Richard Dawking mocked the Muslim World's intellectual inferiority

[DoctorKenney]

Allyourbase;990983 wrote:

You did not answer me DrKenny, are the Hadiths that I have posted Sahih or not?

 

Simple question requires simple answers.

 

And please dont copy and paste your argument, if I wanted I could copy and paste my arguments from the myriad websites that have anti islamic essays, I only get sources and put them here for authentication.

 

Now answer my question please. I do not care if it was one incident or a ruling, this falls to everyones own sense of judgment as seen in how Aisha thought its a general ruling and the other wives did not.

 

Lets stick to the basics, are these Sahih or not?

Read my first paragraph. I addressed that Hadith. It was regarding an isolated incident during the lifetime of the Prophet, regarding Abu Hudayfah, and the ruling was later abrogated by the Prophet himself in another Sahih Hadith. The Quran itself abrogates it, and the scholars unanimously agree with the later ruling. Almost all of the scholars, almost all of the Sahabi, the Prophet, and the Quran all forbid this.

 

So no, it's not true. Whatever you believe about it, is incorrect. Since I gave you clear evidence that breastfeeding is not valid after 2 years of age, then there's no point in me discussing the topic any further. It's pretty much indisputable now, that this is forbidden.

 

We're running around in circles now, and there's no point in continuing this. I gave you the evidences, I refuted your points, and the other Brothers on this forum all provided evidences proving that you are wrong. All you're going to do is reiterate the same thing, but the evidence is above.

[Allyourbase]

Dude, can you answer a simple question:

 

Do you consider these hadiths to be Sahih:

 

1- The prophet ordered this practice in this Sahih Hadith:

 

' A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I see on the face of Abu Hudhaifa (signs of disgust) on entering of Salim (who is an ally) into (our house), whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Suckle him. She said: How can I suckle him as he is a grown-up man? Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) smiled and said: I already know that he is a young man. 'Amr has made this addition in his narration that he participated in the Battle of Badr and in the narration of Ibn 'Umar (the words are): Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) laughed.

 

Sahih Muslim

 

Book 008, Number 3424

 

 

Zainab daughter of Abu Salama reported: I heard Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon himy, saying to 'A'isha: By Allah, I do not like to be seen by a young boy who has passed the period of fosterage, whereupon she ('A'isha) said: Why is it so? Sahla daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, I swear by Allah that I see in the face of Abu Hudhaifa (the signs of disgust) on account of entering of Salim (in the house), whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Suckle him. She (Sahla bint Suhail) said: He has a beard. But he (again) said: Suckle him, and it would remove what is there (expression of disgust) on the face of Abu Hudhaifa. She said: (I did that) and, by Allah, I did not see (any sign of disgust) on the face of Abu Hadhaifa.

 

Book 008, Number 3428

 

 

So basically the prophet ordered this poor lady to suckle a man with a beard! Do you refute any of that DrKenny?

 

2- Aisha who was the wife of the prophet of Islam (arguably his favourite after Khadija), adopted this bizarre ritual, and would order her sisters to suckle any stranger man she wanted to have access to her quarters.

 

A'isha umm al-muminin took that as a precedent for whatever men she wanted to be able to come to see her. She ordered her sister, Umm Kulthum bint Abi Bakr as-Siddiq and the daughters of her brother to give milk to whichever men she wanted to be able to come in to see her. The rest of the wives of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, refused to let anyone come in to them by such nursing. They said, 'No! By Allah! We think that what the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered Sahla bint Suhayl to do was only an indulgence concerning the nursing of Salim alone. No! By Allah! No one will come in upon us by such nursing!'

 

Muwatta' Malik

Book 30, Number 30.2.12

[Allyourbase]

I just saw where DrKenny copied his block of text that he is arguing with:

 

http://islam.worldofislam.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=742:what-is-the-ruling-on-drinking-ones-wifes-milk

 

Notice how the question is:

 

What is the ruling on drinking one’s wife’s milk?

