Breaking news: Egypt Coup d'état, Morsy overthrown.

[Carafaat]

Hobbesian_Brute;971108 wrote:

islam is facing a foe it hasn't faced in its 1400 yrs of existence and that is

MODERNITY

. its ill equipped to deal with the modern world; no work ethic, no independent thought is encouraged but inflexible conformity to dogmas. the rest of the world is rapidly pulling away and muslim societies are falling ever more into decay and stagnation, they are at the bottom of the heap. Everywhere despised, mistrusted and looked down upon. all they are reduced to is boasting of medieval glories to massage their bruised egos. they don't understand that the arrow of time always moves forward and to succeed you must change with the times.

First, you seem to equate Islam with dictatorial regimes (the same regime that you seem to support, like in Egypt). Second, Islam is growing rapidly, according to many sources even the fastest growing religion. So your statement here is incorrect. It seems rather a bit of wishfull thinking.

 

The question is why? Why do wish or hope to change the heart of believers?

[MoonLight1]

Hobbesian_Brute;971108 wrote:

islam is facing a foe it hasn't faced in its 1400 yrs of existence and that is

MODERNITY

. its ill equipped to deal with the modern world; no work ethic, no independent thought is encouraged but inflexible conformity to dogmas. the rest of the world is rapidly pulling away and muslim societies are falling ever more into decay and stagnation, they are at the bottom of the heap. Everywhere despised, mistrusted and looked down upon. all they are reduced to is boasting of medieval glories to massage their bruised egos. they don't understand that the arrow of time always moves forward and to succeed you must change with the times.

you seem to be a man filled with hatred and anger towards this religion but i will only say to you and your likes "...they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say: "Perish in your rage. Certainly, Allah knows what is in the hearts"[3:119]

your telling us Islam is in decline while everyone knows Islam is in the rise and in less than 30 years will overtake Christianity as the worlds first religion,, in other words it's a world wide established fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and if you need evidence here is some.

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-islamification-of-britain-record-numbers-embrace-muslim-faith-2175178.html

 

So Mr Brute you are fighting a hopeless battle, yes muslims are down and wounded, but not out yet, since Muslims live in the most strategic places in the world with its natural resources and important world crossing passages they have been the most oppressed and harassed by the imperial powers helped my their cloned dictators making the muslim world the most western military concentrated area, but the late chain of events and the Arab spring are changing the landscape and slowly but surely people are realising Islam is the salvation, there are setbacks and upheavals but hey tell me a revolution which did not face upheavals.

[Allyourbase]

Where today has the flower of Islam blossomed into a modern society that both adheres to strict fundamental laws of Islam and yet functions as an example of this brave 'shin sekai' new world? Tell me about the technological dominance of Afghanistan? The military supremacy of Saudi Arabia? The thought factory that is the Islamic Republic of Mauritania?

 

I would love to hear about all that!

 

but the late chain of events and the Arab spring are changing the landscape and slowly but surely people are realising

Islam is the salvation

Funnily enough the islamists in Egypt won the elections carrying banners that said just that, with chants of islam is the salvation but look what happened to them! They could not deliver on their promise. Where you see a change in the landscape for islamists I point you to this current chain of events in this very thread my friend!

 

What happened to the islamists of Egypt? Where is the dear leader, Mohamed Mursi Al Ayaat?

 

Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path].

[MoonLight1]

Allyourbase;971153 wrote:

Where today has the flower of Islam blossomed into a modern society that both adheres to strict fundamental laws of Islam and yet functions as an example of this brave 'shin sekai' new world? Tell me about the technological dominance of Afghanistan? The military supremacy of Saudi Arabia? The thought factory that is the Islamic Republic of Mauritania?

 

I would love to hear about all that!

 

 

 

Funnily enough the islamists in Egypt won the elections carrying banners that said just that, with chants of

islam is the salvation

but look what happened to them! They could not deliver on their promise. Where you see a change in the landscape

for

islamists I point you to this current chain of events in this very thread my friend!

 

What happened to the islamists of Egypt? Where is the dear leader, Mohamed Mursi Al Ayaat?

 

Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path].

 

Yes your right, the current Muslim world is not an example of technological advance and modernity thanks to the dictators you and the west support, those dictators who's sole goal was to fill their pockets and pass the heir to their sons after their demise, those dictators promised us modernity if we sideline Islam, but we had an imitating modernity which made us leave our religion and not become "moderns", Muslim states which sucessfuly implemented real modernity & technological advances without side-lining Islam are Malaysia, and Turkey which are Today's world power houses. The notion of "Islam is the salvation" is not an empty slogan, it has been tested, practised and proven in the past, muslims dominated the world for many centuries in terms of technological advance and modernity, when Cordoba, Damascus and Baghdad had street lamps and libraries Paris and London were plunged into darkness and plagues, So my point is, Islam has been proven to be adaptable to modernity and encourages technological advance but with its values and boundaries, today's extremism does not reflect on real Islam which has been hijacked by a group of reactionary groups.

Allyourbase;971153 wrote:

What happened to the islamists of Egypt? Where is the dear leader, Mohamed Mursi Al Ayaat?

Are you serious?

 

first of all Morsy never had the time and the authority to implement his policies, as one western commentator said "he was a president who had power, but no authority", this is true, the entire Egyptian organs of governing institutions such as the High court, the lower court, the army, the police ranks, the intelligence service, the Cairo stock exchange, even the Egyptian state tv &radio were out of his authority and could not touch them to reform since they were in the hands of Mubarakites and Seculars, in simpler terms, this guy was a toothless president who could not even change governors without the army and media harassments, plus, the daily barrages of protests he endured from these seculars and the negative effects this had on the Egyptian economy and tourism made many simple people who depended on these trades turn against and denounce him.

 

with all these negative impacts on his presidency let me ask you a question, tell me a government in this world which achieved miracles in 360 days? bury in mind Morsy inherited a 60 years old economical mess, infrastructure decline and a patient-less young generation.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

your not even a real Muslim but what V.S Naipaul referred to as " converted peoples ". your too uppity for a non Arab Muslim, pump your brakes.

 

Islam can be the fastest growing and largest population, but that doesn't equal progress, strength or prosperity, its overpopulation as consequence of their backwardness and ignorance of contraception. if tiny israel of 7 million keeps at bay close to half a billion arabs, that shows numerical superiority amounts to nothing.

 

Islam is salvation, death is life, war is peace, poverty is prosperity; what is wrong with these lines ?? :cool:

[Hobbesian_Brute]

Sorry i could not respond to you as i have the same issue as you.

 

You have to understand apologists have 2 classic excuses for islamic failure:

 

1. blame western conspiracies for their shortcomings and incompetence.

 

2. claim islamists didn't have enough time at the helm.

 

you see AS didn't have enough time to enact the islamic utopia envisioned by muslims because infidels plotted their downfall and jewish controlled media besmirched their good name.

 

These are not rational or serious people.

[Allyourbase]

MoonLight1;971166 wrote:

Yes your right, the current Muslim world is not an example of technological advance and modernity thanks to the dictators you and the west support, those dictators who's sole goal was to fill their pockets and pass the heir to their sons after their demise, those dictators promised us modernity if we sideline Islam, but we had an imitating modernity which made us leave our religion and not become "moderns", Muslim states which sucessfuly implemented real modernity & technological advances without side-lining Islam are Malaysia, and Turkey which are Today's world power houses. The notion of

"Islam is the salvation"

is not an empty slogan, it has been tested, practised and proven in the past, muslims dominated the world for many centuries in terms of technological advance and modernity, when Cordoba, Damascus and Baghdad had street lamps and libraries Paris and London were plunged into darkness and plagues, So my point is, Islam has been proven to be adaptable to modernity and encourages technological advance but with its values and boundaries, today's extremism does not reflect on real Islam which has been hijacked by a group of reactionary groups.

