Chimera Posted May 21, 2013 On both fronts, security and national healing, the performance of the national government so far is wanting! I reject this! Why are the leaders of Jubbaland so different from the leaders of Ahlu Sunnah with regards to the Federal government? Why are the leaders of Jubbaland so different from the leaders of Galmudug with regards to the Federal government? Why are the leaders of Jubbaland so different from the leaders of Puntland with regards to the Federal government? I see respect for the highest offices there, I see acceptance of the government's national and international status there. Each time a federal delegate was send from the capital they were turned back in a humiliating fashion, and when finally the PM tried to convince them to give the Federal government a more prominent role it was rejected. Why? The government never said at the time that the likes of Ahmed Madoobe could never be elected, so why the secrecy, the media-black out, the discussions with a foreign president when you pose as a regional admin, the sudden election? Its all too shady for me. Also, more than a million people have been liberated in the South since August in the form of urban hubs, towns and villages, while vital roads have been re-opened, piracy is down and nationwide security is much better today than it was in previous years, despite the few cowardice car-bombings here and there. That this was achieved with foreign muscle is irrelevant(a reality that was already there before the current admin), if the latter were to lose all of these gains to a resurgent Al-Shabaab, there would be only one entity blamed for this, not Amisom, not Al-Shabaab, not the regional states, not the international community, but the Federal government! I will do the same. But it seems as if you are confusing centralized government with national government! I want Somalia to have a solid and unified national government. But if the current reality is that regional states will continue to exist, then I am of the opinion that what you call a government is the sum total of these regional states! by the way, I am a centralist when it comes to the centralist-Federalist debate. But I think we should move in phases. Right now, the national mood is allergic to centralized system of governance. I'm referring to the Somali superstructure, the only one that can been seen on a international platform, and fight for our interests that are beyond individuals such as Ahmed Madoobe or Hassan Sheikh. The skeleton of this superstructure is now there, and recognized as such by the established superstructures of the world, but if we untangle it like we did the last one in 1991, expect twenty more years of this degenerate fate. How many times did I say Ethiopia, Kenya and foreigners are messing Somalia in this forum? So, you are preaching to the converted here. But that our main ailment is domestic and not foreigners meddling is also not a conspiracy theory or my flimsy concoction! So, tell me how we can sort out our mess, while we stand against foreigners at the same time. I will follow you. The Federal government is already asserting itself and defending our interests through independent stabilization plans, the reshuffle of governors and administrators, the reconstruction of Somali institutions such as the military, the police and the justice system, the alignment with important allies such as Turkey, and Qatar, etc Any of the previous administrations would have collapsed already, and engaging in political infighting, but this government stands strong and united as a diverse block of skilled politicians. I trust the intention of the national government too. I DON'T trust its competency to deal with the issues at hand. I don't trust what is happening in Kismaayo, but I don't think trust should be an issue in this matter. I want solutions. And I proposed one. President Hassan must accept the reality that is called Jubbaland and Ahmed Madoobe and his henchmen must adhere to the national constitution and give the national government the respect and the role it deserves. ONLY then, will we be able to stand up to Kenyan meddling. A house divided... I would accept Ahmed Madoobe's Jubbaland project on those terms, but unfortunately, the kind of respect you are referencing is only shown to Uhurro Kenyatta, a president of a foreign country and for that reason I am firmly behind the Federal government and trust their judgment on this issue, who through their policies and actions will deliver a scenario that's beneficial to the Somali people in the long term. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Abtigiis Posted May 21, 2013 Chimera;953076 wrote: One example, the UK: - Functioning health facilities supported by UKaid increased from 15 to 60 - Proportion of under-five children fully vaccinated increased from 45% to 65% - Use of contraception increased from 1% to 10% - At least 45,000 sustainable jobs created, of which 15,000 will be for women - £6 million in private investments mobilised, and the business environment improved through infrastructure projects - 16 districts supported to expand access to basic services, and the number of people accessing security and justice increased by 50% - 500,000 people a year provided with basic humanitarian assistance --- UKGov That is real progress, and through donor money. Oh! Chimera! what are statistics without a timeframe or a baseline! These supposed achievements are for which duration? Since September 2012 when the new Government was elected or since last five years? Remember, we are juding the role this current administration has or had in the rise of donor funding, not whether donor funding per se is important or not! Second, WFP feeds 1.8 million people per month in south Somalia. UNICEF provides nutritional support to over 300,000 children per month. WASH services reach over 2.5 million people in Somalia. Blah, blah, blah.... Statistics in Somalia mean nothing and often are false because we are privy to how they are manufactured! don't get me started! Just go visit IDP camps in Mogadishu and then read the websites of humanitarian agencies and tell me if what you read remotely relates to what you observed. False data presented by NGOs who operate in a context where there is no monitoring framework is suspect. The UK statistics is derived from reports these humanitarian agencies submit to DFID and other donors. When I am not doing palaver in this site, I deal with figures and I can tell you up front what you quoted is trash! But you have the right to disagree with me and you are entitled to your maudlin gullibility. We are discussing the Federal government as if this is its second term, its only been in power for less than a year. However the absolute vital recognition of the Somali government for the first time in decades is a serious game-changer, and now we are in a period where the government is signing deals and attending conventions for reconstruction and development funds. We are only giving opinions on what they have done so far and the outlook. We are not writing the government off. So, calm down. As to whether the recognition of the Somali Government is actually for the "first time", I am not sure. Abdullahi Yusuf's government was recognized internationally. Sheikh Sharif was recognized internationally. That meeting with Obama and the wording that came out was not correct! No one cared to correct it, and the Hassan government actually printed the statement and posted on the walls of Mogadishu streets. So, again, I don't think it is a game-changer. What is a game-changer is the defeat of Alshabab and progress in setting up governance structures. Are you really surprised by that after the decades of shameless tuugnimo eminating from Villa Somalia? This Federal Government did not start with a clean slate in their eyes, it had to contend with the fact that the highest offices and the whole Somali political scene in the country was utterly tarnished by the corruption of previous administrations. No, I am not surprised by anything. But I will not congratulate the current government for achievements they have done nothing to contribute to. Not because I don't like the Government, but because it is wrong to give credit where there is none. Through reforms and other measures it has managed to regain the trust of donors, and now they are waiting in line to support the government. Good news. But financial reforms in Mogadishu, while good, are not game-changers, as I outlined above. Changing the unfavorable geo-politics exemplified by Ethiopia's and Kenya's meddling and bringing the feuding clans together is the game-changer. Maintaining security and progress is just as important as establishing security and progress. The Federal government is improving and expanding upon the work of previous admins, as a national government should, Somalia is more important than any single administration. You did not show any evidence for your assertion, but I am fine with it. In any case, security is really in the hands of others and the government is a follower in that front! Truthfully Sheikh Sharif was going nowhere during his period with Nur, but he was lucky to have two Prime-ministers that were both competent and skilled managers to take vital steps forward. I was talking about Sheikh Sharif's Government, not him as a person, the same way I am talking about the Hassan government when I refer it President Hassan, and not the man himself! Actually the EU, UK and US support in terms of development for these regions is absolutely vital, and contributes in major way to their progress. However neither Somaliland nor Puntland can match the capabilities of a national government recognized by the world and with access to funds that could transform those regions. In fact all of their heavy infrastructure, be it roads or deepsea ports date back to the previous central governments. It is vital but if you visit Hargeisa and Garowe, the growth and development you immediately feel is what the locals built! Agree about most of the infrastructure being from previous central government, but then where did I say regions should go by themselves? I did not argue that if