Breaking news: Egypt Coup d'état, Morsy overthrown.

[kickz]

DoctorKenney;970741 wrote:

I know it would be better to ignore him, but the problem is.....there are many Muslims who view this forum. Many of these Muslims know

very little

of these Missionary tactics and are vulnerable to these arguments against Islam.

 

I'm well-experienced in dealing with these types of people, as I live close to 3 churches and I encounter Christians who attack Islam almost on a daily basis. I can see through their B.S. very easily, and I consider it an

obligation

to clear up the issues for my fellow Muslims.

 

I've dealt with almost every single argument against Islam throughout the years, and every new argument is the same. That's why I have to respond to it and show that Islam is a noble religion and is undoubtedly the truth.

 

Any Muslim who has any doubts or questions is free to message me and maybe I can help clear up any confusion insha Allah

Well said brother, ignorance rampant in our community now and people need reminders.

[kickz]

This is not from #Syria. This is from #Egypt

http://t.co/lkXwh**UNR

#StopMassacreInEgypt

— Islam Abdel-Rahman (@IslamRahman) July 27, 2013

 

[Hobbesian_Brute]

DoctorKenney;970738 wrote:

The Jizyah Tax is designed to give the Non-Muslim citizens many of the same rights and obligations as their Muslim counterparts. Only a fool could argue otherwise and sincerely expect that Non-Muslims shouldn't have to pay any tax at all, when the Zakat is a tax which every Muslim is required to pay.

The problem for you is Non Muslims don't have the same rights as Muslims and neither the same obligations.

 

1. they are not to build any new places of worship.

 

2. they are not to dress like Muslims.

 

3. they are not to ride on horses with saddle and bridle.

 

4. they are to entertain for three days any Muslim who wants to stay in their homes, and for a longer period if the Muslim falls ill.

 

5. they are not to name themselves with Muslim names.

 

Non Muslims are not agitating for a free ride as you disingenuously suggest but would like to pay the same tax rate as the Muslims and have the same obligations. Not even asking for representation for the taxes they pay.

 

DoctorKenney;970738 wrote:

Regarding your claim that it's a "punitive tax designed to make their lives difficult".

 

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 475:

Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun Al-Audi:

 

I recommend him to abide by the rules and regulations concerning the Dhimmis (protectees) of Allah and His Apostle, to fulfill their contracts completely and fight for them and

not to tax (overburden) them beyond their capabilities

."

 

And also:

 

'The jizya was so light that it did not constitute a burden on them, especially when we observe that it exempted them from compulsory military service that was an obligation for their fellow citizens, the Muslims.' (Sir Thomas Arnold, Invitation to Islam, p. 77)

Ever heard of not killing the Goose that lays the golden eggs, even the ancients were wise enough to know that, not bankrupt an important source of finances. its clear from history that islamic states in some places went into decline when the numbers of dhimmis went down since jizya receipts went down with them ( in some areas even conversion was stopped). This necessitated new jihad campaign into foreign lands to replenish the coffers of islamic state. The above hadeeth are imploring the believers not to milk dry their source of livelihoods and be smart about it. it in no way negates the unfair, punitive nature of the jizya -- which is a tribute akin to a mafia protection racket basically.

 

 

DoctorKenney;970738 wrote:

Furthermore, the tax is designed to compensate the Muslim State for having the obligation of fulfilling their rights as well as giving them military protection, as well as humble them.

It is a tributary tax and Non-Muslim women, children, monks, hermits, as well as the poor do not have to pay the Jizyah tax.

The tax is not binding on property as well as agriculture, but only binding on actual income. Whereas the Zakat Tax is binding on property, agriculture, investments, as well as income.

So the poor peoples conquered by islam in their native lands have an obligation to pay up for their protection, their rights to be fulfilled and to humble themselves, brilliant!.

 

DoctorKenney;970738 wrote:

If the Muslims are required to pay this Zakat tax, and are required to participate in military service if the need arises, then it also makes sense that Non-Muslims be required to pay the Jizyah tax. Only an ignorant person or one who's animosity towards Islam is well-known would claim otherwise.

