Should Somalia adopt an Islamic Judiciary System?

[Khayr]

Juxa;972613 wrote:

Carafaat last time Islamic law was applied it was used to cut the limps of the poor and those who cannot afford justice. Sxb let's get the basics right. You need proper system in place. Good lawyers, well established prosecution service and judiciary that is above qabyaalad.

 

Tallaabo waa runtaa

Juxa,

 

In all fairness, you are talking about adopting the English law.

Much like the American Justice System (an oxymoron), it is built on equities and

Elitism. This is the same system that you graduated from, that has always favored

The rich, powerful and elite. Why else would a "good Lawyer" make all the difference

Before the law, judge and jury. E.g. Trayvon case in Florida

 

Any muslim having been born and/raised on western education, can not properly comment on such issues because of their overwhelmingly

developed biases. After all, you are a product of your environment.

[Khayr]

Hobbesian_Brute;973499 wrote:

 

I don't oppose the western system because it doesn't condone war on unbelievers.

Bombs over Baghadad.....lol

[Safferz]

Hobbesian_Brute;973464 wrote:

Let's start with the figures, the 150 million Africans was over 1400 years of Islamic rule, its actually a conservative estimate and most probably that figure is much higher, we would never know precisely because unlike the Western slave trade it was not recorded, but historians have fairly good estimate in that range. We have not even mentioned other nationalities and races which are put in the order ~ 50 Million slaves. Look it up if you don't believe me.

 

"...the worst, most inhumane and most diabolical institution of the black African slave trade was initiated, refined, perpetrated and implemented by the Mohammedan Arabs and later aided and abetted by the black converts to Mohammedan Islam."

 

John Alembillah Azumah, Legacy of Arab-Islam in Africa

 

" A comparison of the Islamic slave trade to the American slave trade reveals some interesting contrasts. While two out of every three slaves shipped across the Atlantic were men, the proportions were reversed in the Islamic slave trade. Two women for every man were enslaved by the Muslims.

 

While the mortality rate for slaves being transported across the Atlantic was as high as 10%, the percentage of slaves dying in transit in the Trans Sahara and East African slave trade was between 80 and 90%!

 

While almost all the slaves shipped across the Atlantic were for agricultural work, most of the slaves destined for the Muslim Middle East were for sexual exploitation as concubines, in harems, and for military service.

 

While many children were born to slaves in the Americas, and millions of their descendants are citizens in Brazil and the USA to this day, very few descendants of the slaves that ended up in the Middle East survive.

 

While most slaves who went to the Americas could marry and have families, most of the male slaves destined for the Middle East were castrated, and most of the children born to the women were killed at birth."

 

Why the so called Arab slave trade ? The Atlantic slave trade happened in much shorter time frame, that is undisputed. i think it down to superior technology bigger, faster ships and better organization not kindness or humanity on the part of the Arab slavers.

 

" it also set the socioeconomic and political landscape for later European colonial rule, which continues to have an effect on contemporary Africa and its relationship with the global north ".

 

Undoubtedly, but don't generalize, the vast majority of the continent wasn't touched at all by the Atlantic slave trade, it was concentrated on the West Coast of Africa.

 

Africans, blacks, indigenous people of the continent call them what you want. were not into word games here. Black Muslims are victims even though they participated in the slaving of their fellow blacks during the Atlantic slave trade.

 

"

They also converted Africans into Islam, causing a complete social and financial collapse of the entire African continent apart from wealth attributed to a few regional African kings who became wealthy on the trade and encouraged it

."

 

African history happens to be what I study for a living, and everything I said in response to your claims are facts that historians generally agree upon. Simply pasting text from shoddy scholarship doesn't make what you've said any more historically accurate. Criticize Islamic law if you'd like, but I'd suggest taking a different angle to support your position because this one is intellectually dishonest and inaccurate, and not particularly relevant to the thread.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

What facts are you disputing ? i don't get you, are you saying;

 

1. There was no Arab slave trade that predated, and after dated the Atlantic slave trade by centuries.

 

2. That 150 Million blacks ( or greater number ) from Africa were enslaved by Arabs with explicit religious justification.

