Richard Dawking mocked the Muslim World's intellectual inferiority

[Tallaabo]

DoctorKenney;986459 wrote:

There's no reason to think that humans can't materially progress while keeping our morals and values intact. The problem with the West is that they mastered material progress (mathematics, sciences) but their morals and values declined in the last 100 years. We can do both, we can be scientific experts while also being pious Muslims. It's very possible and it's been done many times

 

In fact, I'm going to quote an excerpt from Sayyid Qutb's book "Milestones" on such a topic. Qutb makes a lot of mistakes in some of his writings, and he's not perfect, but I do admire many of his ideas and he was a very eloquent man.

 

I'm gonna underline the noteworthy parts.

 

 

 

A truly civilized society has both. It has material progress but it also has a strong moral basis. It affirms scientific knowledge and it's applications while at the same time submitting to Allah and putting your trust in him. And this type of society is the only

real

civilization, and the only society worthy of ultimate respect. Read what was underlined, as it is very important.

I do agree with you 100% and that was the whole point of posting this thread. Unfortunately the Muslims of today(the vast majority) have got neither intellectual advancement nor moral integrity. We sorely lack both and it gives me no pleasure to read articles like the one I posted in the world media. So instead of dismissing the terrible disparity between the Jews and the Muslims in almost any aspect of civilisation(putting aside our noble religion of Islam), isn't it wiser to acknowledge our deficiencies and at least try to change the situation?

[DoctorKenney]

Exactly, we have the ability to be Masters in our scientific fields while at the same time being God-conscious individuals who have strong moral values and beliefs. We can do both. But Muslims today have neither. We don't manufacture anything in our countries, our universities are not the best in the world, and we Muslims don't even practice our religion (most of us don't even pray)

 

So we're in a lose-lose situation right now. We're not where we should be. But if we looked at the examples of our predecessors, of the early Muslims....you will see that these men combined their scientific expertise with their Islamic piety. Men such as Al Khwarizmi (mathematics) and Ibn Nafees (biology) and ibn Haytham (physics) and others.

 

I acknowledge that theres something wrong, but there is no need to cosign with the likes of Dawkins and his other Kaffir clowns and start repeating his arguments. Dawkins does NOT want what's best for us, and he only mentioned these as a point of criticism against us. He is an open bigot who admitted that he hated Islam but yet he's never read the Quran, not even once. Do not take him seriously. He's an expert on evolutionary biology but he's absolutely clueless on history, politics, physics, and other fields. And theres no need to take him as an authority over anything. He should stick to what he knows and leave the rest to others.

[Allyourbase]

Its quite funny how when convenient some names always appear as Islam's scientific lineage when for the most part they are uttered with much contempt in layperson circles. Al Khawarzmi for instance is thought by many to have been Shia (seen by Ahlul Sunna wal Jamaca as infidels) but is seen here as a 'pious' muslim caalim for the sole purpose of evoking an aura of scientific pedigree to a religion opposed to science. His names appears in Altabari's book as Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwārizmī al-Majousi al-Katarbali, which clearly indicates that his was of Zartosht religious background. Now how would the poster above describe the 'religious piety' of a man we know very little of his personal life? It does not matter! His name sound muslim and he contributed to science. Thats enough to add him to the pre-written, copy-paste riddled text files of 'Defence against Al Shubuhaat' every online islamic warrior keeps in their desktops.

 

 

Ibn il Haythem (Al Hazen) is an other persian scholar many muslim like to parade around as a 'pious' example of the ultimate muslim scientist where the man himself was more into philosophy of Aristotle and others: "[Alhazen] was given a traditional Muslim education, but at an early age he became perplexed by the variety of religious beliefs and sects, because he was convinced of the unity of truth. When he was older, he concluded that truth could be attained only in doctrines whose matter was sensible and whose form was rational. He found such doctrines in the writings of Aristotle and in natural philosophy and mathematics". What is funny is that Ibn Al Haytham was actually disabled by the islamic doctrines of the time which forbode dissection of human tissue, and had to rely on the finding of other scientists in order to advance his understanding.

 

What you will notice is that even with the muslim scientists they parade in these 'preemptive' religious cyber strikes, very little of the lists they will offer would actually claim arab lineage including Al Farabi, Ibn Sina, Al Hazen, Al Khawarzmi, all happen to be of Persian origins. In saying this, we must see that the persians were people of science and empire well before the islamic conquests. I would be very interested in the scientific influence of Saudi Arabia, you know, the Mekkans and Medinans of the world.

