Richard Dawking mocked the Muslim World's intellectual inferiority

[Allyourbase]

I get it but do you have an opinion on what was discussed beyond it being interesting?

 

Waar dadkan su'al kajawabi karayn xagee lagakeenay lol

[Guje]

Allyourbase;991124 wrote:

I get it

but do you have an opinion on what was discussed beyond it being interesting?

 

Waar dadkan su'al kajawabi karayn xagee lagakeenay lol

First of all it was double post and this site is horrible when you hit submit you have to wait 30 seconds and when you refresh you find a double post. :mad:

 

I have no particular opinion but i agree with some of your points esp the proof hadiths but i also see dr kenny point in that its not a known tradition anywhere in islam so you can't pin him on this. hence its a draw, lets move on.

[Allyourbase]

Guje;991131 wrote:

First of all it was double post and this site is horrible when you hit submit you have to wait 30 seconds and when you refresh you find a double post. :mad:

 

I have no particular opinion but i agree with some of your points esp the proof hadiths but i also see dr kenny point in that its not a known tradition anywhere in islam so you can't pin him on this. hence its a draw, lets move on.

I know! I am having these problems myself.

 

My point Guje was not whether or not this was a widely practiced tradition today, I tried to prove that it was part and parcel of the religion and I tried to provide as much evidence as possible. Glad you accept the Hadiths I have provided, and please note I have only used Sheikhs that DrKenny named in his earlier post, and Hadiths that are agreed upon to be Sahih.

 

 

And in the spirit of this thread (i.e. science and Islam) let me stress that I am merely scratching the very surface here and if you dig deeper in the literature you will find even more bizarre rulings by the prophet, who prescribed camel urine as medicine to bunch of bedouins! He ordered grown men drink kaadida geela, and here is the evidence below:

 

Narrated Abu Qilaba: "Anas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle . (Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu'), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234)"

 

Now we can not talk about that barbaric punishment described above as its out of confines of this topic. But it is documented that the prophet did indeed preach the drinking of camel's milk, a practice that is performed by many muslims today as can seen here:

 

 

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/drinking-camel-urine-in-yemen-fob-000300-v20n8

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrIKcM-_0r8

 

And if you have more time please read the sorry *** explanation that this website has, and all the 'research' that was done on the subject.

 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/urine.htm

 

Now how do you expect any form of scientific advancement from someone who believes that this sort of behaviour is normal. I totally understand if the vast majority of nomads did not hear about this before, we are all force fed only parts of the religion that our parents are aware of, which for the most part is very little actually. The purpose of me bring these rulings out is for you to questions what has been passed down to you as holy and divine, and see it for what it really is.

[Miyir]

Allyourbase

 

Sulking breast of woman and its consequence is not ancient beliefs, many Somalis to this day still belief it as fact.

[DoctorKenney]

I'm gonna start this post by reminding everyone here, that this is not an Islamic forum. This is a Somali forum, which has some aspects of Islam, but it certainly is not an Islamic forum, we don't have any scholars in our presence, and every single allegation against Islam has been soundly refuted by Students of Knowledge in other forums, on other websites, and in other books.

 

AllYourBase posting here, is disingenuous and should not be tolerated, mainly because it distracts some of the Somalis here (who aren't very experienced in dealing with anti-Islamic polemics) and confuses them regarding their religion. This dishonest person is fully aware of this, and he's doing whatever he can to mislead the people from the Way of Allah, because he knows there aren't any knowledgeable Muslim Authors who are registered on SomaliaOnline.

 

You'll be able to find the responses to these arguments on many other sites, and there are dozens of sites which address his arguments.

 

They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it. Quran 9:32

 

First of all, what he's doing right now is appealing to emotion.There is no substance to his arguments whatsoever. I see none.

 

Here's the Hadith:

 

Narrated Abu Qilaba: "Anas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the

Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine)

. So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they

killed the shepherd of the Prophet

and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said,

"Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle

. (Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu'), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234)"

1. The Prophet executed these bandits because they committed acts of war against the Muslim State. They slaughtered an innocent shepherd and stole his possessions, and then they left, like typical bandits. They even tortured the Shepherd by piercing his eyes and leaving him to die a very painful death. So the Prophet inflicted the same punishment on them, and punished them the exact same way.

 

Quran 16:126: "And if you punish [an enemy, O believers], punish with an equivalent of that with which you were harmed. But if you are patient - it is better for those who are patient."

