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[Hobbesian_Brute]

DoctorKenney;970977 wrote:

Did I not already give you evidence directly from the Hadiths that the Jizyah tax be light, that it be taken with gentleness and respect, and that the Non-Muslim Dhimmis be treated with courtesy? And did I not provide you with the link which explores the issue in even greater detail? What is the point of repeating the same points over and over? You can't some Muslim writers and then expect their words to hold more credibility than the words of the Prophet himself and the 4 Righteous Caliphs. It accomplishes nothing at all.

 

Here is the link again:

 

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_status_of_non_muslims_in_the_islamic_state

I provided quran commentary, the highest Islamic source, not some Muslim writer as you say. That link you gave is sugarcoating the issue for western audiences just like you are, do you seriously think he would provide honest, impartial answers. your assertion that dhimmis are to be treated with respect and gentleness is a joke, Quran and history contradict your absurd lies. in any case we should be debating the fairness or unfairness of jizya, not how much the extortion money is or how it should be collected.

 

DoctorKenney;970977 wrote:

And then you ask the question "Who are the Non-Muslims being protected from?"....a ****** question since the obvious purpose of any State and Military is to protect its citizens. Otherwise it wouldn't exist. Its like the Police Motto "To Serve and Protect", and the protection is from people who wish to do people harm. Not understanding such basic points is really shocking to me at the moment.

your thickness shows through once again. it is not the same as the police protecting you as you harmlessly put it but far more sinister my friend. i asked that question for a reason because the non payment of jizya causes one to forfeit his life and property.

 

Ibn Qudama explains that in case of non-compliance with the dhimma pact, the dhimmi’s life and possessions are forfeit:

 

“A protected person who violates his protection agreement, whether by refusing to pay the head tax [jizya] or to submit to the laws of the community ... makes his person and his goods ‘licit’ [halal — freely available to be killed or captured by Muslims].”

 

 

 

DoctorKenney;970977 wrote:

And if you actually did state the facts then you wouldn't contradict yourself so thoroughly and then expect me to explain your point! You clearly contradicted yourself as you don't even know what the purpose of Jizyah is, how much should be charged, who should be charged Jizyah and how it should be taken.

Your playing games here so i won't even respond.

 

DoctorKenney;970977 wrote:

Back your assertions up, do not speculate and then expect us to understand your point. There are a huge number of Islamic resources going into the issue in detail and it is very clear that the

Jizyah Tax is very reasonable and very humane

. Any other points after this and I'm repeating myself so spare me the repetition

i have sufficiently backed up my assertions. There is a huge number of islamic sources but the basic idea of instituting a discriminative tax on the dhimmis is shared across all. of course its reasonable and humane in your eyes because your definition of those terms is grotesque to begin with.

 

For Iraqi Christians, Money Bought Survival

 

MOSUL, Iraq — As priests do everywhere, Archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho, the leader of the Chaldean Catholics in this ancient city, gathered alms at Sunday Mass. But for years the money, a crumpled pile of multicolored Iraqi dinars, went into an envelope and then into the hand of a man who had threatened to kill him and his entire congregation.

 

“What else could he do?” asked Ghazi Rahho, a cousin of the archbishop. “He tried to protect the Christian people.”

 

But American military officials now say that as security began to improve around Iraq last year, Archbishop Rahho, 65, stopped paying the protection money, one sliver of the frightening larger shadow of violence and persecution that has forced hundreds of thousands of Christians from Iraq. That decision, the officials say, may be why he was kidnapped in February.

 

Two weeks later, his body was found in a shallow grave outside Mosul, the biblical city of Nineveh.

 

Archbishop Rahho was among the highest-profile Iraqi Christians to die in the war. He was mourned by President Bush and Pope Benedict XVI before his role as a conduit for protection money paid by the Chaldean Christians to insurgents became known outside Iraq.

 

So reasonable and humane isn't it. real world application puts a lie to your assertions about jizya, the equivalent of the modern income tax as you say. By the way the same extortion happens to sikhs in pakistan, copts in egypt and everywhere muslims are majority and non muslims are minority except for a few countries. non muslims are leaving islamic dominated countries in droves because of the inherent unjustness of the islamic sharia system and its unending abuses on innocent non muslims whose only crime is to be a non believer.

[DoctorKenney]

Your definitions of what's acceptable and whats not is warped to begin with, so spare me your personal opinion of why you think Jizyah is wrong. And your news stories have no relevance to this at all, as I can easily just say (and rightfully so) that no Muslim country truly practices Sharia Law, so your example of Iraq is not worth mentioning. Anyone remotely familiar with Islamic Law would say the same thing.

 

Again, the tax is very light and poor people are exempt from paying it. And you keep mentioning that Non-Muslims are to be killed if they openly refuse to pay the Tax, as if you want us to ignore the very serious crime of tax evasion. And you completely ignored my example of the "Ridda Wars", where the Caliph Abu Bakr went to war against those Muslims who didn't pay their taxes. Its pointless discussing this very simple point with you and you seem to either be extremely slow or deliberately ignore what I've posted.

 

And to dismiss my Link as something not credible despite the fact that there are numerous quotations from the Prophet himself, as well as the Sahaba regarding the treatment of Non-Muslims, and they all agree that the Non Muslim Dhimmis be treated with ease and gentleness. If you dismiss my evidences for no reason other than the fact that they don't fit in with your world view, then there's no use in debating with you.

 

Your appeal to authority of Muslim writers is irrelevant, as in Islam the Prophets own word trumps that of any other Muslim. If the Prophet says one thing and a Muslim author says something else, then the Prophets word is to be taken.