 

3. That converted Blacks were the prime slavers of fellow blacks and assisted in both the Atlantic and Arab slave trade.

 

4. That it was the west -- the perpetrators of the Atlantic slave trade who were behind the abolition and putting an end to the institution of slavery and compelled Arab Muslims to cease its activity in Africa.

 

5. That Islamic Law allows for slavery for all time and Muslims would not hesitate for a second to restart once they get into saddle of power.

 

6. Let alone Arabs Muslims apologizing and showing remorse for the horrors inflicted upon millions Africans and other races over centuries of Islamic tyranny and misrule.

 

if you have facts to disprove my assertions, provide them.

[Alpha Blondy]

Hobbesian_Brute;973518 wrote:

 

2. That

150 Million blacks

( or greater number ) from Africa were enslaved by Arabs with explicit religious justification.

 

xigasho please?

 

source por favor?

 

evidence adigoo mudane?

 

you get the point!

[Khayr]

DoctorKenney;973461 wrote:

They would have us believe that Slavery in Islam means the kidnapping of millions of people and forcing them to work in awful conditions where they are abused and also forbidding them from seeking freedom. Islam definitely does not condone such practices and there are numerous sources from Islamic law which outline the treatment of "slaves" in Islam.

 

The posts by Hobbes and AllYourBase paint a misleading picture.

 

In Islam you are even commanded to free your slaves if they request to be freed. And the Prophet said in the Hadith's that your slaves should be treated as your brothers and deal with them on an equal basis.

 

This is a detailed issue and there are volumes of books written on such a subject

They have skillfully moved the debate to slavery. An Ad Misericodiam - an appeal to Emotion.

E.g. Islam allows slavery. So therefor, the implementation of islamic law will make you a slave.

How do you like that? So then, it makes sense. You don't want to be a slave - right?

See how the argument is framed.

 

P.S. The Pentagon has a huge initiative in engaging in cyber wars. These two new nomads appear to be agents of that anti-islam cyber war

Initiative. They are trolls and should be banned.

[DoctorKenney]

I don't understand why we are still having this discussion? All this is, is running around the same points again and again.

 

As I said before, these people in this Thread would have us believe that "Islamic Slavery" is similar to the barbaric slavery practiced in the United States for 400 years. It is NOTHING like that.

 

Muslims are even forbidden to beat their slaves:

 

I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whoever slaps his slave or beats him, his expiation is to manumit him.” Narrated by Muslim (1657).

 

We are forbidden to disrespect them, overburden them, make their lives uncomfortable, and if the slaves seek freedom, we must grant it to them. This is nothing at ALL like the slavery we're used to seeing on movies like Django and others.

 

Furthermore, Islam forbids Muslims from taking on new slaves, unless the Muslims were on the battlefield and were fighting the enemy....and as a result of the Battle the Muslims took prisoners of war, then it would be permitted to keep them as slaves. Virtually every country in the world keeps war-prisoners, including the Western nations and Islam affirms that as well.

 

Nowadays, in most Western nations...war prisoners are captured and then have to endure humiliating conditions in prison for indefinite periods of time. In Islam--especially during the time of the Prophet pbuh--war prisoners are captured on the battlefield and then live with their Masters in a setting of good treatment and safety, and are known as their "slaves".

 

This HobbesianBrute would have us believe that Islam is a religion that is strictly dedicated to Theology and the private relationship between man and God. Islam is a complete system of life, and it addresses issues within ALL topics of life.

 

In fact, Islam is a system which guaranteed the gradual abolishment of slavery within it's society. If it was obligatory in Islam to free your slaves, and if the expiation for many sins was to free a slave, then it would set about a chain of events which would lead to slavery's gradual abolishment. People would have us forget that Islam is a religion for ALL time, not just the 21st century. And it addresses issues which impact people for ALL time. So of course slavery was permitted under very narrow definitions, and these Islamophobic clowns are trying to conjure up images of the barbaric American-Style slavery which existed for 400 years, whereas Islam explicitly forbids this practice.

 

And as for some Arab slave traders participating in the slave trade, I could easily dismiss it as these men were operating outside of Islam and were committing a major sin by enslaving these people.

