Safferz Posted October 2, 2013 Provide sources that show my stats are inaccurate if you're going to dismiss them. Always amazing to see people fail to make obvious connections and assume there's no relationship because it makes a flawed argument easier to present (ie. high birth rates which is the topic at hand, and the health complications you seem to think are off topic like high infant and maternal mortality rates), lol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N.O.R.F Posted October 2, 2013 You haven't provided any stats. One minute you're talking about your surburban life in Canada and how other Somalis are less off because they're part of larger families and the next your talking about obstetric fistula in Ethiopia! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coofle Posted October 2, 2013 Safferz;980220 wrote: I'm talking about statistics and development indicators, and you're giving romanticized images of nomadic and rural poverty. Do you know how many Somali women back home are illiterate because our culture deems it more important for them to be wives and mothers than to be educated? Or that many of these large 'merry' nomadic families deal with chronic malnutrition? Did you know Somalia has one of the highest maternal and infant mortality rates in the world? That our women deal with birth complications related to female circumcision, and that obstetric fistula - a condition where women are literally ripped open by childbirth and can no longer hold their urine and bowel movements - is a massive problem in Somalia, because our women start having children too young for their bodies to deal with pregnancy and childbirth? And I hope I don't have to explain to you what all of this means for Somali society as a whole, and what economists, political scientists and development analysts have shown about the links between women's health and wellbeing for families and society as a whole. Countries like ours continue to fail so long as that's the reality for women and children. You don't need to be a parent to understand what's at stake here. actually its not the number, its how the mother gets the number...Provided there is good family planning and sufficient obstetric/Gynecologic care for the mother let them have as much as they want.understanding the female psychology in Somali inhabited lands is vital where a woman is valued by how many children(boys) she pops out (naagi Guri hakaaga jirto ama god hakaaga jirto) .... Financial reasons are not justified because as Muslims we believe Ilaahay baa arsaaqda bixiya, Risiq works in mysterious ways. in Suurat al Isra'a ((And do not slay your children, by burying them alive, fearing penury, poverty. We shall provide for them and for you. Slaying them is truly a great sin.)) I find this ayah applicable when one argues children are risk of progeny. .... Guntii iyo gabagabadii....For Health reasons (living in underprivileged area, poor family conditions not able to provide health service, previous obstetric complications etc ) are all deemed to be right reasons to stop producing progeny....but fear of poverty...Well dib ha loogu laabto. PS: Xaaji NORF is advocating with gusto against limiting number of progeny because the damage is already done, Jabhad idil buu kaga soo daadshay...loolz..saw maaha abti. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Safferz Posted October 2, 2013 N.O.R.F;980227 wrote: You haven't provided any stats. One minute you're talking about your surburban life in Canada and how other Somalis are less off because they're part of larger families and the next your talking about obstetric fistula in Ethiopia! My arguments are actually quite well structured and relevant to the topic, I'm sorry you can't follow. But sure, here are some figures -- infant mortality rates by country (CIA, World Bank), maternal mortality rates by country (CIA, WHO, UNICEF), obstetric fistula in Somalia (Fistula Foundation, UNFPA Fistula Campaign), women's literacy rates in Somalia (UNESCO). Some key points and excerpts from the links and reports: - under five mortality rate is 225 per 1,000 live births (placing us in the bottom 3 in the world, in some rankings #1) - one in 10 Somali children die before their first birthday and one in 12 women die from pregnancy related causes (bottom 2 in world) - less than 30 per cent of the country has access to safe water - acute malnutrition afflicts 17 per cent of children - 2.12 million Somalis, more than half of whom are children, were in an Acute Food Security Crisis in 2012 - estimated incidence of obstetric fistula per 1000 deliveries is 3-5 - adult literacy rate: 49.7% of men, 25.8% of women Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coofle Posted October 2, 2013 Safferz;980234 wrote: My arguments are actually quite well structured and relevant to the topic, I'm sorry you can't follow. But sure, here are some figures -- infant mortality rates by country ( CIA , World Bank ), maternal mortality rates by country ( CIA, WHO , UNICEF ), obstetric fistula in Somalia ( Fistula Foundation , UNFPA Fistula Campaign ), women's literacy rates in Somalia ( UNESCO ). Some key points and excerpts from the links and reports: - under five mortality rate is 225 per 1,000 live births (placing us in the bottom 3 in the world, in some rankings #1) - one in 10 Somali children die before their first birthday and one in 12 women die from pregnancy related causes (bottom 2 in world) - less than 30 per cent of the country has access to safe water - acute malnutrition afflicts 17 per cent of children - 2.12 million Somalis, more than half of whom are children, were in an Acute Food Security Crisis in 2012 - estimated incidence of obstetric fistula per 1000 deliveries