 

:D

 

What dishonest post from you sxb, trying to mix the suckling of a stranger which is a very specific matter in your religion with a weird fetish of a man wanting to drink his wife's milk, you've been caught!!

[DoctorKenney]

Actually, I took that page from the Islam-Qa website.

 

READ THAT BLOCK OF TEXT. It expressly forbids breastfeeding at least 5 different times throughout the article. A man drinking his wife's milk is strange, but it's permitted. But the answer of the Fatwa itself had nothing to do with the question.

 

What's definitely not allowed is the suckling of a grown adult with the aim of making that person a Mahram. DUDE, READ IT. You obviously didn't understand it if that's the conclusion you're trying to reach. I even highlighted the parts I wanted you to focus on, and you totally want to ignore it!. I'm not comparing anything, I'm giving you specified rulings from the Sahabi themselves.

 

There's plenty of resources in the Hadiths and the Quran which agree with my position, and I already stated that the previous ruling was abrogated. I'm repeating myself here, and there's no use in continuing this. If Khayr or MagicBird or someone else wants to add to my points, by all means do so

[DoctorKenney]

I really can't see where this is going, and I can't see any further points that AllYourBase has brought up that Khayr, Magicbird or I haven't already addressed.

 

The evidences are quite clear, and the ruling is very clear.

 

That's all I have to say about this

[Allyourbase]

Wherever you got it from you disingenuously omitted the question which clearly said:

 

What is the ruling on drinking one’s wife’s milk?

 

That was a really sneaky move on your part, and you have been caught red handed.

 

You are still avoiding my very very simple and straightforward question. The reason why you are avoiding them because you know the Hadiths that I have quoted are indeed Sahih. And in denouncing my posts you are also avoiding the fact that both Aisha, the wife of your prophet, and your hero, ibn Taymiya, the man you named yourself as one of your own Sheikhs have agreed that the suckling of grown men in Islam is infact NOT abrogated.

 

This is clear for all to see. Remember dear readers that this man was flaming an other poster in this very thread for what he labeled 'Fatwa Shopping':

 

Second of all, anyone on the internet can go "fatwa shopping" and find strange statements from obscure Sheikhs

 

And went on to name Ibn Taymiyyah as one of his trusted sources here:

 

The vast majority of scholars, men such as

Ibn Taymiyyah

, Qayyim, Abdul Wahhab, and even contemporary Sheikhs like

Albaani

and Al Uthaymeen and Al Munajjid state otherwise. But according to you, you want to overlook the vast examples stating otherwise and focus on a select few which confirm your bias.

And once I have presented my argument of how bizarre [even by drkenny's own admission] some of the rituals in islam are, and how Aisha, the wife of the prophet did indeed practice the suckling of grown men via proxy of her sisters. And went to the troubles of finding not one but two hadiths in which these are acts are specifically mentioned and explained, both being sahih. One whereby the prophet himself ordering a woman to do it, and smiling when she objects that the man in question is indeed an adult. The other whereby the other wives are criticizing Aisha, Mohamed's most beloved wife for practicing this ritual. Two hadiths the he refuses to answer whether they are Sahih or not.

 

And once I have added that his OWN SHEIKHS, the ones that he mentioned himself above, ibn Taymiyyah AND Al Albany both agreed with Aisha, what does DrKenny do?

 

[Listen to Al Albany talking about this issue and clearly stating the views of Ibn Taymiyah and himself:

]

 

He goes and FATWA SHOPS himself, trying to find OTHER Sheikhs that agree with him, disregarding the men he was bigging up a moment ago. Not only that but he disingenuously omits the part that indicates that the wall of text that he carelessly copied is infact intended for a different question about a man drinking his own wife's milk.

