Islam and Hsexuality

[DoctorKenney]

Hope all is well too

 

Nice job trying to fit your own twisted interpretation into it. And then attempt to dismiss the common understanding as "modern apologetics"

 

Iska amuus saaxib

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenny, I thought you were against interpretations? What happened?

 

Let me repeat, this is what the Quran says, with absolutely zero interpretation on my part. The apologist English translation added interpretation to the verse. Are you going to reject the holy verse?

 

Now that you saw I did not insert my interpretations into the Quran, should you not apologise about your initial outburst here?

 

The verse is clear:

 

“These are my daughters – if you would be doers”

 

I wonder what the dear prophet was offering those men

[Allyourbase]

 

"These are my daughters - if you would be doers"

 

 

Its okay that you were not aware of the original Arabic verse. But dont you come now raving on about this 'modern understanding' when merely a minute ago you were flaming me for 'inserting my understanding' to the verse. The Quranic verse is clear enough here for us to understand what the dear prophet was offering.

 

 

[DoctorKenney]

Okay

 

You're going to keep insisting on doing this. Whether I rebuke you or not

 

And I really have no interest in continuing this pointless banter with you.

 

Refer back to my 1st post on this thread.

[Allyourbase]

I can do that

 

<cite>

@DoctorKenney

said:</cite>

AllYourBase, that was absolutely disgusting. You just inserted your own interpretations into a Quranic verse and implied that the Prophet Lot offered his own daughters for prostitution to deter them from homosexual acts! You are despicable

 

If that is what you want I am happy to reexamine the Quranic verse with you here. I see that you are troubled by the use of interpretations here, so I will stick to the the verses' verbatim in original Arabic and you draw the conclusion, I think that is fair.

 

 

You blatantly lied here, inserted your own theories, and then slyly attempt to place the burden of proof on Tallaabo. If there's a deceptive character on this forum, it's you.

 

I did not lie, lets look at the Quran for a second:

 

 

And the people of the city came rejoicing.

 

 

[Lot] said, "Indeed, these are my guests, so do not shame me.

 

 

And fear Allah and do not disgrace me."

 

 

They said, "Have we not forbidden you from people?"

 

 

[Lot] said, "These are my daughters - if you would be doers."

 

=====

 

These are the Quranic verses, please explain how I lied, or if the translation provided missed anything from the original Arabic, I would love to know

 

There you go, zero interpretation/understanding, 100% Quran, no room for maneuver Im afraid.

[DoctorKenney]

There you go again. I have no interest in addressing these claims, as Lot offering his daughters in lawful marriage to these men would automatically result in you assuming that he's selling them for sex.

 

I've no benefit in involving myself and this forum in such degrading and pointless discussions.

 

Let Shaykh AllYourBase decide for us what's written in our Book, while he arrogantly believes that his mighty copying/pasting powers will take over.

 

 

 

P.S. AllYourBase, due to your previous earlier inability to articulate a coherent worldview in which you can judge Islamic Doctrine, then all of your assertions and allegations against Islam automatically become invalid. Your copying/pasting material (which has been previously refuted) from anti-Islamic websites with no input of your own amounts to nothing but laziness and lack of thinking on your part.

 

 

[Khayr]

What classical tafsir equates the word فِعل with rape? How did he condone the raping of his daughters? How in the world did you come to that conclusion unless of course you are doing your job from anti-islam cites?

[DoctorKenney]

<cite>

@Khayr

said:</cite>

What classical tafsir equates the word فِعل with rape? How did he condone the raping of his daughters? How in the world did you come to that conclusion unless of course you are doing your job from anti-islam cites?

 

That's exactly what he's doing bro. There's no critical thinking abilities on AllYourBase's part. It's just copying/pasting irrelevant arguments on this forum and attempting to pass it off as fact.

 

This is a very disgusting allegation, and it shows that he's not interested in truth-seeking or anything of the sort

 

So let's just kill the discussion.

[Allyourbase]

 

 

as Lot offering his daughters in

lawful marriage

 

Show me where in the original Arabic Quran you see this talk of 'lawful marriage'.

 

You are lying and blatantly inserting your own interpretations to the Quranic verse, exactly what you accused me of doing, the irony

 

There is absolutely no mention of the work marriage in the Quranic verse.

 

I have proven my point very clearly I think. If there is no mention of marriage in the Arabic verse then: 1. Why is it added in the English translation and 2. if the dear prophet was not offering marriage, there is only one other alternative, one which the Quranic verse spill explicitly:

 

“These are my daughters – if you would be doers.”

 

Now watch the good Doctor try to wiggle out of this one

[DoctorKenney]

I won't wiggle out of it, because you want to dismiss the universal and unanimous understanding of this verse from Arabic Scholars, Medieval scholars, Modern scholars and even Orientalists just so you can say "Oh the word marriage wasn't said explicitly so therefore he's offering his daughters for prostitution".

 

In the Arabic language, inferences are made in verses even when the word isn't said explicitly. It's used in almost every single Quranic chapter. This is why brackets have to be added in English translations so the meaning doesn't get lost when translating.

 

End it, you're an amateur.

 

I don't wish to continue

[Allyourbase]

Here is the same story in a different verse:

 

 

And his people came hastening to him, and before [this] they had been doing evil deeds. He said, "O my people, these are my daughters; they are purer for you. So fear Allah and do not disgrace me concerning my guests. Is there not among you a man of reason?"

 

 

They said, "You have already known that we have not concerning your daughters any claim, and indeed, you know what we want."

 

====

 

Again, absolutely no mention of marriage in the Arabic verse.

