Richard Dawking mocked the Muslim World's intellectual inferiority

[Khayr]

Offbase,

 

I think that you have a learning disability. It is not the fault of

Islam that you can not understand the Quran and Hadith.

I feel sorry for you. انت مريضٌ جِداً

 

Good luck with your search for carpets!

[Allyourbase]

Carpets are found in your Quran brother Khayr, dont shoot the (wait for it.. ) messenger (ha!)

 

[Tallaabo]

Mr Allyourbase you have no argument here. Stars like bombs do produce projectiles when they explode in supernova. I am sure you don't want to get close to one. And yes all the living things are in pairs. The species you posted are also in pairs(male and female) regardless of how they reproduce. As for the earth, Allah indicated that it is a spherical body when he me revealed this verse and others like it.

"It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course." Quran 21:33

Although it is spherical, due to its immense size and gravitational pull this planet gives us the impression that it is spread out and flat. It is indeed this carpet-like property of the earth which makes it so homely and secure which Almighty Allah is asking us to think about as a blessing from Him.

[Khayr]

Offbase,

 

I am sorry about your over stay in grammar school and no for the last time, I will not give you a recommendation to graduate.

[Allyourbase]

Mr Allyourbase you have no argument here. Stars like bombs do produce projectiles when they explode in supernova. I am sure you don't want to get close to one.

Dear Tallaabo, we are not talking here about stars in other galaxies and supernovae, the Holy Quran is very clear in its Arabic:

 

السماء الدنيا

 

Which is the nearest heaven, i.e. the world's heaven.

 

Now the verse attempts to explain shooting stars as missiles directed at jinn who eavesdrop on Angels. But in doing so lumps them up with Stars, which would have been a fine explanation in the 7th century but we know today they are different things.

 

And yes all the living things are in pairs

. The species you posted are also in pairs(male and female) regardless of how they reproduce.

The implied purpose for creating things in pairs is for reproduction which is proven above that some species do not have a need for.

 

As with regards to your claim (and the Quran's) that all things are in pairs, I am sorry to say but that is not correct. If we are being scientific, then viruses are neither male nor female, same for bacterium which multiplies by cell division. In addition, there are a organisms that have both male and female parts, see Hermaphrodite:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite

 

As for the earth, Allah indicated that it is a spherical body when he me revealed this verse and others like it.

"It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course." Quran 21:33

Although it is spherical, due to its immense size and gravitational pull this planet gives us the impression that it is spread out and flat. It is indeed this carpet-like property of the earth which makes it so homely and secure which Almighty Allah is asking us to think about as a blessing from Him.

This makes no sense. It is clear that the use of 'rounded course' is describing the orbit of the Sun and the Moon and no the Earth. The Quran believed that the Earth is stationary in it is the Sun that orbits the earth as seen in Hadiths posted earlier. The verse translates as such:

 

And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.

 

You can see all the translation of this particular verse below, I do not know where 'rounded' comes from:

 

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=21&verse=33

 

I have noticed that you did not attempt to explain the Quran's claim of the impossibility of forecasting the rain and knowing whats in the womb, as you can see it is also supported by a Sahih Hadith. I would have also loved to see you explain how it is that people could sleep for over 300 years.

 

 

All of this clearly speaks of a simple understanding of the world by someone who lived in the 7th century. I cant believe how you cant see it.

[DoctorKenney]

Tallaabo....instead of addressing these arguments directly in an endless back-and-forth discussion that bears no fruit. Just leave it.

 

You're not knowledgeable enough to address these arguments head-on (as most people of course)

 

 

All of these arguments are all addressed on www.letmeturnthetables.com

 

Click on the link and go on the Articles section. There are plenty of other forums and articles that address this.

[Tallaabo]

DoctorKenney;991785 wrote:

Tallaabo....instead of addressing these arguments directly in an endless back-and-forth discussion that bears no fruit. Just leave it.

 

You're not knowledgeable enough to address these arguments head-on (as most people of course)

 

 

All of these arguments are all addressed on

www.letmeturnthetables.com

 

Click on the link and go on the Articles section. There are plenty of other forums and articles that address this.

Thanks doctor. I am certainly not an expert in Islam but will give my point of view, my understanding of the meaning.

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;991785 wrote:

Tallaabo....instead of addressing these arguments directly in an endless back-and-forth discussion that bears no fruit. Just leave it.

 

You're not knowledgeable enough to address these arguments head-on (as most people of course)

 

 

All of these arguments are all addressed on

www.letmeturnthetables.com

 

Click on the link and go on the Articles section. There are plenty of other forums and articles that address this.

