Breaking news: Egypt Coup d'état, Morsy overthrown.

[DoctorKenney]

Yes Hobbes, I understand that the KSA's statements on those who don't pray isn't the correct Islamic approach in dealing with them. But either way, I myself have been to Saudi Arabia, and so have many of my friends and family members.....and never have I been harassed or questioned on whether I prayed or not. This is just some ridiculous argument that might possibly work on someone who's never been to Saudi Arabia, but don't insult my intelligence.

 

Furthermore, the Prophet said in this Hadith, and it's well-known that he made this point as an emphasis as to how important the Prayer was, and these weren't orders to start burning those who didn't show up for the Prayer. They weren't to be taken literally. Anyone with SLIGHT common sense could understand this, and he even said "I was thinking of", and this didn't constitute a concrete order. Knowing whether someone skipped the prayer or not is impossible, as this constitutes spying, and spying is explicitly forbidden in Islam. There was the well-known story of Umar bin Khattab--when he was Caliph--doing his nightly patrols. And he spied on one of his neighbours, and noticed that he was drinking alcohol in his home, something forbidden in Islam. Umar didn't apply the Hudud punishment here, as this is the man's own house, and to do so would be to candidly admit spying, something totally forbidden in the religion.

 

To make claims on Islam and then point to modern-day examples, as if this is going to convince me, is ridiculous and idiotic. Your knowledge of Islam is very little, you can't even make consistent arguments and you sound very childish. Before you start preaching, at least gain some knowledge on what you're preaching first. Worthy note of advice

[Hobbesian_Brute]

DoctorKenney;974348 wrote:

Yes Hobbes, I understand that the KSA's statements on those who don't pray isn't the correct Islamic approach in dealing with them.

There is no one correct way, the different madhabs and sheikhs have slightly differing opinions on this, ranging from admonishing those who don't attend the jamaaca prayers to outright killing. their daliil is the hadeeth which says, between us and kufr is the salah. As a general rule, in islam the most extreme positions always prevail over accommodating ones. recent events bear out these clearly.

 

DoctorKenney;974348 wrote:

But either way, I myself have been to Saudi Arabia, and so have many of my friends and family members.....and never have I been harassed or questioned on whether I prayed or not. This is just some ridiculous argument that might possibly work on someone who's never been to Saudi Arabia, but don't insult my intelligence.

Back to your lies Doctor. one can spend three nights in a cell in ksa if caught not praying during prayer times, the mutawa knock on shops and house doors accompanied by policeman and demand why people are not in the mosque at prayer times. Nowadays they have vans that patrol and take people to the mosques, with most - if not all of the people - not in Wudu. This enforcing of Salah on the people has led to a comical saying: "Salatu 's-su'udiyyah, la wudu wa la niyyah!"

 

DoctorKenney;974348 wrote:

Furthermore, the Prophet said in this Hadith, and it's well-known that he made this point as an emphasis as to how important the Prayer was, and these weren't orders to start burning those who didn't show up for the Prayer. They weren't to be taken literally. Anyone with SLIGHT common sense could understand this, and he even said "I was thinking of", and this didn't constitute a concrete order. Knowing whether someone skipped the prayer or not is impossible, as this constitutes spying, and spying is explicitly forbidden in Islam.

of course it was not literal and he didn't go and burn down the house duh, but the implication was clear, muslims should not miss salah with jamaacah, this is clear from the prophet's grave threat. this where it opens the door to coercion. muslims strive to emulate the prophet in every detail so they would not to hesitiate to harass those who miss prayers. just look at muslims households, prayers are enforced with threats and shaming.

[Allyourbase]

[kickz]

^Thats nonsense, if Obamya backed Brotherhood then the Army would've had their money cut off. Israel backs Sisi and that's the only voice that matters.

Israel lobbying U.S., EU to support Egypt’s military

The Israeli government is pressing its efforts to convince the United States and the European Union to support the military-backed government in Egypt.

 

The New York Times reported on Aug. 18 that Israeli ambassadors in Washington and the European capitals will lobby foreign ministers, and that Israeli leaders will urge diplomats to back the Israeli position that the Egyptian military is the best solution to Cairo’s disarray.

 

The newspaper cited an unnamed “senior Israeli official involved in the effort.”

 

“At this point it’s army or anarchy,” the official told the Times.

 

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has ordered government officials to refrain from publicly discussing the situation in Egypt.

 

Israel reportedly has been lobbying American officials hard to sustain the annual $1.5 billion in U.S. aid to Egypt. President Barack Obama has threatened to withhold the aid over a violent government crackdown on demonstrations in support of the ousted president, Mohammed Morsi, that has resulted in more than 800 deaths since last week.