 

The Hadiths even say that anyone who captures a free man and sells him, will be disgraced on the Day of Judgement. And that it is a major sin in Islam. (Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 2227) So this barbaric practice of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade was explicily forbidden in Islam. It is HARAM, it has nothing to do with Islam. And any of these insistences by these anti-Islamic clowns can't prove otherwise.

 

There's no use in discussing the truth with someone who doesn't want to listen to it

[DoctorKenney]

Khayr;973525 wrote:

They have skillfully moved the debate to slavery. An Ad Misericodiam - an appeal to Emotion.

E.g. Islam allows slavery. So therefor, the implementation of islamic law will make you a slave.

How do you like that? So then, it makes sense. You don't want to be a slave - right?

See how the argument is framed.

 

P.S. The Pentagon has a huge initiative in engaging in cyber wars. These two new nomads appear to be agents of that anti-islam cyber war

Initiative. They are trolls and should be banned.

They definitely should be. There are massive cyber wars being waged against Islam on forums, chatrooms as well as blogs. But Alhamdulilah, the Muslims have provided their responses and completely disproved all of their arguments against Islam.

 

BUT....and this is a major problem, our responses against their criticisms of Islam aren't organized in one, comprehensive site. And we should do that, as easy reference. And to prevent gullible, weak Muslims from being deceived by these ridiculous arguments

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

we should because it worked really well so far lol

[Alpha Blondy]

Naxar Nugaaleed;973534 wrote:

we should because it worked really well so far lol

:D

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;973528 wrote:

 

As I said before, these people in this Thread would have us believe that "Islamic Slavery" is similar to the barbaric slavery practiced in the United States for 400 years. It is NOTHING like that.

Taking a fellow human being's right to a free life is a despicable practice at any time and in any place. Period. Spare me the nonsense of not being allowed to beat the slaves, the slaves you ship from their homes in North Africa, Persia, Spain, Khurasan and elsewhere to the Arabian deserts to be used for all manner of things the least of which is sex objects, and you dare talk about dignity?

 

 

I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whoever slaps his slave or beats him, his expiation is to manumit him.” Narrated by Muslim (1657)

.

You mean the same Messenger of Allaah who discouraged his wife from manumitting her own slave? See the Hadith above that you conveniently ignored.

We are forbidden to disrespect them, overburden them, make their lives uncomfortable, and if the slaves seek freedom,

we must grant it to them.

This is nothing at ALL like the slavery we're used to seeing on movies like

Django

and others.

You are 'forbidden' to make their lives uncomfortable? You mean beyond using them as SLAVES?!

 

And you're calling us trolls?

 

Absolute garbage. If getting manumitted is as easy as you describe (which is a lie, we both know that) then why was it that the slaves did not benefit from this clause? Was it in the small print?

 

Furthermore, Islam forbids Muslims from taking on new slaves, unless the Muslims were on the battlefield and were fighting the enemy....and as a result of the Battle the Muslims took prisoners of war, then it would be permitted to keep them as slaves. Virtually every country in the world keeps war-prisoners, including the Western nations and Islam affirms that as well.

Capturing war criminals for the purpose putting them on trials or exchanging them for some of your own is one thing. Capturing 30,000 virgin maidens to be enslaved and used as harem is an altogether different matter:

 

In his four-year campaign in Spain (711-15), Musa bin Nusair had captured 30,000 virgins from the families of Gothic nobility alone. This excludes the enslaved women from other backgrounds and of course, the children.

Ibn Al Athir 4/295

 

Now explain to me what combat experience those 30,000 virgins have had, or how they contributed to the war efforts of the infidel states? Please note that they were fell victims in what was clearly arab conquests of Spain. They were captured in their own homes, so how are you going to justify this? Were they enemy combatants? Did they declare war on the Muslim Ummah?

 

They were simply attacked by barbaric forces and they had to endure a lifetime of slavery through absolutely no fault of their own.

 

 

 

In fact, Islam is a system which guaranteed the gradual abolishment of slavery within it's society. If it was obligatory in Islam to free your slaves, and if the expiation for many sins was to free a slave, then it would set about a chain of events which would lead to slavery's gradual abolishment. People would have us forget that Islam is a religion for ALL time, not just the 21st century. And it addresses issues which impact people for ALL time. So of course slavery was permitted under

very narrow

definitions, and these Islamophobic clowns are trying to conjure up images of the barbaric American-Style slavery which existed for 400 years, whereas Islam explicitly forbids this practice.

