SOL: Where priggish goat-skinners parade as political pundits

[xiinfaniin]

^^NGONGE

 

You are absolutely correct in stating that the federal government presented a parallel narrative , a one with a grim prospect of renewed conflict in Kismayo. But in all fairness, and not withstanding the propaganda offense from Mogadishu, Kismayo has reached a political milestone that cannot be reversed. It can be delayed (and has been delayed), but cannot be reversed.

 

Barre is not an issue in Kismayo (his traditional leaders, politicians , Gedo reps in IGAD observed Jubba committees , and Gedo ergo are all supportive of this process, and they still are). However, federal government's stance is the source of the Kismayo conflict. Like professor Abtigiis said, if Hassan maintains this position, he will either defeat everyone in that region or he will lose, sustaining a permanent dent on his presidency. It is his choice. He is the sole driver of this madness. Ahmed Madoobe and the Kismayo team has been very reasonable in accepting federal government's legitimacy in the process. But it is the government that want to stop the whole thing and start over

 

As a Kismayo supporter I feel I have the political ball with me now.

[Chimera]

NGONGE;952481 wrote:

Chimera,

 

War don't give me a full defence of your person dee. I am not too bothered about your noble positions regarding clans, uncles or countries. I only deal with the words you write and how I preceive these words. If you choose to discuss politics (which you have done there and repeated by making the Democrat/Republican analogy above), dee don't get all worked up and you're pulled up on it, saaxib.

I'm defending my right to express an opinion in a political discussion without being heckled with red-herrings. I expect that from the many one-dimensional trolls roaming here, not you.

 

p.s.

The government are doing well but the house of cards they're building will come tumbling down unless they do something about the internal problems. Wax fahan.

I disagree, otherwise the ICU or Al-Shabaab would still reign in Somalia, but they don't, precisely because they failed to establish an international presence compatible with the rest of the world, unlike the Federal government.

[Chimera]

Abtigiis;952483 wrote:

But his list of achievement of the government is selective and exaggerated. I deal with some of the things he ascribed for the government and the government's role is pathetic.

These are milestones any previous administration would have died for, and to consider them pathetic is an exaggeration. I replied to NGONGE's statement that this government is "incompetent", because this list contradicts that statement.

 

Furthermore, all of the things he listed are the least that worry me now. The main political issues that can make or break Somalia are not in Chimera's list. I agree with you about the criticality of addressing the internal problems rather than exaggerate the international gains, which in the real sense amount to nothing and do not change the living conditions of Somalis. Giving Somalia's airspace from UNDP to government is an inconsequential and symbolic victory, whose lustre will fade in few weeks. It means little to the millions of Somalis suffering from war and hunger.

The healthcare, education and economic reforms will positively benefit millions of Somalis, in the form of schools, hospitals/immunization campaigns, trade and agriculture, investment funds and reconstruction projects. A new state in the Jubbas would not be capable of providing such drastic changes that the Federal Government through its international gains and reconstructed institutions will be capable of delivering. That you chose the "control of airspace" out of that long list of achievements is disingeneous Abtigiis, and you know it.

 

Also, if I have to choose between the total absence of government or a government that has political issues with a certain region(still largely under the yoke of Al-Shabaab), but at the same time is making serious progress, I will always choose the latter option, 10 out of 10 times. That there are foreign interests in Somalia undermining the Federal government, be it Ethiopian or Kenyan interests is not a conspiracy theory, unless we consider Siad Barre's hand in Ethiopia's past misery as a fairy tale, we passed on to the next generation.

 

I trust this government, I don't trust what's happening in Kismayo, that's my position.

[Chimera]

Tallaabo;952564 wrote:

You are right about that. Chimera's enthusiasm is well placed but the truth is the Somali Republic of the 1980s had all that he listed and much more yet disappeared into the dustbin of history because of internal problems.