 

You have to accept that you have contributed very little to the advancement of the human race as a Soomali, no amount of isku dhedhejis with Arabs or Muslims will change this. Persian had scientists before and after Islam, they're kicking *** (albeit at a smaller scale) to this date.

 

What have you contributed? Where do you stand today as a Somali. We are ****ed beyond recognition and we play little psychological games in dreaming of pasts in which we carried more weight. **** no, if you think that you as a Somali, were more important during the golden age of islamic enlightenment you are in for a big disappointment my friend. Stop living in this weird distorted past and realise we did not amount to much in the past, but we can totally kick *** if we put our minds to it. It probably wont happen in our lifetimes but you never know.

[DoctorKenney]

Okay, nice job going on a tangent that has nothing to do with what we discussed, and nice job overlooking my mention of Ibn Nafees, an ARAB Muslim that I mentioned in my previous post, and this is just someone I named off the top of my head. And whether these men were Persian or Arab or Turkish or something else doesn't change anything. And to deny Ibn Haytham and others, who were undoubtedly devout Muslims, reeks of your hypocrisy and hatred.

 

So for you to ignore the literally thousands of Muslim scientists, teachers, and researchers over the centuries and then insult me and the others on this forum due to our being Somali, is unacceptable. I specifically said that all of us, including Somalis and Arabs, should strive towards scientific expertise.

 

Moderators, can you remove the previous post. As it has nothing to do with the discussion and it deliberately insults Somalis as a race, and Arabs as a race.

[Allyourbase]

Dude, it hurts you doesnt it? The fact that there are other people out there with different viewpoints to your weird, distorted self-induced fairytale of a past. If stating the coldass truth of you as a Somali being at the lowest point of human civilisation at the moment is an insult then you are pretty effing delusional sxb. Iskudhejiskan aad waddid eed name dropping persian scientists as if somehow that is an honour you can claim is utterly bizarre to say the least. And this is in no way a digression on my part. What Dawking had said about muslims is a fact, but your lot went on the defensive attempting to discredit the highest accolade of human advancement in science and humanities. My point is simple: if you are trying to advance the idea of islam being a science-nurturing religion then please tell me how many physicists, philosophers and scientists that came out of Mecca or Madina, the heartland of the Dacwah. Simple right?

 

On the other hand the Persian Empire had always had a claim to scientific and artistic research, they literally invented the wheel. So they would have performed with or without Islam. "As Ibn Khaldun, the fourteenth-century Arab historiographer and sociologist suggests, it is a remarkable fact that with few exceptions, most Muslim scholars in the intellectual sciences were Ajams ("Persians"):

Thus the founders of grammar were Sibawaih and after him, al-Farisi and Az-Zajjaj. All of them were of Persian descent… they invented rules of (Arabic) grammar … great jurists were Persians … only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus the truth of the statement of the prophet becomes apparent, 'If learning were suspended in the highest parts of heaven the Persians would attain it' … The intellectual sciences were also the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them … as was the case with all crafts … This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana [=modern Central Asia], retained their sedentary culture"

[Tallaabo]

DoctorKenney;986543 wrote:

Okay, nice job going on a tangent that has nothing to do with what we discussed, and nice job overlooking my mention of Ibn Nafees, an ARAB Muslim that I mentioned in my previous post, and this is just someone I named off the top of my head. And whether these men were Persian or Arab or Turkish or something else doesn't change anything. And to deny Ibn Haytham and others, who were undoubtedly devout Muslims, reeks of your hypocrisy and hatred.

 

So for you to ignore the literally thousands of Muslim scientists, teachers, and researchers over the centuries and then insult me and the others on this forum due to our being Somali, is unacceptable. I specifically said that all of us, including Somalis and Arabs, should strive towards scientific expertise.

 

Moderators, can you remove the previous post. As it has nothing to do with the discussion and it deliberately insults Somalis as a race, and Arabs as a race.

Apart from his predictable prejudice against Islam, I think what Allyourbase said is just the harsh truth written in bold capital letters.

[thefuturenow]

Tallaabo;986626 wrote:

Apart from his predictable prejudice against Islam, I think what Allyourbase said is just the harsh truth written in bold capital letters.

Ah. If only arguments could be taken at face value so willy nilly. But, alas, reasoned minds do prevail.