 

My friend you are confused. What your so called 'dictators' promised you was a strict implementation of Islamic law (Sharia) in the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, Islamic Republic of Mauritania and Saudi Arabia. Now tell me where that got them? Its easy for you to blame the dictators for your faults, but they are products of their environments, are they not? Was Mullah Omar a dictator? I say this because he came to power in almost the same manner that the first Caliph Abu Baker came to power, so please tell me what makes him a dictator?

 

Now are you sure you want to cite Malaysia and Turkey as Islamic countries? Because I am then inclined to ask you why then do they not abide by full Sharia Laws? My question in the post that you've quoted was Where today has the flower of Islam blossomed into a modern society that both adheres to strict fundamental laws of Islam and yet functions as an example of this brave 'shin sekai' new world?

 

So I am afraid neither Malaysia nor Turkey fit this description, as they are both examples of two secular countries with predominantly muslim populations, this is especially true in Turkey the creation of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (father of Turks) with its constitution that asserts that Turkey is a secular and democratic, republic.

 

So tell me, please: Where today has the flower of Islam blossomed into a modern society that both adheres to strict fundamental laws of Islam and yet functions as an example of this brave 'modern' new world?

 

 

first of all Morsy never had the time and the authority to implement his policies, as one western commentator said

"he was a president who had power, but no authority", this is true, the entire Egyptian organs of governing institutions such as the High court, the lower court, the army, the police ranks, the intelligence service, the Cairo stock exchange, even the Egyptian state tv &radio were out of his authority and could not touch them to reform since they were in the hands of Mubarakites and Seculars, in simpler terms,

this guy was a toothless president

who could not even change governors without the army and media harassments, plus, the daily barrages of protests he endured from these seculars and the negative effects this had on the Egyptian economy and tourism made many simple people who depended on these trades turn against and denounce him.

 

with all these negative impacts on his presidency let me ask you a question, tell me a government in this world which achieved miracles in 360 days? bury in mind Morsy inherited a 60 years old economical mess, infrastructure decline and a patient-less young generation.

Are YOU serious?

 

We are talking about a man who won the country's first free election (all be it with emotional slogans ala islam is the answer, but I digress), supported by the most organised and prepared political/religious party in the country and with Qatar, a leading regional state taking a personal interest in having him see his presidential term through. He was just part of a certain Muslim Brotherhood, a leading islamist group that fought so hard to rule and once they got there realised (to their despair) that perhaps Islam was never the answer. They worked the constitution in Morsi's infamous constitutional declaration giving Mursi pretty much all the power he needs, they had majorities in both houses of the Egyptian Parliament, they had gotten rid of the only serious problem they had faced in the heads of the Egyptian Military (I am talking about the head of the army Field Marshal Tantawi and his right hand man Annan) and they had their own media instruments to use. So spare me the 'toothless president' narrative because that is one thing Mursi was not.

 

It was a simple case of the islamists failing to deliver on their promise and the people of Egypt responding to that.

 

Your last question is surely rhetorical, as you are practically asking me to find an other country in exact social and historical position Egypt found her self in post Mubarak, and then to give you not a success but a 'miracle' that its president performed

 

Dude, you cant be serious!

 

[MoonLight1]

Hobbesian_Brute;971198 wrote:

your not even a real Muslim but what V.S Naipaul referred to as "

converted peoples

". your too uppity for a non Arab Muslim, pump your brakes.

 

Islam can be the fastest growing and largest population, but that doesn't equal progress, strength or prosperity, its overpopulation as consequence of their backwardness and ignorance of contraception. if tiny israel of 7 million keeps at bay close to half a billion arabs, that shows numerical superiority amounts to nothing.

 

Islam is salvation, death is life, war is peace, poverty is prosperity; what is wrong with these lines ?? :cool:

I like when first year uni kids come with their book one confused atheism philosophy to SOL thinking they have something new and tangible story to tell us. I like the way you are backtracking from the notion of "Islam is in decline" to "yeah its not in decline" population wise at least, not realising the next world wars will be about three things, water, energy, and population. look at china, it's becoming "the" world's first superpower" thanks to its economic growth and population power. while the west is dying of old age, muslims are experiencing a young population explosion which will be a plus for future developments.

wakeup guys, it's not only simple Indian peasants, or humble African tribal people converting, but well educated blue eyed westerns who saw the truth and are a big asset for this Ummah.