regions are fine, we don't need a national government! I realize that the return of the central Somalia state is indispensable, but that it may return in different shape and format! at least for now! It would be erroneous to assume that Jubbaland can immediately be compared to regions like Somaliland or Puntland, the latter are decades old and went through a lot to get to where they are today. Do the people of the Jubbas have another decade or two to spare before actual concrete development is ushered in? You need the Federal government for that, and having your regional president ignoring that same entity is not wise. Straw man fallacy! He who made that argument should step forward and defend it. Poor Abtigiis has nothing to do with it. I reject this! Why are the leaders of Jubbaland so different from the leaders of Ahlu Sunnah with regards to the Federal government? Why are the leaders of Jubbaland so different from the leaders of Galmudug with regards to the Federal government? Why are the leaders of Jubbaland so different from the leaders of Puntland with regards to the Federal government? I see respect for the highest offices there, I see acceptance of the government's national and international status there. Ahlu sunna is not a region, and actually their man in Jubba is fine with the Jubbaland thing. Jubbaland leaders seem to be more conciliatory than Puntland vis-à-vis their relationship with the national government. The return of this or that delegation from the airport is the same as the daily humiliation government decrees face inside Mogadishu with District Chairman's refusing to accept it! Why is it different to Galmudug? You know the answer! Refer to Ngonge's 'it is the clan ******' jingo! I would accept Ahmed Madoobe's Jubbaland project on those terms, but unfortunately, the kind of respect you are referencing is only shown to Uhurro Kenyatta, a president of a foreign country... This is true! it is shameful Ahmed Madoobe is running to Nairobi days after his election, validating that he is a stooge of foreigners! But in history, stooges shaped the destiny of countries. Sadly. Had Moses Tshombe not conspired with Belgian's to kill Lumumba, Congo's current predicament may have been averted! The import of this being that we need solutions to thwart this threat not curses! If assuaging the ego of Ahmed Madoobe can undermine Kenya's grand schemes, why not try it? But one thing you should know is that had it been the case that it is only Ahmed Madoobe running to Nairobi with his community denouncing him as a traitor, it would have been easy. The majority of SAHAL community will be cheering Ahmed Madoobe for running to the cocoon of Kenyatta. if this doesn't tell you, how deep the divisions in our community are, I don't know what else will help you see that predicament! The majority of SAHAL including nearly all of their representatives in the same National Government in Mogadishu, which you support! Wake up! Here, I see you are dreaming. P.S. please don't mind the delivery of my message. It is not civil, I know it. But then if we all act in civil way in this forum, this place will be too serious and we will die of ennui. :D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tallaabo Posted May 21, 2013 Abtigiis;952959 wrote: Alpha, waa khayr saaxiib! Ninkaas waan ku ceebeeys nahay; maanta ama bari ayaan la soo hadli doonaa. Ninyahow hawlaha aduunkaa iska badan oo wax kasta ku iloowsiin! Sida kale waa maqlay inaad gabdho badan uniform ka May aydhiin ( May 18) u tooshay doorkan! WHAT???:rolleyes: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xiinfaniin Posted May 21, 2013 So Mogadishu government and residents in the city are more nationalistic than the Jubba community that spent more than one year to setup a federal state? And to top it, having a good relationship with Kenya is a treason, and Ahmed Madoobe meeting with Kenyatta is bad? Come on guys - be practical Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baashi Posted May 21, 2013 ^ Nah! Abtigiis waa la habaabay Let's find out what makes Chimera tik! Here we go..Is Chimera loyal to Somalia the country or is he loyal to President Hassan and his government? Where does he stand on dissent? There are some folks who believe deep down that dissent is the highest form of patriostism? If what Hassan is doing -- irrespective of the clan he hails or the party he belongs to -- seems to some (let say Madoobe or Faroole or Jawaari or other significant political figure in the current crop of high wheeler-Dealer class) practically unattainable or wrongheaded what are they supposed to do? Sing hail to the chief? If that line of inquiry does not make sense let me shoot it from different angle: If the very social contract that brought all the competing sides together is gradually modified (unilaterally) or its edicts ignored by one branch of government and corrective and constructive action is in order how does one go about this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chimera Posted May 21, 2013 Abtigiis;953091 wrote: Oh! Chimera! what are statistics without a