 

If this is not confirmation bias, then I do not know what is

 

You have been caught sxb , I am sorry

[Allyourbase]

I hope this discussion has proved how fickle the understanding of muslims, even those who claim some religious knowledge of the real rulings of this religion. I am sure both DoctorKenny and Khayr were shocked to hear this really weird practice by Aisha and the Prophet. I think both members here are well meaning, they want to represent their religion and defend it, but what they are missing in doing so is actually thinking about what they are copying and pasting. They are so busy trying to get those Hasanaat and the browny points that will get them to their Jannah that they get into some really murky situations. Evidently seen here by drKenny taking out part of the huge wall of essay just because it would be clear that the question is not relevant to this discussion. Also evident by his own desertion of the very Sheikhs he proclaimed to be authorities on religious matters, and trying to find other ones purely because their opinions embarrassed him in this discussion, clearly Fatwa Shopping, an act he was criticising just earlier today.

 

Its a shame and it speaks of the lack of reasoning that we suffer from today.

[Khayr]

Now answer my question please. I do not care if it was one incident or a ruling, this falls to everyones own sense of judgment as seen in how Aisha thought its a general ruling and the other wives did not.

Your are being very dishonest.

This is not a debate but a ridiculing of Islam and you should

be banned for this!

[Allyourbase]

Oh should I?

 

You are a very funny character sxb, isdeji, and stop reporting me to the mods

 

This is a discussion, no amount of censorship would take out these hadiths from the books. I mean, even if you could censor me, are you going to censor Sahih Muslim? LOL

[DoctorKenney]

Fatwa shopping ONLY applies when you're looking for a ruling that contradicts the established consensus of the Scholars. What part of that don't you understand?

 

For example, it's unanimously agreed upon that Riba is interest, and therefore forbidden. Almost all scholars can agree on this. Some regular person, can look at this and then go "Fatwa Shopping" ie. Find a Sheikh who permits dealing in Riba, and then claim that this is fact. That's what Fatwa Shopping is. My claim, and my belief, is in agreement with virtually all of the Sahabi, almost all of the scholars, and almost all of the Sheikhs throughout the last 14 centuries.

 

What you haven't managed to prove, is that the consensus of the scholars agree with you. And I have proven to you that the vast majority of Sheikhs, Scholars, Companions and the like agree with me here. But no, you want to focus on the few who disagree with the common consensus, and then claim that this is the correct opinion. Remember what I said earlier: In Fiqh, there are sometimes several rulings given, the science of Fiqh tries to determine which is the more correct ruling and which one isn't. I've given you plenty of evidence of what the correct ruling is.

 

And I said it twice already, that these Hadiths were abrogated in favor of the later hadith, which expressly forbids such actions. The same way how alcohol was once permitted in Shariah, but then was prohibited as time went on.

 

And I said this earlier:

 

And in Islam, individual Sheikhs are never taken as an authority (on religious rulings).

What's taken as an authority is the CONSENSUS. ie. What they all agree on, and then cross-reference on whether their beliefs are in accordance to the evidences

. Each individual person is prone to making mistakes, which is why we look towards what they collectively believe, and hope that their collective beliefs are correct.

And I intentionally chose not to include the question itself, because it was irrelevant to the discussion. I posted the answer to the question because it references sources which I myself can use. The sources themselves say NUMEROUS times, that breastfeeding is only valid for the first 2 years of someone's life. And the block of text I referenced even said before getting into any details:

 

Before answering this question, we must explain some important points about the rulings (ahkaam) concerning breastfeeding (al-radaa’).

So it went into detail about the rulings of breastfeeding, how much is enough, at what age should it end, and other details. The references I wanted you to read were bolded, and you can read them yourself. I copied and pasted the entire answer, and it confirms what's been said in the Hadiths, and the opinions of almost all the scholars. Anyone can see these hadiths for themselves, and the Hadiths which expressly forbid this practice from carrying on.

 

And if you're going to claim "Checkmate" at least do so when you're actually sure that you won the argument. You've done nothing but repeat yourself in the above post. Not a good look

[DoctorKenney]

Allyourbase;990991 wrote:

I hope this discussion has proved how fickle the understanding of muslims, even those who claim some religious knowledge of the real rulings of this religion. I am sure both DoctorKenny and Khayr were shocked to hear this really weird practice by Aisha and the Prophet. I think both members here are well meaning, they want to represent their religion and defend it, but what they are missing in doing so is actually thinking about what they are copying and pasting. They are so busy trying to get those Hasanaat and the browny points that will get them to their Jannah that they get into some really murky situations. Evidently seen here by drKenny taking out part of the huge wall of essay just because it would be clear that the question is not relevant to this discussion. Also evident by his own desertion of the very Sheikhs he proclaimed to be authorities on religious matters, and trying to find other ones purely because their opinions embarrassed him in this discussion, clearly Fatwa Shopping, an act he was criticising just earlier today.

 

Its a shame and it speaks of the lack of reasoning that we suffer from today.

Allyourbase, I live near a Church, and I was unfortunate enough to be in close proximity to Missionary Christians for most of my life. I already know about this ruling, I've heard this argument regarding breastfeeding when I was a teenager, so don't try and make any assumptions of what I don't know or do know. And I remember hearing a Muslim (I think it was Abdullah al Andalusi or Shabir Ally?) soundly refute the Missionary in a debate about this topic. But this was years ago.

 

I've heard practically every single argument brought forth against Islam. I haven't heard a new argument in at least the last 3 or 4 years. Everything has been rehashed.

 

The rulings stand. AllYourBase hasn't been able to refute them, and all he's been able to do is reference some irrelevant ruling which has been abrogated during the lifetime of the Prophet. It is the same as if AllYourBase references Surah 4:43 "O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say....." and then he points to that verse and claim "Hey! Islam permits drinking alcohol as long as we're not drunk while performing the prayer!"

 

It's a dishonest point. It speaks to either his 1. Bias or 2. Extreme Ignorance, regarding this issue.

 

The ruling was abrogated, and the later ruling still stands:

 

Sahih Bukhari Book 48 Hadith 815

 

Once the Prophet came to me while a man was in my house. He said, "O 'Aisha! Who is this (man)?" I replied, "My foster brothers" He said, "O 'Aisha! Be sure about your foster brothers,

as fostership is only valid if it takes place in the suckling period (before two years of age).

"

And I have given you numerous fatwas, rulings, and opinions from thousands of Sheikhs, Scholars, and Sahabi who unanimously agree that the breastfeeding after a certain age is no longer valid.

 

Khayr, MagicBird, he hasn't done anything to refute either of our points. There's no use in debating this topic any further, as anything said anymore will be rehashed

[DoctorKenney]

Khayr, there's no use in continuing this with him at all.

 

I'm gonna say this again, so people can understand me:

 

And in Islam, individual Sheikhs are never taken as an authority (on religious rulings). What's taken as an authority is the CONSENSUS. ie. What they all agree on, and then cross-reference on whether their beliefs are in accordance to the evidences. Each individual person is prone to making mistakes, which is why we look towards what they collectively believe, and hope that their collective beliefs are correct.

 

What Allyourbase is doing is completely dishonest, and he knows it. He quotes Hadiths, claims that those hadith rulings are still valid to this day, and then he claims that this is the valid view of the consensus of scholars, and then he tries to flip the situation and make it as if his opinion is the correct one. And then he tries to flip it on me and claim that I'm the one with the misunderstanding!

 

Read above, read everything I posted, and I've given plenty of evidence. So what if Aisha and Sheikh Albaani made mistakes? What does this have to do with anything?

[Allyourbase]

I only repeated the questions because you refused to answer a very simple, straightforward question on many occasions.

 

I did not ask you if it was abrogated or not, I simply said, are the Hadiths that I have posted Sahih or not. To which you could have simply either said yes or no. But just like you took the part of that post you thought would weaken your argument and disingenuously posted that wall of text you are evading my simple questions.

 

I know why, and everyone who is reading right now too knows why. Because you know they are Sahih.