Non Muslims are not allowed to do Military service, so can't use that an excuse

 

DoctorKenney;970738 wrote:

Do not come on this website and claim this lie that the Jizyah is to be taken regardless of the financial position of the person, when this is an outright lie. Don't come without any actual evidence.

Disprove that assertion with sources, go ahead.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

Missionary , attack islam ?, how did i attack islam by debating with you. if your comfortable with your beliefs defend them without crying for help from the moderator.

[puntnomads]

Hobbesian_Brute

"Disprove that assertion with sources, go ahead."

Why does he have to disprove your assertions when you provide no evidence. Anyone can make claims including me but without evidence it is pointless. At least the Doctor provide evidence for some of his assertions. If you want an intelligent debate back up every assertation with evidence other wise shut the **** up for we have no time for propaganda.

[Hobbesian_Brute]

Sources are plenty;

 

" "The honor of Islam lies in insulting the unbelief and the unbelievers (kafirs). One who respects kafirs dishonors Muslims... The real purpose of levying the Jizya on them is to humiliate them... [and] they remain terrified and trembling." Shaykh Ahmad Sirhind

 

Jizya was collected from all but the most destitute of dhimmis, Umar Ibn ElKhattab fixed it at 48 dirhams for the wealthy, 24 dirhams for the middle class and 12 dirhams for craftsmen and manual laborers. The payment was not uniform throughout islamic rule, it was upon the discretion of the individual rulers.

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Aslam, the mawla of Umar ibn al-Khattab, that Umar ibn al-Khattab imposed a jizya tax of four dinars on those living where gold was the currency, and forty dirhams on those living where silver was the currency. In addition, they had to provide for the muslims and receive them as guests for three days. Al Muwatta.

 

The dhimmis must have a posture when paying the jizya as well;

 

Lowering themselves by walking on their hands, reluctantly; on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas-but this is not accepted by everyone.

 

Here is ibn Kathir

 

Allah said, (until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam, (with willing submission), in defeat and subservience, (and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, "Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley." This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace.

 

In summary Jizya was an extortion tax imposed on non Muslims as humiliation, impediment to livelihood and inducement to convert to islam. its not a normal tax as insinuated by the poster in lieu of exemption from military service. a normal tax doesn't set conditions for citizens of a state according to their religion.

[Allyourbase]

Hi there, that was an excellent point you made there in the Jizya vs Zakat discussion. I can no longer post there for some reason, as my posts are required to be screened by a mod apparently. Anyways, I was wondering if you could post my response in the thread?

 

 

DoctorKenney;970695 wrote:

Actually, no. Zakat is very much a tax which is paid to the Islamic State and is administered by the Caliph himself. Who are you to intentionally distort these facts when it is

well documented

that after the Prophet (pbuh) died, Abu Bake took over as his successor and there were various Arab tribes in the Najd area who refused to pay their Zakat (although they still believed in Islam) and Abu Bakr organized a war against them for that reason (Sahih Muslim 0029)

 

The same way how in the United States, people here who refuse to pay their income tax are imprisoned and in some instances have their properties seized. So Zakat is very much a tax, whilst "Sadaqah" is something optional which you can decide to give however much you want.

 

Either way, Non-Muslims shouldn't be surprised that they would have to pay a tax in order to live in the Islamic State, and the Jizyah tax is normally very light (under 2% of your income)

 

You are wrong my friend. Your level of ignorance is one not to belittle, let me tell you:

 

There are strict beneficiaries of Zakat as listed above and in accordance to the Quran:

 

إِنَّمَا الصَّدَقَاتُ لِلْفُقَرَاءِ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَالْعَامِلِينَ عَلَيْهَا وَالْمُؤَلَّفَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَفِي الرِّقَابِ وَالْغَارِمِينَ وَفِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَاِبْنِ السَّبِيلِ فَرِيضَةً مِنَ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

 

You pay Zakat for the sake of your own salvation and as such there is no repercussions to evading Zakat (at least in this lifetime) as Mr Mohamed Bins Saleh al Authaimeen says:

 

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UTqzA_jX7-MC&pg=PA298&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Now what Mr Abubaker did was very much a political decision to keep the Califat together under his rule. Zakat is one of the five pillars of islam and as with the rest of the pillars of islam it can not be enforced on the general population. I would like to see the government force people to Salat or Hajj or to Fast even, its impossible my friend.