 

Hobbesian_Brute;971198 wrote:

if tiny israel of 7 million keeps at bay close to half a billion arabs, that shows numerical superiority amounts to nothing.

oh yeah, give us a break man, don't insult our intelligence, without US and Nato's logistical, financial, and moral support, Israel wouldn't last a week, just read what the western intellectuals wrote about the 2006 war with Hezbollah and I believe your too young or too naive to read about the 1973 arab war, I would advice you to read Kissinger's biography where you'll learn who won the war for Israel.

[Allyourbase]

it has been tested, practised and proven in the past, muslims dominated the world for many centuries in terms of technological advance and modernity, when Cordoba, Damascus and Baghdad had street lamps and libraries Paris and London were plunged into darkness and plagues

This really bothers me, this point that almost everyone you talk to about the fallacies of medieval thought comes back with is some past glory that a certain historical muslim nation had achieved. This shows more than anything a case of identity crises as the modern times seem bare of anything worth bragging about so you would sustain a semblance of self worth through bragging about a period of history where arabs expanded their empire to Cordoba? Why don't you tell me what the Somalis were doing at that time? Technologically, artistically, scientifically? You were still in the same place that you occupy today. What is it to you if Baghdad was a bustling corner of human thought?

 

And if you still want to brag about those long gone days, would you still bring this up to a Han Chinese or an Italian? They would simply bring up the han dynasty that had ruled a united China for about 400 years, and a Roman Empire that last several hundred years, then what?

 

Anyways, I digress.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

MoonLight1;971214 wrote:

I like when first year uni kids come with their book one confused atheism philosophy to SOL

thinking they have something new and tangible story to tell us.

corrections here, i finished uni ages ago, not an atheist, Naipaul is novelist not philosopher.

 

MoonLight1;971214 wrote:

I like the way you are

backtracking

from the notion of "Islam is in decline" to "yeah its not in decline" population wise at least, not realising the next world wars will be about three things, water, energy, and

population.

look at china, it's becoming "the" world's first superpower" thanks to its economic growth and

population power

. while the west is dying of old age, muslims are experiencing a young population explosion which will be a plus for future developments.

Muslims are not china, they don't have the industry, skills and work ethic. one billion beggars will still be one billion beggars.:cool:

 

MoonLight1;971214 wrote:

wakeup guys, it's not only simple Indian peasants, or humble African tribal people converting,

but well educated blue eyed westerns

who saw the truth and are a big asset for this Ummah.

:eek: :eek: :eek:, no comment here.

 

 

MoonLight1;971214 wrote:

oh yeah, give us a break man, don't insult our intelligence, without US and Nato's logistical, financial, and moral support, Israel wouldn't last a week, just read what the western intellectuals wrote about the 2006 war with Hezbollah and I believe your too young or too naive to read about the 1973 arab war, I would advice you to read Kissinger's biography where you'll learn

who won the war for Israel

.

israel and nato have no connection. nice job sidetracking the debate.

[Gar_maqaate]

^^ It is not much of a mystery to see your opinions and criticism of Islam originate from. It is all in the name, Hobbesian_brute is it?. You parade around the forum as if you are an emancipated intellectual preaching to a herd of unfortunate, stupefied, brainwashed peasants who need rescuing from Islam. But nothing could be further from the truth. There is nothing logical or rational about your opinions, it is nothing more than a tedious repetitions of the lies propagated by a wacky and insane coalition of Christians zealots, racists bigots, atheists and recently enlightened Muslims like yourself. Let me state from the outset, there is nothing wrong with critiquing Islam but the criticisms have be valid and constructive and not a placket condemnation of Islam and muslims. So my advice to you Hobbesian_ brute, it takes a lot more than reading view books and blogs to be rational and logical, you need to stop with these repetitive slogans and anti Islam smears and to start thinking for yourself. We will then take your criticisms of Islam seriously. Till then we will see you as a man whose judgement is appalling that he willingly takes the name of a man who considered Africans as inferior savages.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

Gar_maqaate;971223 wrote:

^^ It is not much of a mystery to see your opinions and criticism of Islam originate from. It is all in the name, Hobbesian_brute is it?