There is a huge difference, the Federal government is using legitimate means to further its interests. Today it announced guns would not decide the fate of that region, and that's nothing like the militaristic bravado and actions of the regime in the 1980s.

[xiinfaniin]

^^That is sooooooooooo unlike you today , Oodweyne . What did you eat for breakfast ?

 

Gabal baa hadalkii dhameeyey ku lahaa, ma Oodweynaa hadal ka dhamaadaa

[xiinfaniin]

^^Nin uu Gabal u hadlo ma tihide, xattaa anaadan ii ogelyn inaan kuu hadle e, see wax yihiin . Mise weli shukaansigii laba geesoodka ahaa ee Xamar baad weli waddaa ?

[gooni]

Meesha laba madaxweynaa laga doortay axmed islaam iyo barre islaam umana baahna inaad energy badan ku bixisaan waayo xaflado badan baan kasoo qayb galnay tii waax iyo waadi hiiraan state waraf iyo shinbiro etc, xiin iyo reer tolkiisna maahan inay nooga dhigaan doorashada madoobe in quraan laga akhriyay,kuwo ka qurxoon baan soo daawanay.

[xiinfaniin]

Oodweyne;952812 wrote:

Mayee nimanka tolka ah ee garta isula fadhiistey in aan midna guul siiyo ka kalana aan ciid cantuugsiiyo ayaa ila qurux badnaan weyday..

Waa tii guurtidii Oodweyne awoowe.

 

Gooni,

 

Awoowe, Kismayo waan kugu meherinay oo madaxweyne ku xige iyo waxwalba lagaa sii , ee waxaad na leedahay ilaa wadaad usc ahi igu meheriyo iguman xiranto

 

war gabadhii Kismayo ahayd waa kugu mehersantahay ee orodo la aqal gal, inta cuqdada iska daysid reerkaba culumo waa u joogtaaye

[Abtigiis]

The healthcare, education and economic reforms will positively benefit millions of Somalis, in the form of schools, hospitals/immunization campaigns, trade and agriculture, investment funds and reconstruction projects. A new state in the Jubbas would not be capable of providing such drastic changes that the Federal Government through its international gains and reconstructed institutions will be capable of delivering. That you chose the "control of airspace" out of that long list of achievements is disingeneous Abtigiis, and you know it.

Chimera, you are equally if not more disingenuous because you are putting words into my mouth. No where in this debate did I imply that health, education and economic developments will not benefit ordinary Somalis. Of course, your assertion that progress in these key areas will come or have came from donor money (international) is erroneous and not supported by evidence .

 

First, Somalia has enough resources, which if marshaled responsibly, can transform its people. Primarily, it needs peace and the creation of an enabling environment for growth and investment, over and above donor money. But I do not dispute international support will help, although no major changes from the international donors really happened after the formation of the Federal Government. 99% of donor money is still channeled through humanitarian and development non-governmental agencies! So, I do not know why you imply the little progress in Mogadishu has to do with the current government. Security improvements -largely due to international support - allowed for Somalis to invest in their country and if you are giving that credit to Hassan Sheikh, so be it. I would have thought Sheikh Sharif laid the foundations for the serious engagement of the international community!

 

Second, Somaliland and Puntland, have registered much more progress with lesser international backing. So, if peace returns to the Jubbaland, economic progress and socio-economic developments will be achieved. I am in no way belittling the very crucial role a fully-functioning national government plays to speed up economic recovery, growth and transformation, but I am alerting you to the fact that economic development and health and education are not a factor of the typology of government that exists (regional/national), they are a factor of the quality of governance! Be it at national level or regional level.

 

Third, my point was that without security and national healing, any progress be it economic or diplomatic is prone to reversals and is not sustainable. On both fronts, security and national healing, the performance of the national government so far is wanting!

 

Also, if I have to choose between the total absence of government or a government that has political issues with a certain region(still largely under the yoke of Al-Shabaab), but at the same time is making serious progress, I will always choose the latter option, 10 out of 10 times.