 

Do not come on this website, register, and then immediately decide to give arguments on subjects you know little about

You are wrong yet again my friend, for I have been a member of these quarters far longer than you.

 

Check yourself before you wreck yourself brother!

[DoctorKenney]

First you claimed:

 

1. That the Jizyah tax was set at artificially high rates and it was designed this way in order to intentionally make the lives of Non-Muslims difficult, thus forcing them into Islam.

 

And then you claim:

 

2. That the Jizyah tax was designed to enrich the State, and that the Caliph was forced to invade new lands to acquire more Dhimmi subjects, as the number of Dhimmis dwindled.

 

 

So which is it? Is it Option 1 or Option 2? Is your hatred of Islam so great that you can't even see the contradiction between the two positions? Or do you just say anything that comes to your mind? You are not a serious person at all.

 

This is a letter written by Abu Bakr, immediately following the Prophets death. This is addressed to the Non-Muslims:

'In the Name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful. This is the written statement of God's slave Abu Bakr, the successor of Muhammad, the Prophet and Messenger of God. He affirms for you the rights of a protected neighbor, in yourselves, your lands, your religious community, your wealth, retainers, and servants, those of you who are present or abroad, your bishops and monks, and monasteries, and all that you own, be it great or small. You shall not be deprived of any of it, and shall have full control over it.' (Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Kharaj, p. 79)

 

The Prophet (peace be upon him) and the four caliphs said that taking the Jizyah should be done with gentleness and respect. (Al-Mughni, Volume 4,

 

The Jizyah Tax is designed to bolster State resources as well as ensure that the rights of Non Muslims not be violated. Its a little hard for me to fully respond to you as I'm at work right now, but for you to dishonestly claim such things should serve as a warning to all Muslims reading my post, that these Non-Muslim critics are not to be trusted and will twist and turn every fact they see fit in order to bash Islam.

 

Anyone who wants to learn more about this issue should visit this link, as it goes about the issue in COMPLETE detail.

 

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_status_of_non_muslims_in_the_islamic_state

[DoctorKenney]

Non Muslims prospered immensely under the Muslim State, unlike the Muslims who were slaughtered in Israel, Spain and India. We Muslims have a degree of tolerance and respect which no other culture possesses and this is a fact. Anyone who argues otherwise is not in touch with reality.

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;970695 wrote:

Actually, no. Zakat is very much a tax which is paid to the Islamic State and is administered by the Caliph himself. Who are you to intentionally distort these facts when it is

well documented

that after the Prophet (pbuh) died, Abu Bake took over as his successor and there were various Arab tribes in the Najd area who refused to pay their Zakat (although they still believed in Islam) and Abu Bakr organized a war against them for that reason (Sahih Muslim 0029)

 

The same way how in the United States, people here who refuse to pay their income tax are imprisoned and in some instances have their properties seized. So Zakat is very much a tax, whilst "Sadaqah" is something optional which you can decide to give however much you want.

 

Either way, Non-Muslims shouldn't be surprised that they would have to pay a tax in order to live in the Islamic State, and the Jizyah tax is normally very light (under 2% of your income)

 

You are wrong my friend. Your level of ignorance is one not to belittle, let me tell you:

 

There are strict beneficiaries of Zakat as listed above and in accordance to the Quran:

 

إِنَّمَا الصَّدَقَاتُ لِلْفُقَرَاءِ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَالْعَامِلِينَ عَلَيْهَا وَالْمُؤَلَّفَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَفِي الرِّقَابِ وَالْغَارِمِينَ وَفِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَاِبْنِ السَّبِيلِ فَرِيضَةً مِنَ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

 

You pay Zakat for the sake of your own salvation and as such there is no repercussions to evading Zakat (at least in this lifetime) as Mr Mohamed Bins Saleh al Authaimeen says:

 

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UTqzA_jX7-MC&pg=PA298&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Now what Mr Abubaker did was very much a political decision to keep the Califat together under his rule. Zakat is one of the five pillars of islam and as with the rest of the pillars of islam it can not be enforced on the general population. I would like to see the government force people to Salat or Hajj or to Fast even, its impossible my friend.