This man would have us believe that the Noble Prophet was a pacifist, when that's not what he was. He fought, and he treated bandits and criminals the way they deserved to be treated.

 

2. He's appealing to emotion when claiming that the Prophet prescribing camel urine mixed with camel milk as medicine, would be harmful and that it would be counter-productive. He needs to give evidence of this. HE is the one making the claim, not me.

 

If you read the Hadith carefully, it shows us that the Bedouin Arabs felt ill and were very sick, so the Prophet prescribed them this as a medicine, and AS A RESULT, they became healthy and strong. Now whether this incident is an exception to the rule, or a general rule is irrelevant. Because these men were cured of whatever illness they may have had, and became fully healthy again.

 

Animal Urine has been prescribed as medication for millenia, and even many modern "alternative medicine" groups prescribe horse urine (premarin) and many other types of urine as medication. Whether all of these medications work is debatable, but it's a fact that it's quite common as a medicine.

 

Perhaps it's a good idea to use camel urine as a medicine for certain illnesses today. Perhaps it's not a good idea. I don't know. Perhaps the Prophet's situation here was in and of itself a miracle from God. This is why we have modern scientific researchers who help find the best route to cure illnesses and diseases. If camel urine can be used as an effective medicine, then that's fine. If it can't be, then it should be discarded.

 

Sahih Bukhari

 

The Prophet said: There is a treatment for every sickness, and when the cure is applied to the disease it is cured with the permission of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious.

But AllYourBase needs to provide proofs for the following:

 

1. That the Prophet's punishment of these men was excessive and barbaric. He needs to provide objective evidence with strong foundations. I don't want to hear any of his flimsy personal opinions.

 

2. That the Prophet's punishment of these men was unjust, and again....He needs objective standards to judge these actions

 

3. That the prescription of camel urine mixed with camel milk harmed these Bedouin men and was counter-productive when it came to healing them. He needs to provide actual Hadiths which back his points up. I'm not gonna tolerate him changing the topic and going off on a tangent. Give me evidences which back up your point

[Guje]

Yeah, but what does science say about the actual benefits of camel urine ?? it could be beneficial you never know, the ancients could have stumbled upon it....human urine is drunk by some people as health tonic even now. so i don't think making this an issue will work either.

 

You could make headway if you concentrated on the larger philosophical issues rather than trivial matters like adult suckling and camel urine. your reasoning and logic is fine otherwise but it to good use.

[Allyourbase]

DrKenny has the time to write essay upon essay of irrelevant copy and paste material yet he still refuses to answer my basic 5 questions from the previous discussion, I just want this to be noted

 

Notice how he is constantly attempting to normalise these really vile and bizarre practices and always finding excuses like:

 

1- Oh no, the grown-***, bearded man drank the human milk out of a cup, there was no mouth-breast contact so its okay

 

2- Oh no, my beloved prophet tortured those men because they killed and stole from a shepherd, so its okay

 

3- Oh no, drinking camel urine is totally normal, and it is on you to bring evidence stating otherwise

 

I have not commented on the medical benefits (or lack of) of the kaadi of geela, I am just stating what your prophet ordered his followers to do and what is today perceived as scientific by your ilk. I am pointing out the level with which some are willing to shut down their faculty of reason, of what is acceptable or what is not.

 

AllYourBase posting here, is disingenuous and should not be tolerated, mainly because it distracts some of the Somalis here (who aren't very experienced in dealing with anti-Islamic polemics) and confuses them regarding their religion

How can I confuse anyone in the age of GOOGLE?

 

And what do you have to hide anyway? I thought the message of Allah was universal with no need for middlemen between a layperson and the Quran and Sunnah

 

Isdeji sxb, and go drink some kaadi latte

 

This man would have us believe that the Noble Prophet was a pacifist, when that's not what he was. He fought, and he treated bandits and criminals the way they deserved to be treated.

If you would like us to open an other discussion on the well documented barbaric acts of your prophet I am more than happy to do so, but this discussion relates to SCIENCE and ISLAM.

[Allyourbase]

Guje;991176 wrote:

Yeah, but what does science say about the actual benefits of camel urine ?? it could be beneficial you never know, the ancients could have stumbled upon it....

human urine is drunk by some people

as health tonic even now. so i don't think making this an issue will work either.

