The Political Rebirth Of Islamic Civilisation

[GAROODI]

Marksman;978019 wrote:

Hi Garoodi, I don't have much time these days, but I will try to respond to this when I can.

 

Also, I don't want to respond with something short.

Get a smart phone and type on the go Saxib that's how I do it. Interested to here your argument, you take the same perspective as Hobbesian if I remember correctly.

[RedSea]

xiinfaniin;977934 wrote:

GAROODI reminds brother Red Sea

 

He has a notable Islamist tendency yet a separatist at his core.

Hello brother Xiinfaniin. The idea of United Muslim states with Qur'an and Sunnah as their laws of governance appeals to me more than the concept of secular Somaliwayn. If we can get Somalis to unite around Islamic laws, then I'd support that as well. But as of today, I have hard time believing that secular Somali Government can effectively govern and do justice between Somali clans, only Islam is capable of that. I have no issue with unity, but it has to be genuine unity set upon Islam.

[Haatu]

RedSea;978040 wrote:

Hello brother Xiinfaniin. The idea of United Muslim states with Qur'an and Sunnah as their laws of governance appeals to me more than the concept of secular Somaliwayn. If we can get Somalis to unite around Islamic laws, then I'd support that as well. But as of today, I have hard time believing that secular Somali Government can effectively govern and do justice between Somali clans, only Islam is capable of that. I have no issue with unity, but it has to be genuine unity set upon Islam.

I concur.

[Wadani]

RedSea;978040 wrote:

Hello brother Xiinfaniin. The idea of United Muslim states with Qur'an and Sunnah as their laws of governance appeals to me more than the concept of secular Somaliwayn. If we can get Somalis to unite around Islamic laws, then I'd support that as well. But as of today, I have hard time believing that secular Somali Government can effectively govern and do justice between Somali clans, only Islam is capable of that. I have no issue with unity, but it has to be genuine unity set upon Islam.

Just because Islam is the divine truth does not make it a panacea for all of societies problems, because though the religion is perfect the people are not. Let's say we have a leader who tries to rally and unite Somalis under Islam, how will that all of a sudden bury the hostility and animosity between the various clans? People only respond to two things, fear and interests. Somalis need to either be forced into submission by a iron fisted strongman (his being secular or religious being a non issue), or have a just leader who can appeal to their interests by offering each clan and region their fair share of the political and economic pie. The root cause of our predicament is economic in nature, because it's nothing more than a myriad of clans fighting over finite resources. Look at the Arabs...they've only recently evolved past tribal blood fueds after the discovery of oil and the subsequent explosion of wealth in the region.

 

Islam is the truth, but however potent it's appeal humans are not spritual enough on a collective level to let it reign in their avaricious and selfish nature, which forms the basis for Somali clannism.

[kickz]

Wadani;978045 wrote:

Just because Islam is the divine truth does not make it a panacea for all of societies problems,

.

What a contradiction

[Wadani]

kickz;978046 wrote:

What a contradiction

In ur simple mind yes. U've miscontrued my criticism of human nature as an attack on Islam. Smh. Bro, u don't have a monopoly on Islaamnimo ee nagala fadhiiso with your zealousness. I was born Muslim and I will die a Muslim (insha'Allah), just like all my forefathers before me.

[RedSea]

Wadani;978045 wrote:

Just because Islam is the divine truth does not make it a panacea for all of societies problems, because though the religion is perfect the people are not.

Allah Subhana Wat'alla created all mankind to serve a purpose. That purpose is complete surrender to his will and to worship him alone without any partners. That is in essence the purpose of our creation. Allah has also sent down for us divine laws that serve both moral and practical while we exist on this planet. Those laws are complete with survival of societies on social, economical, and spiritual aspects. When these laws are applied correctly and sincerely, they work flawlessly and do indeed solve ALL societies issues. ""We have revealed to you the book which clarifies every matter" [XVI:89].

 

To give you an example, when an auto maker manufactures vehicles, they usually include with the vehicle, an owners' Manuel for the owner to use as reference for mechanical issues and other functions of the vehicle.

 

Let's say we have a leader who tries to rally and unite Somalis under Islam, how will that all of a sudden bury the hostility and animosity between the various clans? People only respond to two things, fear and interests. Somalis need to either be forced into submission by a iron fisted strongman (his being secular or religious being a non issue), or have a just leader who can appeal to their interests by offering each clan and region their fair share of the political and economic pie.