timeframe or a baseline! These supposed achievements are for which duration? Since September 2012 when the new Government was elected or since last five years? Remember, we are juding the role this current administration has or had in the rise of donor funding, not whether donor funding per se is important or not! No, that is you moving the goal-post, this is what you said in a previous reply: Of course, your assertion that progress in these key areas will come or have came from donor money (international) is erroneous and not supported by evidence. -- Abtigiis I provided evidence on the contrary, though you rejected it, which is fine, but it still stands. I deal with figures and I can tell you up front what you quoted is trash! But you have the right to disagree with me and you are entitled to your maudlin gullibility. We all know about the Nairobi Maffia and their inflating figures, this doesn't mean a whole lot of our people aren't in dire need, or helped by these same agencies. My point was Somalia in its current predicament needs the international community, be it the donors or the humanitarian agencies. You're constructing a debate where your form of "evidence" is legitimate, but the ones I provide are false. A strawman festival if I ever saw one. We are only giving opinions on what they have done so far and the outlook. We are not writing the government off. So, calm down. As to whether the recognition of the Somali Government is actually for the "first time", I am not sure. Abdullahi Yusuf's government was recognized internationally. Sheikh Sharif was recognized internationally. That meeting with Obama and the wording that came out was not correct! No one cared to correct it, and the Hassan government actually printed the statement and posted on the walls of Mogadishu streets. So, again, I don't think it is a game-changer. Its a game-changer, and the wording was intentional and significant: "We have moved into a normal sovereign-nation-to-sovereign-nation position and we have moved into an era where we are going to be a good partner, a steadfast partner, to Somalia as Somalia makes the decisions for its own future." -- Hillary Clinton Cheers! What is a game-changer is the defeat of Alshabab and progress in setting up governance structures. That would be a victory, not a game-changer. No, I am not surprised by anything. But I will not congratulate the current government for achievements they have done nothing to contribute to. Not because I don't like the Government, but because it is wrong to give credit where there is none. Now your doing the same thing as NGONGE, and ignore all of the achievements that I had listed in the previous page, delivered in only 8 months. To pretend that it's nothing, is a biased exaggeration to the least. Good news. But financial reforms in Mogadishu, while good, are not game-changers, as I outlined above. Changing the unfavorable geo-politics exemplified by Ethiopia's and Kenya's meddling and bringing the feuding clans together is the game-changer. Financial reforms in the capital of Somalia is another building block to get the country out of its current state of dependency be it economically or military. You did not show any evidence for your assertion, but I am fine with it. The Federal government has maintained and gained more land under its control than the previous admin, unless there is a parallel world where Al-Shabaab has regained the capital and other cities such as Merka, Barawa and Baidoa? In any case, security is really in the hands of others and the government is a follower in that front! Hahahahaha, this made laugh sxb, you know why? You dismiss all of my examples where the government is reasserting itself economically, internationally and military through reforms, funds, diplomatic relations and defense, but then with the same breath demean that government for being in the current position it finds itself in because of the legacy of previous administrations. You refuse to give credit for their achievements because the seeds were laid by previous governments, but want them to take full responsibility for their current status regardless of the mess that came before them, a strawman festival indeed. I was talking about Sheikh Sharif's Government, not him as a person, the same way I am talking about the Hassan government when I refer it President Hassan, and not the man himself! At least use -administration behind their names, or nobody but you will know. It is vital but if you visit Hargeisa and Garowe, the growth and development you immediately feel is what the locals built! Agree about most of the infrastructure being from previous central government, but then where did I say regions should go by themselves? I did not argue that if regions are fine, we don't need a national government! I realize that the return of the central Somalia state is indispensable, but that it may return in different shape and format! at least for now! I don't reject the concept of Jubbaland, I simply don't like how the situation is being handled. That Old Somalia is dead is something I have accepted