 

You could make headway if you concentrated on the larger philosophical issues rather than trivial matters like adult suckling and camel urine. your reasoning and logic is fine otherwise but it to good use.

 

Thats what is strange about it, human urine is a less concentrated form than that of a camel's, so it would then hold that, islamically speaking, drinking one's urine is also permissible. What do you think brother DrKenny?

 

We will come to the larger issues, I am just starting with some of the practices relating to science and Islam, that hole suckling issue was a massive digression. We will get to the larger concepts soon inshallah.

 

 

[DoctorKenney]

AllYourBase. I read your post, and you completely ignored my points. So I'm gonna copy/paste what I wrote before:

 

But AllYourBase needs to provide proofs for the following:

 

1. That the Prophet's punishment of these men was excessive and barbaric. He needs to provide objective evidence with strong foundations. I don't want to hear any of his flimsy personal opinions.

 

2. That the Prophet's punishment of these men was unjust, and again....He needs objective standards to judge these actions

 

3. That the prescription of camel urine mixed with camel milk harmed these Bedouin men and was counter-productive when it came to healing them. He needs to provide actual Hadiths which back his points up. I'm not gonna tolerate him changing the topic and going off on a tangent. Give me evidences which back up your point

 

Answer each one of the questions I posed, instead of your ridiculous insults and your sarcastic remarks. Prove your assertions with worthy evidence, and don't back out of it with your immature rhetoric.

 

I'm waiting

 

P.S. Anyone can see I responded to this clown's posts in thorough detail, but yet he doesn't have the ability to answer my questions or substantiate any of his points. This is embarrassing for him and his kind

[Allyourbase]

Let me get this, you want me to answer you when you have avoided answering my questions countless times?

 

Am I getting this right?

[DoctorKenney]

Anyone can see I answered all of your questions you deceptive person. Go back to every single one of my posts, and I answered them

 

But here you are, avoiding what I wrote and inserting your own ridiculous opinions backed by ZERO facts. Nice job, everyone can see for themselves what kind of person you are.

 

P.S. This is not an actual Islamic forum, so any allegations addressed against Islam should be copied/pasted and sent to the countless hundreds of forums which exist regarding Islamic History and Islamic Law. You're not doing yourself a favor here by posting something about Islam in a Somali forum.

[Allyourbase]

Are you saying that the Quran and the books of Muslim and Albukhari are not enough for people to learn about their religion? Are you actually saying that people can not discuss the rulings of Islam based only on the Quran and the Sahih Sunna?

 

 

Because this is huge sxb! I thought the biggest difference between Islam and other religions is the fact that Islam claims to do away with clergy and middlemen altogether, but apparently this is not the case!

 

Also if you want to speak of deception and ingenuity, it was you who was caught red handed in front of the entirety of this forum copying from irrelevant websites and omitting the parts you did not want to show the members here, you were caught sxb, way kugu caddahay

[DoctorKenney]

When we say Islam does away with clergy and middlemen, we are talking about purposes of worship and practising your religion.

 

If you worship, worship Allah. If you seek Help, seek Help from Allah. If you seek forgiveness, seek forgiveness from Allah. We are not like the Catholics who go to some Priest who "forgives" them of their sins. We are not like other religions which ask their clergy to "speak to God" for them.

 

But when it comes to knowledge, we ask those who are experts in knowledge. People who have studied Islam for years, and have books on every single Islamic topic conceivable, complete with references from the Quran and the Sunnah as well as the consensus of scholars. And there are literally thousands of scholars throughout history who have attained high levels of knowledge regarding Islam

 

P.S. Read the article that I copied and pasted, and read the bolded parts which I underlined, which agreed with my arguments. The Questions itself were irrelevant, and that is why I omitted them. I was only interested in the bolded hadith references. And I posted the link for all to see

 

P.S.S Respond to my points AllYourBase. I'm not gonna tolerate your deception and lies on this thread.

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;991183 wrote:

AllYourBase. I read your post, and you completely ignored my points. So I'm gonna copy/paste what I wrote before:

 

But AllYourBase needs to provide proofs for the following:

 

1. That the Prophet's punishment of these men was excessive, barbaric

and unjust

. He needs to provide objective evidence with strong foundations. I don't want to hear any of his flimsy personal opinions.