[Guzel]

There is no difference between secularists and Islamists in Egypt, both sides believe in oppressing people through fear by using violence and manipulating religion to divide and rule. Morsy and Mubarak share the same political ideology, they do not believe in civilian rule. I wish Morsy was removed by the people without the interference of the army.

[Haatu]

Khayr;974162 wrote:

In actuality, the "blind and deaf islam" aka prayer islam, is what a lot of secular ulama preach from the minbar too.

Heck, Sisi has fatwas telling him that all ikhawanis are kuffar and can be killed.

Heh! Don't you know dictators can nowadays purchase a juicy fatwa from a willing pseudo-sheikh?

[Haatu]

Hobbesian_Brute;974658 wrote:

As a general rule, in islam the most extreme positions always prevail over accommodating ones. recent events bear out these clearly.

The ignorance! Do you know that this is just one opinion of the scholars when it comes to differences of opinion in fiqh? Did you know that another opinion is that the Muslim should follow the easier of the options due to Allah's saying "Allah wants ease for you, not hardship"? (or something along those lines, I can't remember where exactly the ayah is). Did yo also know that another opinion is that if the person is knowledgeable enough he/she should read the proofs presented and follow the one he feels to be the truth?

[Hobbesian_Brute]

Haatu;975111 wrote:

The ignorance! Do you know that this is just

one

opinion of the scholars when it comes to differences of opinion in fiqh?

I'm not following you here, explain bal.

 

Haatu;975111 wrote:

Did you know that another opinion is that the Muslim should follow the easier of the options due to Allah's saying "Allah wants ease for you, not hardship"? (or something along those lines, I can't remember where exactly the ayah is). Did you also know that another opinion is that if the person is knowledgeable enough he/she should read the proofs presented and follow the one he feels to be the truth?

Haatu, why have we not seen muslims acting on these wonderful saying then ?? show us even one instance, its easy to point to few anodyne texts in islam and say look this is what the religion orders, but real world application and history disproves this.

[DoctorKenney]

Haatu;975111 wrote:

The ignorance! Do you know that this is just

one

opinion of the scholars when it comes to differences of opinion in fiqh? Did you know that another opinion is that the Muslim should follow the easier of the options due to Allah's saying "Allah wants ease for you, not hardship"? (or something along those lines, I can't remember where exactly the ayah is). Did yo also know that another opinion is that if the person is knowledgeable enough he/she should read the proofs presented and follow the one he feels to be the truth?

Saaxib, don't waste time with him. He made a statement on Islam with zero knowledge, and he tried to pass it off as facts.

 

The Prophet said "Dispel the hudud (punishments) with doubt", and in Islamic Shariah the Judge is always obliged to take a lenient position and forgive the offenders.

 

Hobbes opinions on Islam hold no weight, and shouldn't be addressed, since they're not even based on facts. Don't give him any legitimacy by responding to him at all. Save yourself the trouble. If he comes with good arguments, I'd be happy to read them

[Hobbesian_Brute]

leave the rhetorical flourish and rebut my reply to you doctor. i have heavy stuff coming to shake your world.

[Haatu]

Hobbesian_Brute;975177 wrote:

I'm not following you here, explain bal.

 

 

 

Haatu, why have we not seen muslims acting on these wonderful saying then ?? show us even one instance, its easy to point to few anodyne texts in islam and say look this is what the religion orders, but real world application and history disproves this.

Let me explain first. In Islam, the scholars are united on the core of the religion, the creed.There's no difference when it comes to tawhiid, pillars of Islam, pillars of eemaan and so on. However, when it comes to fiqh, there is differences of opinion due to different interpretations of the sources (Qur'an and Sunnah). Examples are how many takbiirs in the funeral prayer, should one cross his hands on his chest after rising from ruku' etc. The scholars differ on many of these issues due to us being humans and understanding things differently. Now this doesn't necessarily mean one opinion is right and the others are wrong, no. It could be the case that the prophet did all of them from time to time or he did one regularly and did the other every now and then. Or it could just be one opinion is wrong and the other is right. However, no one is in a position (unless the other opinion rests on shaky proofs i.e. weak hadeeths) to say with absolute certainty this is right and this is wrong.

 

So the issue arises, what opinion does the lay man who lacks fiqh knowledge follow? Even on this the scholars differ. Some say he follows the easiest option, some say he follows the hardest option, some say he follows the opinion of his scholar and so on and so forth.

 

As for this:

Haatu, why have we not seen muslims acting on these wonderful saying then ?? show us even one instance, its easy to point to few anodyne texts in islam and say look this is what the religion orders, but real world application and history disproves this.

Firstly we are talking about rules, not what the majority does. In Islam a person is not supposed to blindly follow the majority but they should follow the truth. Secondly, it is my belief that if were Muslims were to learn their religion and follow its principles properly, then all the problems we face today would not be there.