 

It can not get any clearer

[Allyourbase]

<cite>

@DoctorKenney

said:</cite>

I won't wiggle out of it, because you want to dismiss the universal and unanimous understanding of this verse from Arabic Scholars, Medieval scholars, Modern scholars and even Orientalists just so you can say "Oh the word marriage wasn't said explicitly so therefore he's offering his daughters for prostitution".

 

In the Arabic language, inferences are made in verses even when the word isn't said explicitly. It's used in almost every single Quranic chapter. This is why brackets have to be added in English translations so the meaning doesn't get lost when translating.

 

End it, you're an amateur.

 

I don't wish to continue

 

Ah, you gave up too quickly

 

I am glad you agree that no mention of the word or idea of marriage is in the verse. Why should I concern myself with the understanding of other men when I have the divine words of the creator clear for me to read?

 

 

I thought the Quran is the 'final book' of revelation, and the Almighty Allah sent it down in perfect clarity for all humanity to read.

 

You clearly can not read the Arabic or you would not be in this hole right now.

[DoctorKenney]

People, look at the level of depravity this thread has sunk to. And look at the complete lack of common sense exhibited by this member AllYourBase

 

He would really have us believe that the Prophet Lot, offered his daughters to be made as prostitutes, simply because the word "marriage" wasn't explicitly stated in the Quranic Verse. Even though fornication is a serious sin in Islam, carrying a stiff punishment. Even though Prophet Lot was a righteous person who wouldn't engage in such despicable behavior. Even though anyone with a working brain can obviously infer what Prophet Lot intended when he offered his daughters in marriage to these men, and he explicitly stated "They are purer for you" and he stated "So guard against the punishment of Allah" and obviously you can't do that if you're warding off one sin by committing another sin. You can't ward off homosexuality by encouraging fornication. It's extremely amateur to even make that point and not a single person with even a modicum of self-respect would make such an argument.

 

Anyone with a working brain and a tiny bit of sincerity and common sense would know what the Prophet Lot was offering (marriage). That Prophet Lot, by his actions and by his statements, would never offer his daughters for prostitution or anything of the sort.

 

But AllYourBase already knows this. And he's looking for any excuse to drag on this discussion.

 

 

Read here:

 

Surah 11:78- And his people came to him, (as if) rushed on towards him, and already they did evil deeds. He said:

O my people! these are my daughters-- they are purer for you, so guard against (the punishment of) Allah and do not disgrace me with regard to my guests; is there not among you one right-minded man?

 

11:79- They said: Certainly you know that we have no right to your daughters, and most surely you know what we desire.

 

11:80- He said: Ah! that I had power to suppress you, rather I shall have recourse to a strong support.

[The Quran ; 11:78-80]

 

He's an amateur with amateur arguments, no coherent thought-processes, and a strong copy/paste button on his laptop where he literally copies arguments from others and then passes them off as his own

[DoctorKenney]

BTW AllYourBase don't expect us to forget a couple of months ago when you were asked to elaborate on your world-view, which could then be analysed on whether it's credible or not, and whether it can be used as a benchmark to judge past and present societies. And whether this world-view is philosophically consistent, and can provide objective (and universal) moral values.

 

You couldn't answer it. You disappeared from the Forum. Because you don't know what you're doing

 

You're an Amateur. And until you're able to fulfil that task than I'm not obligated to answer anything you ask me. You're like a man who wears a mask and then calls others ugly

[Allyourbase]

<cite>

@DoctorKenney

said:</cite>

People, look at the level of depravity this thread has sunk to. And look at the complete lack of common sense exhibited by this member AllYourBase

 

He would really have us believe that the Prophet Lot, offered his daughters to be made as prostitutes, simply because the word "marriage" wasn't explicitly stated in the Quranic Verse. Even though fornication is a serious sin in Islam, carrying a stiff punishment. Even though Prophet Lot was a righteous person who wouldn't engage in such despicable behavior. Even though anyone with a working brain can obviously infer what Prophet Lot intended when he offered his daughters in marriage to these men, and he explicitly stated "They are purer for you" and he stated "So guard against the punishment of Allah" and obviously you can't do that if you're warding off one sin by committing another sin. You can't ward off homosexuality by encouraging fornication. It's extremely amateur to even make that point and not a single person with even a modicum of self-respect would make such an argument.

 

Anyone with a working brain and a tiny bit of sincerity and common sense would know what the Prophet Lot was offering (marriage). That Prophet Lot, by his actions and by his statements, would never offer his daughters for prostitution or anything of the sort.

 

But AllYourBase already knows this. And he's looking for any excuse to drag on this discussion.

 

 

Read here:

 

 

 

He's an amateur with amateur arguments, no coherent thought-processes, and a strong copy/paste button on his laptop where he literally copies arguments from others and then passes them off as his own

 

Dude, stop with the acrobatics

 

When I made my point you've insinuated that I was making shit up about your Quran, to which I have provided you with the source material. When you are arguing the righteousness of Lot, and the incoherence of the claims (made by God in the Quran, mind you) you are essentially arguing with the Quran and not me

 

It is the Quran that says “These are my daughters – if you would be doers.”

 

Your God could have simply said "“These are my daughters – for you in lawful marriage.” Would you not agree that this would make for a more clearer verse?

 

You do not need to tell me how much of a good boy the dear prophet was, you need to raise this up with the G.O.D himself for not mentioning it in either verses sxb.

 

You're busted

 

If you are going to be looking into the moral motives of Lot, you will begin to question the logic of this whole story. I mean, you have a group of men barging into your house and wanting to fornicate with your male guest, so you offer them your daughters?

 

In which world does this make sense? I mean, if we are to take the Quranic story at face value these are immoral criminals who are lusting after men, and this guy wants them to be (even in your unbelievable scenario) his in laws?

 

Very funny walahi No logic at all. Come on son: