Richard Dawking mocked the Muslim World's intellectual inferiority

[spartacus]

Khayr;990825 wrote:

Spart,

 

Syria is a mess and everyone is entrenched in their sectarian ways. However; that does not negate how the world views Iran - A Theocracy!

Anyways, all these

things are tangents.

are you supporting iran theocracy, when they view every non shia as potential enemy, these shias are thugs and sectarian leaders and should be deprived them to have any kind of weapon, they are threat to middle east stability.

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;990788 wrote:

First of all, don't "brother" me. Second of all, anyone on the internet can go "fatwa shopping" and find strange statements from obscure Sheikhs, and then claim that this is representative of the countless thousands of Sheikhs worldwide. If you believe that this is representative of their collective beliefs, then give me evidence stating so.

 

I can find Sheikhs claiming that Homosexuality is permitted in Islam. Doesn't mean it's true. It's such a basic and weak argument, that it doesn't require any thinking.

 

The vast majority of scholars, men such as

Ibn Taymiyyah

,

Qayyim

,

Abdul Wahhab

, and even contemporary Sheikhs like

Albaani

and

Al Uthaymeen

and

Al Munajjid

state otherwise. But according to you, you want to overlook the vast examples stating otherwise and focus on a select few which confirm your bias.

 

Pathetic.

Okay everyone, lets collectively have a good look at Kenny's heros, and specifically those he personally mentioned in the post quoted above. I want to do this just so you see the quality of those that the guy looks up to and their level of intellect. Now please ask yourself what sort of a person would result from the uninhibited consumption of what the 'Shiekhs' above have devoted their sorry lives to, especially in relation to the sciences which is what this thread is all about.

 

Lets begin:

 

Al Uthaymeen:

 

ولكن الشأن كل الشأن فيما يذكر من أن الأرض تدور وأن الشمس ثابتة وأن اختلاف الليل والنهار يكون بسبب دوران الأرض حول الشمس

فإن هذا القول باطل

يبطله ظاهر القرآن فإن ظاهر القرآن والسنة يدل على أن الذي يدور حول الأرض أو يدور على الأرض هي الشمس

Who basically states that 'It is apparent from the Islamic evidences that they confirm that it is the sun which revolves around the earth, and by its revolving the alternation of night and day takes place on the surface of the earth.'

 

He calaims that the Earth is stationary and it is in fact the Sun that rotates around the earth thus causing the alternation of night and day. Please note that we are not talking about a man who lived 500 years ago, he died very recently in 2001!

 

If you would like to read his text in full please check his official website:

http://www.ibnothaimeen.com/all/noor/article_6463.shtml

 

Moving on to Ibn Baz:

 

"In his 1966 article, ibn Baz did claim that the sun orbited the earth, and that "the earth is fixed and stable, spread out by God for mankind and made a bed and cradle for them, fixed down by mountains lest it shake".[30] As a result of the publication of his first article, ibn Baz was ridiculed by Egyptian journalists as an example of Saudi primitiveness ... In 1982 Ibn Baz published a book, Al-adilla al-naqliyya wa al-ḥissiyya ʿala imkān al-ṣuʾūd ila al-kawākib wa ʾala jarayān al-shams wa al-qamar wa sukūn al-arḍ ("Treatise on the textual and rational proofs of the rotation of the sun and the motionlessness of the earth and the possibility of ascension to other planets"). In it, he republished the 1966 article, together with a second article on the same subject written later in 1966, and repeated his belief that the sun orbited the earth."

 

He was uttering such lunacy as recently as 1966!

 

How about Ibn Baz?

 

Well, he is one of the greatest supporters of the suckling of grown men. Which is a very strange theory/loophole in Islam. He basically believes that if there is a man and a woman whom are not related who want to be able to shake hands (what?!) and interact like you would with your mother or sister (i.e. see hair, touch..etc) then it is permissible to get that strange man to suckle on the woman's tit, an act that will magically make him permissible to her (i know!). You can hear him yourself here:

 

 

How about Al Munjid?

 

Well this religious thug believes that hurricane Sandy Is Allah's Punishment for Afghanistan and Iraq. So basically Allah condemning faasiq and faajir westerners by sending these 'signals' to the muslim nations to start believing.

 

Watch him here:

 

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3631.htm

 

 

 

Such is the level of intellect of those whom our lost brothers Khayr and Kenny follow, its so sad

 

I will pray for you labadiinaba

[Allyourbase]

And just so you put a face to the names, here are some of the 'Shiekhs' that Kenny mentioned in his post, and I am using my own discretion in adding Aal Sheekh, Saudi Arabia's Mufti as well:

 

 

 

 

 

When young, educated men like our friends Khayr and Kenny follow these guys whom are ignorant of basic ideas that govern our universe, things you learn in primary 1, and take them as spiritual guides, what hope do we have as peoples?