years back, but this doesn't mean a better one can't be shaped. However if there is no compromise, and only mistrust, then forget about it. Straw man fallacy! He who made that argument should step forward and defend it. Poor Abtigiis has nothing to do with it. Poor Abtigiis must have amnesia: Second, Somaliland and Puntland, have registered much more progress with lesser international backing. So, if peace returns to the Jubbaland, economic progress and socio-economic developments will be achieved. - Abtigiis This is you comparing the economic and developmental potential of a post-established Jubbaland with the decades old Somaliland and Puntland. Therefore it is YOU who must come forward and answer my previous reply. Ahlu sunna is not a region That much is clear, but they did dislogde Al-Shabaab from important areas, and still joined the Federal military, despite having the opportunity to create nacnac land. If Madoobe allowed his Ras Kamboni forces to come under the same jurisdiction, that's a step in the right direction. , and actually their man in Jubba is fine with the Jubbaland thing. Jubbaland leaders seem to be more conciliatory than Puntland vis-à-vis their relationship with the national government. The return of this or that delegation from the airport is the same as the daily humiliation government decrees face inside Mogadishu with District Chairman's refusing to accept it! Terrible analogy, makes no sense at all, please have another try. Why is it different to Galmudug? You know the answer! Refer to Ngonge's 'it is the clan ******' jingo! Bloody clan-system. This is true! it is shameful Ahmed Madoobe is running to Nairobi days after his election, validating that he is a stooge of foreigners! But in history, stooges shaped the destiny of countries. Sadly. Had Moses Tshombe not conspired with Belgian's to kill Lumumba, Congo's current predicament may have been averted! The import of this being that we need solutions to thwart this threat not curses! If assuaging the ego of Ahmed Madoobe can undermine Kenya's grand schemes, why not try it? I'm perfectly fine with Madoobe running the place if it means peace, I'm perfectly fine with Barre running the place if it means peace. I care not for these shady characters, but again it takes two to tango. If Madoobe had allowed the government a more visible and direct role in the election, what makes you think the same "majority" that voted him to win, would not do so under Federally sponsored election? You explain that to me. But one thing you should know is that had it been the case that it is only Ahmed Madoobe running to Nairobi with his community denouncing him as a traitor, it would have been easy. Definitely, the country is still crawling with selfish interests. The majority of SAHAL community will be cheering Ahmed Madoobe for running to the cocoon of Kenyatta. if this doesn't tell you, how deep the divisions in our community are, I don't know what else will help you see that predicament! The majority of SAHAL including nearly all of their representatives in the same National Government in Mogadishu, which you support! The same national government that tried to depose our excellent PM because of the Jubbaland project? Its only another sign that this government is all-inclusive, if various power-blocks are contesting their interests in the capital, peacefully and legitimately. Wake up! Here, I see you are dreaming. Very original. :cool: P.S. please don't mind the delivery of my message. It is not civil, I know it. But then if we all act in civil way in this forum, this place will be too serious and we will die of ennui. :D I saw nothing rude about it, and I agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baashi Posted May 21, 2013 The underlying assumption is that there is deep mistrust among Somali clannish politicians. The only thing that brought them together is the outcome of the roadmap. Many significant players signed up to the social contract solely because they thought the draft constitution had in it safegaurds that will limit the power of the federal government. My man Hassan has reservation to that central tenant. He is entitled to have his views as shown on his PDP political platform. He is no longer Hwyie dominated PDP chairman. He is now the president of federal Somalia. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chimera Posted May 21, 2013 Baashi;953110 wrote: ^ Nah! Abtigiis waa la habaabay Let's find out what makes Chimera tik! Here we go..Is Chimera loyal to Somalia the country or is he loyal to President Hassan and his government? Somalia. Where does he stand on dissent? There are some folks who believe deep down that dissent is the highest form of patriostism? If what Hassan is doing -- irrespective of the clan he hails or the party he belongs to -- seems to some (let say Madoobe or Faroole or Jawaari or other significant political figure in the current crop of high wheeler-Dealer class) practically unattainable or wrongheaded what are they supposed to do? Sing hail to the chief? Dissent if the government is corrupt, dissent if the government