 

The Hadiths and the Prophets words agree with me, whereas you quote irrelevant news stories and quotes from Muslim authors. Pathetic. Finish this discussion, and having the last word doesn't mean anything

 

Anyone who wants to learn more about this issue can visit

 

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_status_of_non_muslims_in_the_islamic_state

[Hobbesian_Brute]

DoctorKenney;971024 wrote:

Your definitions of what's acceptable and whats not is warped to begin with, so spare me your personal opinion of why you think Jizyah is wrong. And your news stories have no relevance to this at all, as I can easily just say (and rightfully so) that no Muslim country truly practices Sharia Law, so your example of Iraq is not worth mentioning. Anyone remotely familiar with Islamic Law would say the same thing.

How are my definitions of what is acceptable warped ?!, if the non muslims decided to be vindictive and petty like the muslims, what will come of you in the west ?. muslims will only understand when they get a taste of their own medicine, as their too thick and self righteous to reason.

 

Dismiss my evidence but its a clear testament to the heartlessness and injustice of the jizya system you call reasonable and humane.

 

if sharia law is truly applied, things get truly barbaric and horrific quickly as we have seen under Taliban controlled afghanistan and shabaab ruled somalia. don't even go there.

 

DoctorKenney;971024 Again, the tax is very light and poor people are exempt from paying it. And you keep mentioning that Non-Muslims are to be killed if they openly refuse to pay the Tax, as if you want us to ignore the

very serious crime of tax evasion

. And you completely ignored my example of the "Ridda Wars", where the Caliph Abu Bakr went to war against those Muslims who didn't pay their taxes. Its pointless discussing this very simple point with you and you seem to either be extremely slow or deliberately ignore what I've posted. [/quote wrote:

I don't care about its lightness, we are discussing the unfairness of the Jizya itself. why are non muslims only killed for tax evasion if we take your absurd justification seriously. ridda wars was one special occasion and there is no call for Muslims to be fought if they don't pay zaka, its a charity. your playing gymnastics my friend, that point has been debunked by another poster.

 

And to dismiss my Link as something not credible despite the fact that there are numerous quotations from the Prophet himself, as well as the Sahaba regarding the treatment of Non-Muslims, and they all agree that the Non Muslim Dhimmis be treated with ease and gentleness. If you dismiss my evidences for no reason other than the fact that they don't fit in with your world view, then there's no use in debating with you.

I have no use for apologists, he is involved in a dissimulation campaign aimed at the west. i am fully aware of this unlike his victims.

 

DoctorKenney;971024 wrote:

Your appeal to authority of Muslim writers is irrelevant, as in Islam the

Prophets own word trumps that of any other Muslim

. If the Prophet says one thing and a Muslim author says something else, then the Prophets word is to be taken.

Your stating the obvious, quoting from the commentary of the islamic sources i.e quran and hadeeth by renowned islamic scholars is legitimate, enough with your obfuscation.

 

DoctorKenney;971024 wrote:

The Hadiths and the Prophets words agree with me, whereas

you quote irrelevant news stories

and quotes from Muslim authors. Pathetic. Finish this discussion, and having the last word doesn't mean anything

I clearly quoted Ayahs from the Qur'an, Hadeeth, Muslim authors as well this new story to make my point, but your clearly trying to create fake smoke and hide in it. we can see through you. its sad this discussion won't enlighten you because your too dumb and deceitful.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

dp

[DoctorKenney]

Nice reply. There were no new points and nothing worthy of being responded to. Nice job countering my evidences with your rhetoric

[Hobbesian_Brute]

Listen to this sheikh if you know arabic and see the context for jizya: its about cutting necks and humiliating unbelievers. what a thuggish lifestyle and they wonder why people hate and mistrust them. soon the whole world will be on one side against this enemies of humanity.

 

 

[Maaddeey]

^ Thanks for posting the video, Bruto. He just translated The Quranic verse. Whats new?.

[MoonLight1]

hobbesian_brute;971073 wrote:

soon the whole world will be on one side against this enemies of humanity.

brute sxb that is not new, for 1400 years this religion has been harrased, fought against, and hated by infidels, read the history of the crusaders wars, the mongolian tatars who invaded baghdad, the colonial wars and lately the soviet & american wars but what is the result? Islam stayed and they all gone. So if empires could not bring down this religion, the likes of brute, rushdie or ayan hersi are like an ant fighting an elephant. The more you fight muslims the stronger their faith gets, that's the nature of this faith, so you are fighting a losing battle my friend.

[Haatu]

Hobbesian_Brute;971073 wrote:

what a thuggish lifestyle and they wonder why people hate and mistrust them. soon the whole world will be on one side against this enemies of humanity.]

They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

Yeah, somebody tell them they can't extinguish the flame of tolerance and liberty however much they scream like deranged beasts.

[Che -Guevara]

Hobbesian_Brute;971073 wrote:

soon the whole world will be on one side against this enemies of humanity.

LOL, you must be new to the world.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

There are still lots of peoples, cultures and countries that are ignorant or indifferent towards this ideology because their not in the front lines of terror today but it will eventually reach them because jihad is an open ended aggression against the whole world. a critical mass is being approached slowly.

[Che -Guevara]

That's rather simplistic and if you sincerely believe that, you are in lots of disappointments.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

islam is facing a foe it hasn't faced in its 1400 yrs of existence and that is MODERNITY. its ill equipped to deal with the modern world; no work ethic, no independent thought is encouraged but inflexible conformity to dogmas. the rest of the world is rapidly pulling away and muslim societies are falling ever more into decay and stagnation, they are at the bottom of the heap. Everywhere despised, mistrusted and looked down upon. all they are reduced to is boasting of medieval glories to massage their bruised egos. they don't understand that the arrow of time always moves forward and to succeed you must change with the times.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

you're gonna have to write more than one sentence for me to get your thoughts my friend, be clear.