The nomadic tribes of Arabia were much worse than us. They were some of the most backward people to have ever lived. They worshiped idols, were constantly feuding with each-other, and even use to bury their own daughters alive, because they were afraid that the girl would shame the tribe. Allah gave them Prophet Muhammed Peace be Upon him and made them Muslims. As a result they went from being backwater collection of tribes in the middle of desert to giving birth to Islamic empire that shortly conquered both the Persian and Byzantine empires that dominated the region.

 

Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth so you may judge between the people by that which Allah has shown you. And do not be for the deceitful an advocate.

Surat An-Nisā' (The Women)

 

 

 

Is it then the judgment of (the times of) ignorance that they desire? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure? Quran 5:50

[RedSea]

DP

[RedSea]

Wadani;978047 wrote:

In ur simple mind yes. U've miscontrued my criticism of human nature as an attack on Islam. Smh. Bro, u don't have a monopoly on Islaamnimo ee nagala fadhiiso with your zealousness. I was born Muslim and I will die a Muslim (insha'Allah), just like all my forefathers before me.

To be Muslim doesn't just stop at the Masjid. It's a way of life. Saying I'm a Muslim yet arguing against the proposal of Islamic law doesn't make a whole a lot sense to me.

[Wadani]

RedSea;978054 wrote:

To be Muslim doesn't just stop at the Masjid. It's a way of life. Saying I'm a Muslim yet arguing against the proposal of Islamic law doesn't make a whole a lot sense to me.

Lol. Bizzarre, just bizzarre. I'm actually pro Islamic law. Ur quoting me ayahs from a book ive almost memorized in its entirety like im sort of gaal, it's laughable wallahi. If ur simple mind can't comprehend that implementation of Islamic will not change the nature of man, then thats ur problem, but don't go around patronizing others who would probably school u in all the branches of Islamic knowledge.

[RedSea]

And I'm saying implementation of Islamic will and has changed nature of man for the better. Perhaps you should go back and read the example I gave about the Arabian tribes and their Pre Islamic condition and how Islam completely transformed them.

 

If you memerize the Qur'an, you must not understand it too well. Otherwise you would know that Allah wouldn't have send it down in the first place if it wasn't meant to change the conditions of mankind.

[Wadani]

RedSea;978060 wrote:

And I'm saying implementation of Islamic will and has changed nature of man for the better. Perhaps you should go back and read the example I gave about the Arabian tribes and their Pre Islamic condition and how Islam completely transformed them.

 

If you memerize the Qur'an, you must not understand it too well. Otherwise you would know that Allah wouldn't have send it down in the first place if it wasn't meant to change the conditions of mankind.

Learn the difference between condition of man/society and the nature of man. And ur the one who needs to revisit the history of the early Muslims. The Aws and Khazraj almost had a skirmish in front of the Prophet (PBUH) himself after one sinister individual reminded them of their past fueds.

Islam was sent as a means to salvation and also as a set of laws around which society should be organized. But it was not sent to, nor can it, change the immutable nature of man as created by God himself.

[RedSea]

^ This guy.

 

Islam was sent as a means to salvation and also as a set of laws around which society should be organized.

I agree. And that is exactly what we need.

[Wadani]

RedSea;978062 wrote:

^

This guy.

 

 

 

I agree. And that is exactly what we need.

Yeah no doubt. It's funny how u went from making takfiir on me to agreeing with me all within a span of a few back and forth posts lool. Seef la bood baad tahay ninyahow lol.

[Khayr]

Easy there Wadani! Red Sea just misunderstood your perspective.

 

Wadani,

 

I agree with some of your points. The Shariah is our way of life and how we operate as an Ummah.

It never came as socialism or claimed economic prosperity.

In fact, the deen acknowledges that people have different strengths and amounts of wealth.

I was reading the ayat yesterday wherein Allah tells the rasul sallahu caliyhe wasilm, that if he had the wealth of the dunya that he could not guide nor change the hearts of people but that it is Allah that changes and binds the hearts.

 

The deen is not there to establish economic prosperity in society. Its focus is not job creation nor to establish a sort of romanticized civil society.

Do you know how muslims gained wealth when they had an empire?

 

The deen is their as our tool for salvation and for the few - elevation. To grow in iman, taqwa and under for the few - understanding.

We can't have this understanding of Shariah making everything better.

Examples of this are in Gaza and Egypt. They "elected" Islam and the world and arab shiekdoms "selected" to choke those countries

economically by withdrawing funds from them and creating all sorts of embargoes. The end result being the people of those nations becoming poorer as a result of "electing" Islam into their lives and government.