launches a degenerate conventional war, dissent if a government is non-inclusive, dissent if a government uses brutal force to impose its vision upon any specific region without the consent of the locals, but don't dissent because it has a clear national stabilization plan( which is its mandated right), don't dissent just because the PM and the President see eye to eye, don't dissent just because of perceived clan-hegemonies of which there is no substantiating evidence, other neat acronyms. If that line of inquiry does not make sense let me shoot it from different angle: If the very social contract that brought all the competing sides together is gradually modified (unilaterally) or its edicts ignored by one branch of government and corrective and constructive action is in order how does one go about this? Somali leaders lack of close communication, and political decorum pisses me off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baashi Posted May 21, 2013 So you say “loyalty to COUNTRY always, loyalty to government when it deserves”. Pretty good! Ahmed Madoobe and Faroole do have the consent of the majority of their respective dominion. Both of them have different view of how and when federalism should be implemented. But both leaders are not on the same page with Hassan. And make no mistake they disagree on the very thing that matters the most: the substance of the social contract. Oh! Communication? They do communicate alright! Hassan and Farole had ample time to talk face to face. It just so happen that they didn’t see eye to eye on the question of federalism. Likewise Saacid and Madoobe had ample to time to iron out their differences but to no avail. Now what Chimera? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chimera Posted May 21, 2013 Baashi;953125 wrote: Now what Chimera? Compromise; A settlement of differences in which each side makes concessions. Haye, I'm dreaming. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baashi Posted May 21, 2013 Actually you are doing pretty well. Compromise is the name of the game. But compromise on what? The social contract itself? How does Chimera go about it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chimera Posted May 21, 2013 I'm leaving for outside brother, rain-check, (though I already highlighted a few of the things Madoobe could do in good faith, in reply to the measures the government could do to entice the former into its fold presented by Abtigiis). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baashi Posted May 21, 2013 I'm at work too and short of time. I just hope you understand that there is deficit of trust in all sides. The one thing they all hoped would play a mediating role and settle political argument is NOT WORKING. Unless you fix the rules of the game you won't have pleasant and orderly game. This is not about a rebel warlord on Nairobi payroll doing the bidding of foreign powers against benevolent and patriotic leader trying to revive the state. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xiinfaniin Posted May 21, 2013 Baashi;953142 wrote: This is not about a rebel warlord on Nairobi payroll doing the bidding of foreign powers against benevolent and patriotic leader trying to revive the state. Only if many Somalis understood the conflict in that light Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Abtigiis Posted May 21, 2013 Chimera;953128 wrote: Compromise ; A settlement of differences in which each side makes concessions . Isn't this the central argument I have been advancing through the course of this thread? Maxaad ii daalinaysay kolkaa? And who are the 'each side' you refer to? As long as President Hassan doesn't accept Madoobe as the 'other side' to be negotiated with, where does the path for compromise start from? Bashe, I did not miss anything. I don't think the legitimacy Faroole or Ahmed Madoobe has is equal to that of President Hassan. In fact, it is because I think he has more legitimacy by virtue of being the national leader, that I demand more from him and I put more responsibility for what goes wrong on his shoulders? But, I agree with your summary that President Hassan seems to have a problem of distinguishing his personal views and preferences from the agreed upon national views as stipulated in the Constitution. It is his insistence to trust his judgment over the collective opinions of the country that will prove to be his major undoing! With the Gedo governor appointed by Prime Minister Saacid now recognizing Ahmed Madoobe, I want to know if Gabbal still thinks Gedo is not onboard. And I want to reiterate that compromise is the only solution. But it would have been far better if President Hassan had the foresight and vision to foresee that this was coming and could have saved us the embarrassment of foreign leaders mediating between him and a leader of a fiefdom. It fatally diminishes his stature as a national leader. He will find himself in more invidious positions if he does not fire his current advisors and get some real brains by his side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