 

You also know that the wife of the prophet did not give a [you know what] about what you call 'consensus' and followed the Hadith of your prophet, which clearly shows that it is infact not abrogated. Do you know who agrees with me?

 

Yes, Al Albany and Ibn Taymiyyah, YOUR VERY OWN Sheikhs, that you were quoting earlier in the day. You chose to cite them when you thought their views aligned with yours, as AUTHORITIES of fiqh as you have yourself stated. And yet you chose to ABANDON them when their views embarrassed you in this discussion. You ran and googled your own view, found a random article answering the question of a man with the weird fetish of drinking his own wife's milk, deleted the part that referred to the question and posted the rest thinking that you were not going to be caught but you were

 

So to put it simply, our friend has abandoned the school of Ibn Taymiyyah and Al Albany that he was advocating and is claiming that in this matter he is right, and the wife of the prophet, is in fact wrong.

 

[i would not want to be you on Judgment day]

 

So yeah, checkmate sxb.

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;991001 wrote:

 

What Allyourbase is doing is completely dishonest, and he knows it. He quotes Hadiths, claims that those hadith rulings are still valid to this day, and then he claims that this is the valid view of the consensus of scholars, and then he tries to flip the situation and make it as if his opinion is the correct one. And then he tries to flip it on me and claim that I'm the one with the misunderstanding!

 

Read above, read everything I posted, and I've given plenty of evidence.

So what if Aisha and Sheikh Albaani made mistakes

? What does this have to do with anything?

So FINALLY you agree that Aisha is a sinner? And she, along with Albany and Ibn Taymiyyah's understanding of this matter is morbid, immoral, strange and definitely not part of islam?

 

 

Do you agree?

 

(Say yes )

[DoctorKenney]

I never denied they were Sahih, and if I'm mentioning that this ruling was abrogated, then I'm implicitly acknowledging that it was valid at one point in time! If it was posted in Sahih Bukhari or Muslim, then yeah.....all indicators are saying that they're Sahih.

 

There is no SCHOOL of Albaani or Ibn Taymiyyah. Those scholars were men, and weren't perfect, and had made mistakes. (And there are plenty of examples of other Scholars that make mistakes). Don't try and make it seem as if I'm abandoning them, or that I'm denying that they're authorities on Fiqh issues. I'm denying their rulings, because there's a stronger opinion, and the stronger opinion is that the ruling is incorrect and that the breastfeeding of a person is only until the person reaches 2 years of age.

 

So yes, Albaani was wrong on this. Ibn Taymiyyah was wrong on this. Whereas Umar bin Khattab, Ali ibn Abi Talib, Abdullahi ibn Masud, Ibn Abbas, Ibn Umar, Abu Hurayrah as well as the Prophet's other wives were correct on this. How many times do I have to repeat this point for you to fully understand it?

 

On one hand, we have a couple Scholars and Aisha asserting a point. On the other hand, we have thousands of Sahabi, Scholars and the Prophet's other wives asserting the opposite point. But the 2nd group have FAR more evidences and their understanding of this issue is unanimous.

 

And the block of text that I referenced, is still valid. There is no "being caught" here, because the answer to the question was stated in full. The nature of Islamic Fatwas, is that they tend to go in extreme detail regarding a topic, and then reference the points they want to reference, AND THEN they go on to answer the question. If you read the actual text, it confirms EVERYTHING that I stated on this thread. Because I highlighted the points that I wanted you to read, and if you read that Scholar's essay, he says repeatedly that breastfeeding is only valid for the first 2 years of someone's life.

 

Here's the link to it: http://islamqa.com/en/2864 Everyone read it

 

And he references the Quran here:

 

The breastfeeding must happen within the first two years of the child’s life, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “The mothers shall give suck to their children for two whole years, (that is) for those (parents) who desire to complete the term of suckling…” [al-Baqarah 2:233].

So there's nothing for me to say here. The argument is done, it's finished, and I addressed everything I wanted to address (and repeated myself several times too)