 

If that is not a form of Arab imperialism, I do not know what is.

[Allyourbase]

I choose not to believe in these guys, and not to believe in their ignorance and hate. I am tired of listening to weird Arabic garbage from my people day in day out, and whenever I voice my objections I am labeled anti Islam and anti dhaqan, which in itself is a laughable claim. I do not mind the form of islam practiced by our parents and grandparents even if I do not believe in it, but it was a spiritual path that allowed people to practice and act how they wanted without fear of persecution by thought or dress police. The only reason we are seeing this alien, ugly form of religion imposed on us today is because we are poor, needy and weak. They use their deep pockets to bring us closer to their sick ideology.

 

And that, I REFUSE.

[DoctorKenney]

There are rulings when it comes to following men based on their religious knowledge. And rulings when it comes to following them based on their secular knowledge. I won't go to Ibn Baaz when I have a question about chemistry or physics, and I actually never even mentioned Ibn Baaz in my post. And regarding his claim that the Earth is stationary and is orbited by the Sun, he was heard and his followers were heard denying he ever believed that, or that his words were taken out of context, or whatever. Men are allowed to make mistakes, and repent from those mistakes, and its obvious that he never believed in this when he died. And the whole "suckling" argument was refuted by Al Munajjid when he proved (through Surah 2:233) that this ruling only applies during the first 2 years of your life. After that, its not possible to breastfeed a grown adult.

 

Right now we're talking about rulings, and Wizard claiming that seeking scientific knowledge is forbidden in Islam, which I stated is false.

 

And in Islam, individual Sheikhs are never taken as an authority (on religious rulings). What's taken as an authority is the CONSENSUS. ie. What they all agree on, and then cross-reference on whether their beliefs are in accordance to the evidences. Each individual person is prone to making mistakes, which is why we look towards what they collectively believe, and hope that their collective beliefs are correct.

[DoctorKenney]

Again, AllYourBase is doing something which I already criticized in the previous page.

 

That you can't find some obscure ruling by an Individual Sheikh and then claim that it is the view of all Muslims. These men are not infallible and even men such as Umar bin Khattab made mistakes and were prone to making errors.

 

What's infallible is the religion of Allah. But men and women are definitely prone to making errors. This is something we all agree on.

 

So the strange statements by someone here and there shouldn't be taken as proof of anything. And their opinions only matter when it comes to religious rulings, and nothing else.

[Miyir]

“Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck.”

 

 

― Thomas Jefferson

[Miyir]

Allyourbase;990881 wrote:

I choose not to believe in these guys, and not to believe in their ignorance and hate. I am tired of listening to weird Arabic garbage from my people day in day out, and whenever I voice my objections I am labeled anti Islam and anti dhaqan, which in itself is a laughable claim. I do not mind the form of islam practiced by our parents and grandparents even if I do not believe in it, but it was a spiritual path that allowed people to practice and act how they wanted without fear of persecution by thought or dress police. The only reason we are seeing this alien, ugly form of religion imposed on us today is because we are poor, needy and weak. They use their deep pockets to bring us closer to their sick ideology.

 

And that, I REFUSE.

 

Theology is ignorance with wings.”

― Sam Harris

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;990905 wrote:

There are rulings when it comes to following men based on their religious knowledge. And rulings when it comes to following them based on their secular knowledge. I won't go to Ibn Baaz when I have a question about chemistry or physics, and I actually never even mentioned Ibn Baaz in my post. And regarding his claim that the Earth is stationary and is orbited by the Sun, he was heard and his followers were heard denying he ever believed that, or that his words were taken out of context, or whatever. Men are allowed to make mistakes, and repent from those mistakes, and its obvious that he never believed in this when he died. And the whole "suckling" argument was refuted by Al Munajjid when he proved (through Surah 2:233) that this ruling only applies during the first 2 years of your life. After that, its not possible to breastfeed a grown adult.

 

Right now we're talking about rulings, and Wizard claiming that seeking scientific knowledge is forbidden in Islam, which I stated is false.

 

And in Islam, individual Sheikhs are never taken as an authority (on religious rulings). What's taken as an authority is the CONSENSUS. ie. What they all agree on, and then cross-reference on whether their beliefs are in accordance to the evidences. Each individual person is prone to making mistakes, which is why we look towards what they collectively believe, and hope that their collective beliefs are correct.

You are missing the larger point. Your whole argument was pertaining to the act of Fatwa Shopping from obscure Sheikhs, and then you went on name your non obscure (Thiqaat) Sheikhs implying that they actually are in any way better than the many random Sheikhs with bizarre Fatwas we always see. So I just went ahead to show you they were in fact even more absurd in some of their claims, to which my point still stands. When I am pointing these guys you think of as religious or perhaps moral guides and stating their strange and sometimes laughable claims and ideas what I am trying to show you is how simple they actually are as men. If you can not trust a man to be aware of simple facts that surround him, I am talking very basic laws of the universe, of science, to make mistakes (hey, we all make them) on such a basic level of thought, how would they in any way be worthy of the high status you bestow upon them?