 

 

 

3. That the prescription of camel urine mixed with camel milk harmed these Bedouin men and was counter-productive when it came to healing them. He needs to provide actual Hadiths which back his points up. I'm not gonna tolerate him changing the topic and going off on a tangent. Give me evidences which back up your point

 

Answer each one of the questions I posed, instead of your ridiculous insults and your sarcastic remarks. Prove your assertions with worthy evidence, and don't back out of it with your immature rhetoric.

 

I'm waiting

 

P.S. Anyone can see I responded to this clown's posts in thorough detail, but yet he doesn't have the ability to answer my questions or substantiate any of his points. This is embarrassing for him and his kind

 

As I said before the barbaric acts by the prophet described above are out of topic, but in the interests of members that may be curious to hear my answers and just to show DrKenny goodwill by leading by example I will answer you. But if I do I am expecting an answer to my questions as well, I hope I am being fair here.

 

I have joined questions 1 and 2 as they are repeating the same thing.

 

1- The evidence of the barbarity of what your prophet had ordered is very clear in the very Hadith that I posted. We have a group of men who stole from the prophet and killed his shepherds, that act is very barbaric and criminal on their part. But it holds that what your prophet ordered upon them was equally barbaric and criminal. In this matter they were both equal in their actions so if you think them killing the poor shephard was vile then what your prophet did was just the same. Now where does the divine come into play, they could be excused for their ill ways but what excuse would you give a man who claims to be directly connected to the divine?

 

In fact, what he did was even worse because he did not kill them straight away, lets read the Hadith again:

 

 

Narrated Abu Qilaba: "Anas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle . (Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu'), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234)"

 

So for their punishment he went one step further as he:

 

A- Cut their hands and feet.

 

B- He branded their eyes with hot iron!!

 

C- He placed them with no arms or feet in the Harra desert, and when they would ask for water no water was given.

 

This is not just killing, it is torture! And your claims of his punishment to them being of equal standing to their crimes is rendered mute.

 

3- With regards to me providing a Hadith to say that the bedouins were in fact not healed is absurd. As a muslim you claim that in your religion that camels urine could be drank to cure illness, the burden of proof lies on your shoulders sxb. Why do I need to both bring up your claim regarding the camel urine and to counter is as well? Dont be ******.

 

I bring this up as something that is vile to human sensibilities, its disgusting and speaks of a very simple view of the world. Ask yourself why it was the camel's urine specifically and not the horse for instance? Why it was the camel and not the Llama? Because Mohamed was not aware of an animal called Llama so he would use things that were from his immediate surroundings.

 

I hope that is clear. Now please man up and answer these questions to close that chapter of the discussion:

 

 

1- Do you dispute the fact that the prophet of Islam order a woman to breastfeed a grown man with a beard despite her exclamation?

 

2- Do you dispute that his wife, the beloved Aisha continued the practice to allow men not related to her access to her quarters?

 

3- Do you dispute the fact that your own Sheikhs, Ibn Taymiyyah and Al Albaani are supporters of this particular ruling and its existance?

 

4- Do you have any Sahih hadiths that support your view of the use of a cup in this weird ritual? [optional]

 

5- What is your personal opinion on this practice? Beyond these religious texts, what is your personal view on this? What was the need that forced the prophet to make such bizarre rulings? [optional]

 

 

Much love ya akhi

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;991188 wrote:

When we say Islam does away with clergy and middlemen, we are talking about purposes of worship and practising your religion.

 

If you worship, worship Allah. If you seek Help, seek Help from Allah. If you seek forgiveness, seek forgiveness from Allah. We are not like the Catholics who go to some Priest who "forgives" them of their sins. We are not like other religions which ask their clergy to "speak to God" for them.

 

But when it comes to knowledge, we ask those who are experts in knowledge. People who have studied Islam for years, and have books on every single Islamic topic conceivable, complete with references from the Quran and the Sunnah as well as the consensus of scholars. And there are literally thousands of scholars throughout history who have attained high levels of knowledge regarding Islam

 

P.S. Read the article that I copied and pasted, and read the bolded parts which I underlined, which agreed with my arguments. The Questions itself were irrelevant, and that is why I omitted them. I was only interested in the bolded hadith references. And I posted the link for all to see

 

P.S.S

Respond to my points AllYourBase. I'm not gonna tolerate your deception and lies on this thread.

Could your God not have made islam simpler to understand for everyone without the need for these 'caalims'?

 

Also chill out, we are having a discussion here, you can 'not-tolorate' me all you want, what are you gonna do? Miyaad i habaari?