:confused: i just picked that name as joke, don't read too much into a moniker.

 

Gar_maqaate;971223 wrote:

You parade around the forum as if you are an emancipated intellectual preaching to a herd of unfortunate, stupefied, brainwashed peasants who need rescuing from Islam. But nothing could be further from the truth. There is nothing logical or rational about your opinions, it is nothing more than a tedious repetitions of the lies propagated by a wacky and insane coalition of Christians zealots, racists bigots, atheists and recently enlightened Muslims like yourself.

How did i parade around this forum ? i have only posted on this particular topic at length since i joined. your entitled to your opinions if you think am not rational or logical. I am also entitled to mine, so don't feel threatened when i exercise them.

 

 

Gar_maqaate;971223 wrote:

Let me state from the outset, there is nothing wrong with critiquing Islam

but the criticisms have be valid and constructive and not a placket condemnation of Islam and muslims.

Good for you.

 

Gar_maqaate;971223 wrote:

So my advice to you Hobbesian_ brute,

it takes a lot more than reading view books and blogs to be rational and logical

, you need to stop with these repetitive slogans and anti Islam smears and to start thinking for yourself. We will then take your criticisms of Islam seriously.

I agree.

[MoonLight1]

Gar_maqaate;971223 wrote:

^^ It is not much of a mystery to see your opinions and criticism of Islam originate from. It is all in the name, Hobbesian_brute is it?. You parade around the forum as if you are an emancipated intellectual preaching to a herd of unfortunate, stupefied, brainwashed peasants who need rescuing from Islam. But nothing could be further from the truth. There is nothing logical or rational about your opinions, it is nothing more than a tedious repetitions of the lies propagated by a wacky and insane coalition of Christians zealots, racists bigots, atheists and recently enlightened Muslims like yourself. Let me state from the outset, there is nothing wrong with critiquing Islam but the criticisms have be valid and constructive and not a placket condemnation of Islam and muslims. So my advice to you Hobbesian_ brute, it takes a lot more than reading view books and blogs to be rational and logical, you need to stop with these repetitive slogans and anti Islam smears and to start thinking for yourself. We will then take your criticisms of Islam seriously.

Garmaqaate, hala yaabin sxb, a self hating atheist will always be a self hater. They are being used by these neo-con fascists who propagate hate against muslims and Islam. Just presenting few facts in their face annoys them and they will try to provoke you into chimney sweepers dance. let them preach what they are preaching since the sun can not be blocked by a palm. I'll conclude my article with this verse from the holy Quran.

[13:43] And those who were before them did also devise plans, but all effective devising of plans belongs to Allah. He knows what every soul earns; and the disbelievers shall soon know whose will be the final reward of this abode.

[DoctorKenney]

Brothers, please don't waste your time discussing this issue with these Kaffirs. It's obvious to everyone which issues are worth discussing and which issues aren't worth discussing at all.

 

These pointless arguments serve no purpose at all, as it's well known that an All-Islamic State does not exist so all these examples of Malaysia, Turkey, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan and all these other countries means absolutely nothing. There is no true Islamic State at all, but insha Allah we will see one in the future.

 

We're fasting, there's no use in wasting these precious hours in frivolous debates with people who dislike Islam. All the answers to any objections they have on Islam can be found all over internet. The entire reason why I even engaged in such a debate was to clear up any misconceptions from the minds of Muslims. I have no intention of giving da'wah to these godless atheists and consider it a waste of time.

[Gar_maqaate]

Hobbesian_Brute;971224 wrote:

:confused: i just picked that name as joke, don't read too much into a moniker.

 

I once read in a psychology blog that 75% of every joke is based on some sort of a perceived truth. I suppose you jokingly agree with Hobbes talk of savages and uncivilised cultures?Hobbesian brute!