 

Forget about Bin Baz and just look at your named Sheikhs. One of them is actually against the basic idea of the Earth orbiting the sun, an other is dwelling on the very important matter of the suckling of a grown man (the Sheikh I mentioned in that part of my post was not bin baz in fact, it was one of the super Sheikhs mr. Al Albany) one of your named heroes.

 

We have the childish Al Munjid who believes that there is a god somewhere who was so angry at all of those sinners that he sent them cadaab biblical style in the case of hurricane Sandy. Dont you see how terrible of a statement this is?

 

 

 

DoctorKenney;990906 wrote:

Again, AllYourBase is doing something which I already criticized in the previous page.

 

That you can't find some obscure ruling by an Individual Sheikh and then claim that it is the view of all Muslims

. These men are not infallible and even men such as Umar bin Khattab made mistakes and were prone to making errors.

 

What's infallible is the religion of Allah. But men and women are definitely prone to making errors. This is something we all agree on.

 

So the strange statements by someone here and there shouldn't be taken as proof of anything. And their opinions only matter when it comes to religious rulings, and nothing else.

So there are non obscure ruling and obscure ones now? Dude, you said the same thing and went on and named your untouchable thiqaat culimaa and I just presented their thoughts to you. You can not call that Fatwa shopping from obscure Sheikhs, these guys form the corner stone of the Wahabi Islam and are held very high as evident here by yourself.

[Tallaabo]

DoctorKenney;990788 wrote:

I can find Sheikhs claiming that Homosexuality is permitted in Islam. Doesn't mean it's true.

It's such a basic and weak argument, that it doesn't require any thinking

.

How could you refute the reasoning of those sheikhs who say homosexuality is permitted in Islam without thinking? You are implying that you just follow the herd.

 

DoctorKenney;990788 wrote:

The vast majority of scholars, men such as Ibn Taymiyyah, Qayyim, Abdul Wahhab, and even contemporary Sheikhs like Albaani and Al Uthaymeen and Al Munajjid state otherwise. But according to you, you want to overlook the vast examples stating otherwise and focus on a select few which confirm your bias.

 

Pathetic.

Just because a large number of today's Muslim scholars agree with the honest opinions of some eminent medieval scholars does not mean that what is agrees upon is necessarily correct.

[DoctorKenney]

Yes, Allyourbase, there are such things as "non obscure rulings" and "obscure rulings". The only thing we can do is take the rulings of religious scholars on scientific matters with a grain of salt. They are experts on Fiqh and Aqeedah only, but when it comes to secular knowledge then they are not authorities at all. And if they overstep their authority and make statements without knowledge about science, then it doesn't and shouldn't reflect badly on their rulings on Islam. And that ruling regarding breastfeeding someone in the aim of making them your Mahram, that's a bizarre understanding and is totally incorrect, and it is refuted by the Sahabi Ibn Umar: Al-Muwatta Malik (Volume 2, Hadith 603) Ibn Umar said: “There is no breastfeeding except for the one who is breastfed in infancy; there is no breastfeeding for one who is grown up.”

 

If Uthaymeen or Ibn Baaz take their own understanding of something, and get it completely wrong. Then that's on them. They made a mistake, and I don't care to justify their mistake or appease it. They are not astronomers, and they are experts on Fiqh, that's it. And sometimes these men repent from their mistakes a few years later, and denounce their earlier statements, such as in the example of Ibn Baaz.

 

It doesn't really prove anything. These men were correct at times and incorrect at times. If they were correct, then alhamdulilah. If they're incorrect, then that's on them, and may Allah forgive them for their errors.

[DoctorKenney]

Tallaabo;990927 wrote:

How could you refute the reasoning of those sheikhs who say homosexuality is permitted in Islam without thinking? You are implying that you just follow the herd.

 

 

Just because a large number of today's Muslim scholars agree with the honest opinions of some eminent medieval scholars does not mean that what is agrees upon is necessarily correct.

Tallaabo, this is because there are Hadiths which outright forbid it. The Companions of the Prophet forbade it. And the 4 Madhabs and the thousands of Sheikhs over the last 14 centuries unanimously condemned it. So yes, I do believe it's not permitted.

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;990935 wrote:

Yes, Allyourbase, there are such things as "non obscure rulings" and "obscure rulings". The only thing we can do is take the rulings of religious scholars on scientific matters with a grain of salt. They are experts on Fiqh and Aqeedah only, but when it comes to secular knowledge then they are not authorities at all. And if they overstep their authority and make statements without knowledge about science, then it doesn't and shouldn't reflect badly on their rulings on Islam.