 

Whoever is reading this should take a good look at the post quoted above.

 

The Quran should be the most elegant and clear communication we have from the creator of this universe. It should speak to every person, man, woman, child, with clarity and precision that can only come from the divine, this is one of it's alleged 'miracles'. Yet not many people seem to find it 'clear' or understand it without the need of a third party commentary track and 'explanation'.

 

Can you all see the inherent contradiction here? And this is before we begin to discuss all the scientific (An example seen above) and verse contradictions that it contains.

 

Tallaabo;991786 wrote:

Thanks doctor. I am certainly not an expert in Islam but will give my point of view, my understanding of the meaning.

And so you should! You should always have a point of view and an understanding of your own.

[Tallaabo]

Allyourbase;991780 wrote:

Dear Tallaabo, we are not talking here about stars in other galaxies and supernovae, the Holy Quran is very clear in its Arabic:

 

السماء الدنيا

 

Which is the nearest heaven, i.e. the world's heaven.

 

Now the verse attempts to explain shooting stars as missiles directed at

jinn

who eavesdrop on Angels. But in doing so lumps them up with Stars, which would have been a fine explanation in the 7th century but we know today they are different things.

 

 

 

The implied purpose for creating things in pairs is for reproduction which is proven above that some species do not have a need for.

 

As with regards to your claim (and the Quran's) that all things are in pairs, I am sorry to say but that is not correct. If we are being scientific, then viruses are neither male nor female, same for bacterium which multiplies by cell division. In addition, there are a organisms that have both male and female parts, see Hermaphrodite:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite

 

 

 

This makes no sense. It is clear that the use of 'rounded course' is describing the orbit of the Sun and the Moon and

no the Earth

. The Quran believed that the Earth is stationary in it is the Sun that orbits the earth as seen in Hadiths posted earlier. The verse translates as such:

 

And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies]

in an orbit are swimming

.

 

You can see all the translation of this particular verse below, I do not know where 'rounded' comes from:

 

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=21&verse=33

 

I have noticed that you did not attempt to explain the Quran's claim of the impossibility of

forecasting the rain

and

knowing whats in the womb

, as you can see it is also supported by a Sahih Hadith. I would have also loved to see you explain how it is that people could sleep for

over 300 years.

 

 

All of this clearly speaks of a simple understanding of the world by someone who lived in the 7th century. I cant believe how you cant see it.

Stars

In the Quran Allah takes about seven heavens. Of these seven the first is the one adorned with the stars, it is our universe. In additions to the supernovas which produce projectiles in the form of hot gases, comets are also the product of stardust. So this verse is not unscientific.

Pairs

The verse says everything is created in pairs and does not say these pairs are created for the purpose of reproduction. There are many things in nature which are in pairs both living and non-living, microscopic and macroscopic. The numerous different varieties of viruses and bacteria in nature could be pairs in different ways be it physical or functional. Humanity is still learning about nature and discoveries are being made on daily basis so we will see what sort of ways things are paired up. You can tell me there no pairs in the microbes because we do not know everything about them. No expert can claim to have a complete knowledge about his/her field. So this verse is also no unscientific.

Weather

Here is the verse again:

"Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does any one know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does any one know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things)".Quran 31:34

It does not say we cannot predict the weather or not see what is in the womb.

The carpet

The Quran is not a science book but is not wrong about science either. Its purpose is to give humanity a spiritual guidance so only deals with subjects briefly. The Earth is implied to be spherical by several verses describing the overlapping night and day and the spherical orbits. Yes rounded orbits, that is what the verse I mentioned says. The spread-out like a carpet feeling due to the earths size and gravitational pull is from our perspective and it is what makes this planet so habitable and homely. It is what the Almighty is asking us to reflect upon.

300 year sleep

This is so easy for the Creator who created everything, the Lord of life and death, the Lord who keeps us conscious and takes it away when He intends to. The Lord who nourishes our bodies.

My friend come up which better arguments please.

[Khayr]

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

 

Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.

 

خَتَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلَىٰ سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَىٰ أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ

 

Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.

وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَقُولُ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَبِالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَمَا هُم بِمُؤْمِنِينَ

 

And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers.

 

يُخَادِعُونَ اللَّهَ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَمَا يَخْدَعُونَ إِلَّا أَنفُسَهُمْ وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ

 

They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.

[Allyourbase]

Stars

In the Quran Allah takes about seven heavens. Of these seven the first is the one adorned with the stars, it is our universe. In additions to the supernovas which produce projectiles in the form of hot gases, comets are also the product of stardust. So this verse is not unscientific.

The verse is not unscientific? Using stars as 'missiles' aimed at devils is unscientific?