Bullshit. Evidenced by the fact that the percentage of slaves in society surged during the Baghdad Caliphate to reach half of the total population in certain regions!

 

You can never argue that Islam had an objective of eradicating slavery, it legitimized its practice to the point that no muslim, even in this 21st century dares to call slavery a relic from a shameful past. It is still a relevant part of islam, and still practiced in parts of the muslim world.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

Since we can't get the Muslims here to give an honest rebuttal, and all they can muster is some lame hadeeths advocating for the kind treatment of slaves, while saying nothing about the evil practice of humans owning humans beings as property in the first place, we can close this chapter and move on to other unsavory parts of their so called Islamic justice system. Here is sharia on women;

 

sharia is extremely anti woman, one can safely say Islam is the world's most misogynistic religion ever, past or present.

 

sharia orders women to cover themselves up so as not to inflame the passions of men, while it does it not order men to control their urges. every part of her body is labeled as Awrah -- sexual organ.

 

in sharia, a man can divorce his by repeating the The Talaaq word three times, of course no such luxury is afforded to women.

 

in sharia, a woman claiming rape must be witnessed by four men otherwise it is not permissible in court.

 

Sharia forbids women from pursuing livelihoods and gaining economic freedom and basically relegates them to chattel status whose sole purpose is produce children, cook food and provide sexual services to her husband.

 

In sharia a husband can call his wife to bed anytime he likes and the angels will curse her if she declines till morning.

 

Women are the Majority of hell fire according to Islam.

 

Child bride marriages are legal under Sharia, in fact Muhammad consummated marriage to a 9 yr old girl and married her at 6 yrs ( yes ). how awful ? and they consider this man the supreme guide of conduct.

 

Islam denies women education, that is why devout Muslims like the Taliban poison schoolgirls, or kill them just like they attempted with Malala Yusuf.

 

Sharia condones honor killings.

 

in sharia, a woman inherits half what a man inherits.

 

in sharia, a man has the right to have up to 4 wives and none of them have a right to divorce him -- even if he is polygamous.

 

in sharia, its clear that the dowry is given in exchange for the woman's sexual organs.

 

in sharia, a man is allowed to have sex with slave women and women captured in battle, and if the enslaved woman is married her marriage is annulled.

 

in sharia, the testimony of a woman in court is half the value of a man.

 

in sharia, a woman loses custody if she remarries.

 

in sharia, a husband has a right to physically assault his wife.

 

in sharia, only the man can initiate divorce.

 

in sharia, there is no community property between husband and wife and the husband's property does not automatically go to the wife after his death.

 

in sharia, a rapist may only be required to pay the bride-money (dowry) without marrying the rape victim.

 

in sharia, a Muslim man is forgiven if he kills his wife at the time he caught her in the act of adultery.

 

in sharia, a woman can not attain position of leadership in whatever form over men.

 

in sharia, a woman has to be accompanied by a male relative ( Maxram ) whenever she goes outside.

 

in sharia, women are stoned to death if they get pregnant out of wedlock, men because their don't get preganant can escape. Amina lawal of nigeria is case in point.

Al shabaab stoned to death an unmarried 13 yr girl who was raped by Arab jihadis in Somalia, she arrested and brought before a kangaroo sharia court and stoned to death.

" Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was killed on Monday, 27 October, by a group of 50 men who stoned her to death in a stadium in the southern port of Kismayu, in front of around 1,000 spectators."

 

This is just the tip of the iceberg regarding the evils of sharia which Muslims everywhere support overwhelmingly and want to implement.

 

 

^ A poor Iranian woman facing stoning as per sharia punishment for adultery. This is what Muslims want to introduce in the 21st century

[Khayr]

Blah, blah, blah.

More verbal diarrhea from you.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

Khayr;973545 wrote:

Blah, blah, blah.

More verbal diarrhea from you.

are you tongue tied ?

[uchi]

Did you copy & paste from here Hobb?

 

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/nonie-darwish/sharia-for-dummies/