is 3-5 - adult literacy rate: 49.7% of men, 25.8% of women Saffarz, I had this argument with wadaada on so many occasions and I came to realize health reasons are the only way you can get them to give you attention....Never mention poverty...Just the Horrible infant and maternal mortality figures (we are world champions)...improving such conditions as healthcare usually increases the public awareness to the tremendous damage done by unplanned pregnancies, this has been tried first hand in Somaliland. Read about how only Adna adan training midwives has dropped the figures and yet coupled with them the average children a man could have. ..... ragga mashquuliya, iyagaa idin ka jeesane...my advice to feminists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N.O.R.F Posted October 2, 2013 Safferz;980234 wrote: My arguments are actually quite well structured and relevant to the topic, I'm sorry you can't follow. But sure, here are some figures -- infant mortality rates by country ( CIA , World Bank ), maternal mortality rates by country ( CIA, WHO , UNICEF ), obstetric fistula in Somalia ( Fistula Foundation , UNFPA Fistula Campaign ), women's literacy rates in Somalia ( UNESCO ). Some key points and excerpts from the links and reports: - under five mortality rate is 225 per 1,000 live births (placing us in the bottom 3 in the world, in some rankings #1) - one in 10 Somali children die before their first birthday and one in 12 women die from pregnancy related causes (bottom 2 in world) - less than 30 per cent of the country has access to safe water - acute malnutrition afflicts 17 per cent of children - 2.12 million Somalis, more than half of whom are children, were in an Acute Food Security Crisis in 2012 - estimated incidence of obstetric fistula per 1000 deliveries is 3-5 - adult literacy rate: 49.7% of men, 25.8% of women Now how is all this related to the economic reasons for family planning in Canada with which you based your original argument? I am following. Will scrutinise the stats later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Safferz Posted October 2, 2013 N.O.R.F;980240 wrote: Now how is all this related to the economic reasons for family planning in Canada with which you based your original argument? I am following. Will scrutinise the stats later. Most of us are first generation immigrants, so population trends and cultural attitudes towards having children travel to the diaspora with us. But if you go back to the first page, I only spoke of "Somali culture," while you were the first to say "back home" and bring Somalia itself into the discussion and so I responded to that. But as I said, you can't fully separate the two at this point, when it comes to my parents' generation at least. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Safferz Posted October 2, 2013 Coofle;980237 wrote: Saffarz, I had this argument with wadaada on so many occasions and I came to realize health reasons are the only way you can get them to give you attention... .Never mention poverty ...Just the Horrible infant and maternal mortality figures (we are world champions)...improving such conditions as healthcare usually increases the public awareness to the tremendous damage done by unplanned pregnancies, this has been tried first hand in Somaliland. Read about how only Adna adan training midwives has dropped the figures and yet coupled with them the average children a man could have. ..... ragga mashquuliya, iyagaa idin ka jeesane...my advice to feminists. I don't disagree with you on that Coofle (though I don't agree that financial security shouldn't be factored into family planning, that's your interpretation not something dictated by religion), any attempts to make changes will require cultural sensitivity and pragmatism given the social context. From what I can see, many NGOs seem to already be operating that way, for instance the MSF Ethiopia position I mentioned earlier in the thread on advocating continuous breastfeeding because many Somali men were hostile to other forms of family planning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N.O.R.F Posted October 2, 2013 The discussion was broadly on the economic reasons for family planning (home or abroad) before you threw in the health reasons (granted this more of a concern back home). My argument was focused more on the economic aspects of large families (home or abroad). Culturally, kids are an asset whilst in other countries kids can be portrayed as a burden (even with free schools). It is inevitable things will change for those of us living in the diaspora but more so for adoption of the local culture, lack of support (no village support) reasons rather than economic (the welfare state remains). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Safferz Posted October 2, 2013 N.O.R.F;980243 wrote: The discussion was broadly on the economic reasons for family planning (home or abroad) before you threw in the health reasons (granted this more of a concern back home). My argument was focused more on the economic aspects of large families (home or abroad). Culturally, kids are an asset whilst in other countries kids can be portrayed as a burden (even with free schools). It is inevitable things will change for those of us living in the diaspora but more so for adoption of the local culture, lack of support (no village support) reasons rather than economic (the welfare state remains). And my angle was quality of life, of which health, financial resources, education, etc are all interrelated factors. You can't just talk about economics without talking about health, you can't talk about health without talking about education, you can't talk about education without talking about economics. I'm