 

Come on sxb, I am prepared to give and take for the sake of the discussion but this is as unscientific as it gets. The fact that both were mentioned in the same verse clearly shows the Quran is confusing stars and meteorites.

 

You speak of the seven heavens, what do you mean by that?

 

Pairs

The verse says everything is created in pairs and does not say these pairs are created for the purpose of reproduction. There are many things in nature which are in pairs both living and non-living, microscopic and macroscopic. The numerous different varieties of viruses and bacteria in nature

could be pairs in different ways be it physical or functional

. Humanity is still learning about nature and discoveries are being made on daily basis so we will see what sort of ways things are paired up. You can tell me there no pairs in the microbes because we do not know everything about them. No expert can claim to have a complete knowledge about his/her field. So this verse is also no unscientific.

No I can tell you that bacteria are asexual i.e. is not 'paired' as the Quran would describe. That is a fact, and one that the Quran got wrong, you've got to see that. You can not argue with what could or could not be, because if this was the case we would be sitting here all night.

 

So either tell me how bacteria are made in pairs or accept this unscientific verse of Quran.

 

Weather

Here is the verse again:

"Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does any one know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does any one know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things)".Quran 31:34

It does not say we cannot predict the weather or not see what is in the womb.

Allah (SWT) is stating the five things that only Allah knows. This is explained by the Prophet in this hadith below (which is Sahih):

 

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) said, "Keys of the unseen knowledge are five which nobody knows but Allah . . . nobody knows what will happen tomorrow; nobody knows what is in the womb; nobody knows what he will gain tomorrow; nobody knows at what place he will die; and nobody knows when it will rain."

Sahih Bukhari 2:17:149

 

As is also stated by all the Tafsiir of the Quran. So again this is clear contradiction to modern science.

 

The carpet

The Quran is not a science book but is not wrong about science either. Its purpose is to give humanity a spiritual guidance so only deals with subjects briefly. The Earth is implied to be spherical by several verses describing the overlapping night and day and the spherical orbits. Yes rounded orbits, that is what the verse I mentioned says. The spread-out like a carpet feeling due to the earths size and gravitational pull is from our perspective and it is what makes this planet so habitable and homely. It is what the Almighty is asking us to reflect upon.

The Quran mentions the flat state of the earth because the understanding of the Prophet implied so. To further illustrate my point, lets look at the specific verses that mention the rising and setting place of the sun. These talk about the sun rising from and setting on fixed places which again goes on to strengthen the view of the Quran, i.e. that the Earth is indeed flat with fixed points at which the sun sets and rises again.

 

Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.

Qur'an 18:86

 

Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom.

Qur'an 18:90

 

As you must know the sun does not rise or set at a fixed place do its orbit around the sun, that is just impossible. But the book assumes the simple view of the world popular at the time that there was a fixed position whereby the sun would set and rise from again.

 

 

300 year sleep

This is so easy for the Creator who created everything, the Lord of life and death, the Lord who keeps us conscious and takes it away when He intends to. The Lord who nourishes our bodies.

You lost me there

 

Ask yourself, why did all of these amazing miracles happen only in the past? Would it not be the case that a physical miracle today would lead to many people embracing islam?

 

I understand you are trying to defend your faith but you must clearly see how this is just plain myth. Our bodies would not last one year let alone 300 years. Open your eyes sxb.

[Raamsade]

Allyourbase;991681 wrote:

It really is a difficult matter sifting through the thousands of Hadiths one would find in various book. But Muslim scholars have created a system of ranking for Hadiths based on their authenticity and it is:

 

- Sahih (the most authentic of Hadiths, this is as good as it gets and these Hadiths can never be doubted)

 

- Hasan

 

- Daciif

 

- Mucalaq

 

And others that are of unknown origins.

 

 

Now all of the Hadiths that I have provided here are of the Sahih label, so their authenticity can never be doubted. Now what do you do in this case? And this is without going through the various interpretations and commentary.

Even if you accept the dubious Islamic criteria for judging Hadiths as sahih or weak, nothing is said about whether or not the content of the hadith is true or not. That is what ultimately matters. Is it true the sun sets in a muddy spring as one sahih hadith narrates?

 

Truth and sahih are two different things. Sahih merely means there is established chain of narration. But what if the person who started off the chain of narration was telling a lie or simply wrong? Islam and Muslims has no way let along desire to discern truth from falsehood. It is as if the truth doesn't matter in Islam. Only tradition and dogma.

 

May Allah have mercy on your wretched souls!