And that ruling regarding breastfeeding someone in the aim of making them your Mahram, that's a bizarre understanding and is totally incorrect

, and it is refuted by the Sahabi Ibn Umar: Al-Muwatta Malik (Volume 2, Hadith 603) Ibn Umar said: “There is no breastfeeding except for the one who is breastfed in infancy; there is no breastfeeding for one who is grown up.”

 

If Uthaymeen or Ibn Baaz take their own understanding of something, and get it completely wrong. Then that's on them. They made a mistake, and I don't care to justify their mistake or appease it. They are not astronomers, and they are experts on Fiqh, that's it. And sometimes these men repent from their mistakes a few years later, and denounce their earlier statements, such as in the example of Ibn Baaz.

 

It doesn't really prove anything. These men were correct at times and incorrect at times. If they were correct, then alhamdulilah. If they're incorrect, then that's on them, and may Allah forgive them for their errors.

Not to dwell on this point but hold on a second..

 

 

Are you telling me that your 'mother', Um Al Mu'miniin Aisha the wife of your Prophet is performing an act that is bizarre? That she is indeed incorrect?

 

I say this because Aisha, wife of the Prophet of Islam did indeed practice this 'bizarre' ritual, whereby if she wanted a man who is a stranger to her to come to her quarters and become 'Mahram' she would order her sisters and their daughters to allow those men to suckle on them.

 

This is from Malik's Muwata':

 

فأخذت بذلك عائشة أم المؤمنين فيمن كانت تحب أن يدخل عليها من الرجال فكانت تأمر أختها أم كلثوم بنت أبي بكر الصديق وبنات أخيها أن يرضعن من أحبت أن يدخل عليها من الرجال وأبى سائر أزواج النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يدخل عليهن بتلك الرضاعة

Its really bizarre and evidently so by the refusal of the prophet's other wives to practice this.

[DoctorKenney]

Allyourbase, this view is indeed incorrect, and the consensus from scholars such as Ibn Umar, Umar ibn Khattab, Ali, Abu Hurayrah, Ibn Masu'd, Ibn Abbas and all the wives of the Prophet (with the exception of Aisha) state clearly that breastfeeding is only valid for the first 2 years of someone's life. You can't breastfeed an adult.

 

So yes, Aisha was incorrect. But for you to search for bizarre rulings and then claim that it is indicative of the whole religion is dishonest. You want to take these rulings, and then claim that Islam is unanimously in support of it. I have news for you: In many matters of Fiqh, there is no single correct answer. And those who make rulings can be wrong from time to time. But this is entirely out of topic, and this thread has devolved into nothing more than you trying to bring up points against the religion, which has nothing to do with the thread topic. All you've managed to do, is prove to us that scholars do get it wrong sometimes. And this is something we all knew about beforehand. Unlike other religions, we don't worship our learned ones, and we're honest enough to admit that these scholars can be wrong sometimes.

 

And if you have any questions regarding Fiqh and Hadith rulings and the like, then visit: http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/

 

It's a forum where you can register and ask questions.

[Allyourbase]

No I did not.

 

You were flaming an other poster here for bringing the ideas of what you called obscure Sheikhs, and started to name your non obscure ones. So I just came along and brought forth the opinions of your own heroes in matters of interest to this discussion of science. I have proved that some of the highest Wahabi scholars that you yourself have named are indeed so simple and dare I say gullible (and ****** in fact) to utter statements such as:

 

- The Earth is stationary and the Sun orbits the Earth.

 

- Hurricanes that we have perfect scientific explanation for today are merely 'messages' from a vengeful 'God'.

 

- The suckling of grown *** men by muslim women somehow makes them Mahram for them!

 

All in an attempt to show you your wrong ways but you refuse to listen. I am attempting to show you that these simpletons are in fact fraud, they do not possess the most basic of human intellect and would actually be laughed at by primary 1 pupils. Yet you are still firm that they make for worthy religious and moral guides.

 

I have even went out of my way to show you how the point that you yourself found bizarre and morally and religiously unaccepted was actually performed by the wife of your prophet. Just so you can see how human those who lived back then are, human in their needs and human in their methods of achieving those needs. She did not mind making up this ritual and give a religious aura just so she can do what she wanted. Now why would the other names that you have mentioned be different when someone so close to your prophet, someone who narrated half of your 'deen' and was one of the major retellers of the prophets adventures was acting with such disregard to the morals you hold so close?

 

It is all fraud my friend, and I really think you are lost, I am just trying to bring you back to the 'fitra' of humans. You should use your mind, your powers of reason, of intellect more often.

 

Join me, brother!!!