I will do the same. But it seems as if you are confusing centralized government with national government! I want Somalia to have a solid and unified national government. But if the current reality is that regional states will continue to exist, then I am of the opinion that what you call a government is the sum total of these regional states! by the way, I am a centralist when it comes to the centralist-Federalist debate. But I think we should move in phases. Right now, the national mood is allergic to centralized system of governance.

 

That there are foreign interests in Somalia undermining the Federal government, be it Ethiopian or Kenyan interests is not a conspiracy theory, unless we consider Siad Barre's hand in Ethiopia's past misery as a fairy tale, we passed on to the next generation.

How many times did I say Ethiopia, Kenya and foreigners are messing Somalia in this forum? So, you are preaching to the converted here. But that our main ailment is domestic and not foreigners meddling is also not a conspiracy theory or my flimsy concoction! So, tell me how we can sort out our mess, while we stand against foreigners at the same time. I will follow you.

 

I trust this government, I don't trust what's happening in Kismayo, that's my position.

I trust the intention of the national government too. I DON'T trust its competency to deal with the issues at hand. I don't trust what is happening in Kismaayo, but I don't think trust should be an issue in this matter. I want solutions. And I proposed one. President Hassan must accept the reality that is called Jubbaland and Ahmed Madoobe and his henchmen must adhere to the national constitution and give the national government the respect and the role it deserves. ONLY then, will we be able to stand up to Kenyan meddling. A house divided...

 

Oodweyne,

 

adiga Somalia hawlaheeda talo lagaa waydiin maayo oo waan is ognahaye, Burco, Oodweyne, Xaaji Saalax iyo Maqaayada Inanta side lagu yahay? Soow roobkii ma di'in? Bahashii Somaliland aheyd se soow ma dhaqaaqin oo ma duulin? :D

[Alpha Blondy]

the hugo EGO of AT..... leaves much to the imagination.

[Abtigiis]

^ It would help this discussion if eland bulls, who do part time trolling part time masturbating with teen peers, keep away from gatecrashing into the duel of grown-up men with cotton tuft hair! :D

 

Otherwise, Alpha, how is Ambassador and Hargeisa? You can't complain. At least your skin is made for Africa. You can't tell me you got a tan since you left the barren cold Island - Albion. :D

[Alpha Blondy]

AT,

 

marka hore, iga guddoon salan sida saxansaxo roobeed uu udgoon. bacda salan, inaadeero, waxaan kuu leeyahay...soo xaaladu dhag maha dee? you grown-up men with your cotton tuft hair! are pathetic......i read these silly exchanges with discomfort, ruunti. they don't even make sense. its like y'all are writing random nonsense and all because y'all can...somaha? write your saucy love stories, inaar. that's where your real talents lie.

 

all is good. Hargeisa is okay. life is good, too. i saw your driver sometime back and waan ku xamanaay. ninka la soo hadaal, inaar, waa kuu sidee, dee....

[Alpha Blondy]

Oodweyne;952792 wrote:

 

PS:

Don't you just hate to come across a good argument whereby all you wanted to say have already being said by others and there is not even a one line of argument that is left to say..

story of my life, inaar.

 

in such a situation, its best to remain silent, somaha?

[Abtigiis]

Alpha, waa khayr saaxiib! Ninkaas waan ku ceebeeys nahay; maanta ama bari ayaan la soo hadli doonaa. Ninyahow hawlaha aduunkaa iska badan oo wax kasta ku iloowsiin!

 

Sida kale waa maqlay inaad gabdho badan uniform ka May aydhiin ( May 18) u tooshay doorkan!

[Chimera]

Abtigiis;952916 wrote:

Chimera, you are equally if not more disingenuous because you are putting words into my mouth. No where in this debate did I imply that health, education and economic developments will not benefit ordinary Somalis.