 

Wa bilaa towfiiq

[Raamsade]

Actually Islamic cosmology, as I have said before, is decidedly geocentric. According Islamic texts the earth is flat and is enclosed by seven concentric domes. These domes are physical things not layers of "atmosphere." You can actually take a ladder and climb the inner most concentric dome. Stars are lights decorating the dome and falling stars are spears thrown at Iblis I think if I'm not mistaken. Hell even the Islamic imperative to face East when praying screams of flat earth because if Islam subscribed to round earth, what's the point of facing East? You can face West and still face Mecca.

 

May Allah help us poor souls!

[Tallaabo]

Allyourbase;991803 wrote:

The verse is not unscientific? Using stars as 'missiles' aimed at devils is unscientific?

 

Come on sxb, I am prepared to give and take for the sake of the discussion but this is as unscientific as it gets. The fact that both were mentioned in the same verse clearly shows the Quran is confusing stars and meteorites.

 

You speak of the seven heavens, what do you mean by that?

 

 

 

No I can tell you that bacteria are asexual i.e. is not 'paired' as the Quran would describe. That is a fact, and one that the Quran got wrong, you've got to see that. You can not argue with what could or could not be, because if this was the case we would be sitting here all night.

 

So either tell me how bacteria are made in pairs or accept this unscientific verse of Quran.

 

 

 

Allah (SWT) is stating the five things that only Allah knows. This is explained by the Prophet in this hadith below (which is Sahih):

 

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) said, "Keys of the unseen knowledge are five

which nobody knows but Allah

. . . nobody knows what will happen tomorrow;

nobody knows what is in the womb

; nobody knows what he will gain tomorrow; nobody knows at what place he will die; and

nobody knows when it will rain

."

Sahih Bukhari 2:17:149

 

As is also stated by all the Tafsiir of the Quran. So again this is clear contradiction to modern science.

 

 

 

The Quran mentions the flat state of the earth because the understanding of the Prophet implied so. To further illustrate my point, lets look at the specific verses that mention the rising and setting place of the sun. These talk about the sun rising from and setting on fixed places which again goes on to strengthen the view of the Quran, i.e. that the Earth is indeed flat with fixed points at which the sun sets and rises again.

 

Till, when

he reached the setting-place of the sun

, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.

Qur'an 18:86

 

Till,

when he reached the rising-place of the sun

, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom.

Qur'an 18:90

 

As you must know the sun does not rise or set at a fixed place do its orbit around the sun, that is just impossible. But the book assumes the simple view of the world popular at the time that there was a fixed position whereby the sun would set and rise from again.

 

 

 

 

You lost me there

 

Ask yourself, why did all of these amazing miracles happen only in the past? Would it not be the case that a physical miracle today would lead to many people embracing islam?

 

I understand you are trying to defend your faith but you must clearly see how this is just plain myth. Our bodies would not last one year let alone 300 years. Open your eyes sxb.

Now you are going in circles desperately trying to twist the words so others can see things from your point of view, a point of view which has no basis in reality.

The Quran did not say the sun sets in a "place" or rises from a "place". It only describes an environment/scene/view at the setting and rising of the sun. Much like someone describing the surroundings on a tropical beach at sun set. For your benefit here are four translations of the verses you mentioned and they only describe a scene.

Quran18:86

YUSUFALI: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.

SHAKIR: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

Sahih International: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."

 

Quran 18:90

YUSUFALI: Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.

PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom.

SHAKIR: Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It;

Sahih International:Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had not made against it any shield.

 

Mate give up, there is no point in searching for faults in the Quran because there are non.

[Allyourbase]

One question, have you ever read the Quran in Arabic?

 

Because if you did you would not confuse matlac al shams and maghrib al shams with environments:

 

مطلع الشمس

 

مغرب الشمس

 

These are clear descriptors of a place, and this is further made clear with the use of wajadahaa وجدها which refers to the sun as a literal object and translates to 'he found it setting' and 'he found it rising'.

 

 

The Quran did not say the sun sets in a "place" or rises from a "place"

Dude look at the translation you posted:

 

 

YUSUFALI: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water:

 

PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring

 

SHAKIR: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea

 

 

If this is not clear enough then I do not know what is

 

He travelled and reached the place where the sun sets, and found it setting into a spring. You can not twist this to mean anything but what it says sxb, and its very clear.

 

This idea of the sun going somewhere at night (i.e. the earth being flat) is also common in Hadith, which is clearly in support for the verses above:

 

Narrated Abu Dhar: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west.

Sahih Bukhari 4:54:421

 

This is an authentic Hadith so you can not dispute both the Hadith and the verse.

 

Try an other explanation, or perhaps just say that Allah the all powerful is capable of doing so as you did with the 300 years sleep cycle