 

Allyourbase, fails to mention the respective history of these civilizations. Notice the correlation between scientific advancement and the history of the people in question. No one needs to tell you that Jews are among the oldest people still on this earth. Persia is among the oldest civilizations. Somalia, in my estimation, has yet to become one. The Arabs were roaming and warring tribes before the advent of Islam. Thus, much of their contribution came after Islam. Also, notice that all the Persians he mentions were MUSLIM, thus defeating the initial argument that Muslims did not contribute much to scientific thinking.

 

Perhaps an analogy would help. Consider a first generation college student with illiterate parents and a student whose parents and grandparents were great scholars. Who do you think has the advantage?

 

Most of these arguments are silly. They simply do not take the necessary variables in account. Namely, the simple fact that Allah SW grants different talents to different peoples. See, Black Athletes. They also ignore the particular circumstances that necessitate 'discovery.' A civilization always at war will be incentivized to build weapons. Another will build video-games because they do not face an imminent threat to their existence.

[Allyourbase]

So now you argue that your god dictated the different talents that different ethnic groups got? And you dare label anyones argument silly?

 

So, somewhere in this vast universe, your god decides to give jews unparalleled intellect, gives the Chinese the gift of hard work and grit, and goes on to bestow upon some blacks the gift of, wait for it, athleticism! Do you realise how silly this sounds even by your own standards?

[DoctorKenney]

Please do not feed the troll, Do not feed the troll.

 

He's successfully altered the entire course of this discussion towards debating racial differences and why certain races achieve more than others. This has nothing to do with anything and we have no vested interest in continuing such a frivolous exercise. I see absolutely no point in this at all.

 

Let it go brothers,

[Allyourbase]

I can be many things, at least I am no delusional hypocrite, who attempts to distort both the present and the past knowing fully well you're lying to yourself and other posters here.

[Khayr]

^You are definitely delusional in your disassociation from your religious and ethnic orgins.

[Khayr]

Did you know that that Islam

is and continues to be the only religion whose adherents still stand up for حق.

All others have sold their souls but

their are still bits and pockets of this Ummah that give Islam its strength and glory الله اكبر.

[Allyourbase]

Khayr;986670 wrote:

^You are definitely delusional in your disassociation from your religious and ethnic orgins.

How am I disassociating myself from my ethnic origins? Just by stating the facts of our net contribution to the world?

 

These are facts sxb, and only once you stop reciting names of long dead persian scientists and claiming them as your own do you wake to the fact that you have a lot of catching up to do. Your 'brother's' line of reasoning that an almighty god bestows specific traits along ethnic lines acts only to dismiss the true nature of their achievement which comes through a need to succeed and sheer grit.

[Haatu]

Tallaabo;986525 wrote:

I do agree with you 100% and that was the whole point of posting this thread. Unfortunately the Muslims of today(the vast majority) have got neither intellectual advancement nor moral integrity. We sorely lack both and it gives me no pleasure to read articles like the one I posted in the world media. So instead of dismissing the terrible disparity between the Jews and the Muslims in almost any aspect of civilisation(putting aside our noble religion of Islam), isn't it wiser to acknowledge our deficiencies and at least try to change the situation?

I understand what you mean. After the Muslims stopped following their religion, and falling the Islamic way of life, they then also lost the progress they had and whatever honour they had left.

[Allyourbase]

Apophis;986694 wrote:

The question you ask is a good one but I do not know if you are asking it sincerely or it is merely rhetoric.

 

And do you really know “our net contribution to the world" to speak of it as a matter of fact?

It really is sincere, I would love nothing more than to see my people doing well, despite my different views on religion to yourself. And it IS easy to dismiss anyone based on their views being different to yours, and going on witch hunts requesting for certain posts to be deleted and members to be banned because they stated views that not be compatible with your own (Im looking at you DrK). All of this is very very easy but if you stopped for a second, just a second to answer my question (which is not rhetoric) as to our net contribution to the world, as peoples, you will find an answer that is very embarrassing and depressing. And while some would go and blame it on a lack of religious piety, a laughable conclusion. Some need to state the obvious that it has nothing to do with religion really, or piety, or jews, or Ibliis. It is simply lack of education, drive, ambition, grit..etc. And whilest its easy to reminisce on a period of islamic empire that was dominant for a short period of time, you need to remember that what is Somalia today was still as backwards and still as insignificant back then. Hargeisa was no Baghdad, Muqdisho was no Damascus and Garowe was no Istanbul.