I got that impression when you picked the 'reclaiming of the airspace' point I made and ignored the rest, because those other points are and will affect(ing) Somalis in a positive way.

 

Of course, your assertion that progress in these key areas will come or have came from donor money (international) is erroneous and not supported by evidence.

One example, the UK:

 

- Functioning health facilities supported by UKaid increased from 15 to 60

 

- Proportion of under-five children fully vaccinated increased from 45% to 65%

 

- Use of contraception increased from 1% to 10%

 

- At least 45,000 sustainable jobs created, of which 15,000 will be for women

 

- £6 million in private investments mobilised, and the business environment improved through

infrastructure projects

 

- 16 districts supported to expand access to basic services, and the number of people accessing security and justice increased by 50%

 

- 500,000 people a year provided with basic humanitarian assistance

 

--- UKGov

 

That is real progress, and through donor money.

 

First, Somalia has enough resources, which if marshaled responsibly, can transform its people. Primarily, it needs peace and the creation of an enabling environment for growth and investment, over and above donor money.

Oh, don't entice me with what Somalia is capable off, or I'll find myself in a perpetual state of daydreaming, and the wax-fahan crew would protest.

 

But I do not dispute international support will help, although no major changes from the international donors really happened after the formation of the Federal Government.

We are discussing the Federal government as if this is its second term, its only been in power for less than a year. However the absolute vital recognition of the Somali government for the first time in decades is a serious game-changer, and now we are in a period where the government is signing deals and attending conventions for reconstruction and development funds.

 

Only when those have been green-lit and spend for the benefit of the average Farah or Halimo in a transparent manner can we say whether the government or international donors put their money where their mouth was.

 

99% of donor money is still channeled through humanitarian and development non-governmental agencies!

Are you really surprised by that after the decades of shameless tuugnimo eminating from Villa Somalia? This Federal Government did not start with a clean slate in their eyes, it had to contend with the fact that the highest offices and the whole Somali political scene in the country was utterly tarnished by the corruption of previous administrations.

 

Through reforms and other measures it has managed to regain the trust of donors, and now they are waiting in line to support the government.

 

So, I do not know why you imply the little progress in Mogadishu has to do with the current government. Security improvements -largely due to international support - allowed for Somalis to invest in their country and if you are giving that credit to Hassan Sheikh, so be it.

Maintaining security and progress is just as important as establishing security and progress. The Federal government is improving and expanding upon the work of previous admins, as a national government should, Somalia is more important than any single administration.

 

I would have thought Sheikh Sharif laid the foundations for the serious engagement of the international community!

Truthfully Sheikh Sharif was going nowhere during his period with Nur, but he was lucky to have two Prime-ministers that were both competent and skilled managers to take vital steps forward.

 

Second, Somaliland and Puntland, have registered much more progress with lesser international backing.

Actually the EU, UK and US support in terms of development for these regions is absolutely vital, and contributes in major way to their progress. However neither Somaliland nor Puntland can match the capabilities of a national government recognized by the world and with access to funds that could transform those regions. In fact all of their heavy infrastructure, be it roads or deepsea ports date back to the previous central governments.

 

So, if peace returns to the Jubbaland, economic progress and socio-economic developments will be achieved.

It would be erroneous to assume that Jubbaland can immediately be compared to regions like Somaliland or Puntland, the latter are decades old and went through a lot to get to where they are today. Do the people of the Jubbas have another decade or two to spare before actual concrete development is ushered in? You need the Federal government for that, and having your regional president ignoring that same entity is not wise.

 

I am in no way belittling the very crucial role a fully-functioning national government plays to speed up economic recovery, growth and transformation, but I am alerting you to the fact that economic development and health and education are not a factor of the typology of government that exists (regional/national), they are a factor of the quality of governance! Be it at national level or regional level.

I agree to a certain extent.

 

Third, my point was that without security and national healing, any progress be it economic or diplomatic is prone to reversals and is not sustainable.

Absolutely!