged nation only an absolute nut would deny this mohamed aluso and his likes.

 

[Tillamook]

Doctor, you've singlehandedly grabbed this debate by the scruff of the neck and manhandled it into submission. Those supporting the centralist view point have miserably failed to present viable counterpoints to you hard hitting arguments.

 

You, sir, are a genius.