not disagreeing that Somalis value children (as social capital), what I'm disputing is your point that children generate actual economic wealth back home, when all the indicators point to the contrary. There is a correlation between high birth rate and poverty (and the trend is similar for large families in Western countries, though there are exceptions), that's not really up for debate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oiler Posted October 2, 2013 Apophis;980244 wrote: The tyranny of liberals. "you're free to choose only what we choose for you, for only our perspective is the right one". They're worse than Hitler. They're interesting folks lol, you gotta let them talk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oiler Posted October 2, 2013 Safferz;980234 wrote: My arguments are actually quite well structured and relevant to the topic, I'm sorry you can't follow. But sure, here are some figures -- infant mortality rates by country ( CIA , World Bank ), maternal mortality rates by country ( CIA, WHO , UNICEF ), obstetric fistula in Somalia ( Fistula Foundation , UNFPA Fistula Campaign ), women's literacy rates in Somalia ( UNESCO ). Some key points and excerpts from the links and reports: - under five mortality rate is 225 per 1,000 live births (placing us in the bottom 3 in the world, in some rankings #1) - one in 10 Somali children die before their first birthday and one in 12 women die from pregnancy related causes (bottom 2 in world) - less than 30 per cent of the country has access to safe water - acute malnutrition afflicts 17 per cent of children - 2.12 million Somalis, more than half of whom are children, were in an Acute Food Security Crisis in 2012 - estimated incidence of obstetric fistula per 1000 deliveries is 3-5 - adult literacy rate: 49.7% of men, 25.8% of women Hi, I would like to better understand this since I don't buy into stats. Would you happen to know how they gathered those stats, and who were asked? what was the sample? few people or the entire population? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N.O.R.F Posted October 2, 2013 Safferz;980247 wrote: And my angle was quality of life, of which health, financial resources, education, etc are all interrelated factors. You can't just talk about economics without talking about health, you can't talk about health without talking about education, you can't talk about education without talking about economics. I'm not disagreeing that Somalis value children (as social capital), what I'm disputing is your point that children generate actual economic wealth back home, when all the indicators point to the contrary. There is a correlation between high birth rate and poverty (and the trend is similar for large families in Western countries, though there are exceptions), that's not really up for debate. Fair enough but none of what you wish to happen will happen (back home) unless the economic factors change first. When the economic factors dictate that xoolo and camel milk isn’t an adequate income those families will have to adjust. Adjusting could mean moving to the cities where education is more important. But then what would be the point if there are no jobs? It’s the performance of the economy which has a bearing on everything else (birth rates, poverty, levels of education etc). The indicators you’re referring to don’t take the nomadic perspective into account. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Safferz Posted October 2, 2013 Oiler;980251 wrote: Hi, I would like to better understand this since I don't buy into stats. Would you happen to know how they gathered those stats, and who were asked? what was the sample? few people or the entire population? Can you be more specific about why you "don't buy into stats"? Do you have the background in theoretical and applied statistics and other quantitative research methods to debunk what people with PhDs in those fields have compiled and analyzed? I'd love to hear more. You can look up how individual NGOs and government agencies conduct research and collect data, but to give you an idea, here's UNICEF, UNESCO and the World Bank on their methodologies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tallaabo Posted October 2, 2013 N.O.R.F;980219 wrote: Before one can tell others how to live as a family one needs to have lived in his/her own family. Data or not, I find privileged qurbo joogs telling mothers back home how to live their lives distasteful. Who are they to tell mums not to have another kid or to have 4 instead of 6? Why have kids at all? When she could have that nice big house to herself. 3 children or not, somewhere down the line there was a big family that didn't have much. They grazed the lands and tendered to the camel. The more the merrier to do this. If they were to 'plan', for reasons unknown, its likely you wouldn't be here today. But, because of our culture (more so before the wars), large families were the norm. There are large families doing well in the west. You are comparing apples and oranges. Having a large family is a necessity for our nomadic population but is a disadvantage for those living in urban areas. A large percentage of urban Somali men are technically nothing more than sperm donors to their wives. They contribute nothing to their families be it economical or parental support and only reappear every night to impregnate their poor wives. The offspring of these walking sperm banks are usually in the lowest socio-economic level of the society both in our countries and abroad. That is why Somali youth in the West perform so badly at schools and form one of the largest prison populations among ethnic groups. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