[DoctorKenney]

This man has a ton of different claims with almost no real sources to back them up. I provided direct quotes from both the Prophet as well as the first 4 Caliphs who all ordered that the Jizyah Tax be light, that it be taken with respect, that the Non Muslims are free to practice their religion and prosper, that they aren't forced to accept Islam, that they won't be violated without having the protection of the Muslim Courts.

 

But this man claims otherwise and doesn't back his assertions. Prove it, either prove it or back down.

 

I already provided the link to all Muslims interested in this issue. But some of the Kafirs will always remain deaf, dumb and blind. Their hearts are sealed and they will never accept the truth. No use in discussions with some of them

[Allyourbase]

Dude, take a chill pill.

 

Where you have provided your own analysis and thought I've included Quran and Fatwas by Islamic scholars. As to the points raised by Hobbesian Brute, they too were well backed by Hadith, so please either respond with Quran and Hadith or scholarly sources or just leave this discussion.

[DoctorKenney]

Everything has to have a provided context. And again, I don't have the time to go into detail as I'm on my phone and at work. Visit the link I posted because every single thing I wanted to say should be inside that link.

 

Either sincerely search for the truth or shut up. Don't get into discussions for the sake of discussions. Just discuss the issues whilst sincerely searching for the truth. The evidence is all in that link

[Mad_Mullah]

Look at one of his sources:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Sirhindi

 

A sufi LOOL. Missionaries are getting frustrated!

[Hobbesian_Brute]

DoctorKenney;970838 wrote:

First you claimed:

 

1. That the Jizyah tax was set at artificially high rates and it was designed this way in order to intentionally make the lives of Non-Muslims difficult, thus forcing them into Islam.

 

And then you claim:

 

2. That the Jizyah tax was designed to enrich the State, and that the Caliph was forced to invade new lands to acquire more Dhimmi subjects, as the number of Dhimmis dwindled.

 

 

So which is it? Is it Option 1 or Option 2? Is your hatred of Islam so great that you can't even see the contradiction between the two positions? Or do you just say anything that comes to your mind? You are not a serious person at all.

I don't know about artificially high rates but reconciling option 1 and 2 was a dilemma for the Muslims, their desire for steady revenue from the dhimmis clashed with their duty to convert non believers. that is why i touched on conversions being discouraged in some places lest the jizya revenue dry up.

 

DoctorKenney;970838 wrote:

This is a letter written by Abu Bakr, immediately following the Prophets death. This is addressed to the Non-Muslims:

'In the Name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful. This is the written statement of God's slave Abu Bakr, the successor of Muhammad, the Prophet and Messenger of God. He affirms for you the rights of a protected neighbor, in yourselves, your lands, your religious community, your wealth, retainers, and servants, those of you who are present or abroad, your bishops and monks, and monasteries, and all that you own, be it great or small. You shall not be deprived of any of it, and shall have full control over it.' (Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Kharaj, p. 79)

 

The Prophet (peace be upon him) and the four caliphs said that taking the Jizyah should be done with gentleness and respect. (Al-Mughni, Volume 4,

You know the Qura'an takes precedence over all the other sources right ? Here is what the ayah regarding Jizya says unambiguously;

 

"Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued".. the bolded parts mean what they say, the rest is unimportant.

 

 

DoctorKenney;970838 wrote:

The Jizyah Tax is designed to bolster State resources as well as ensure that the rights of Non Muslims not be violated. Its a little hard for me to fully respond to you as I'm at work right now, but for you to dishonestly claim such things should serve as a warning to all Muslims reading my post, that these Non-Muslim critics are not to be trusted and will twist and turn every fact they see fit in order to bash Islam.

We knew it was a revenue/extortion scheme, but don't lie, it has nothing to do with keeping the rights of dhimmis as they are accorded very little rights to begin with and treated as second class citizens in their own country. lastly why do you always end your writing with rants that have nothing to do with discussion at hand. stick to the topic.