The African Diaspora in the Indian Ocean World

[Mad_Mullah]

War Cajeeeb! Somalis now begging to be the descendants of slaves so they can interact with their brethren on World Star Hip Hop. Where is your pride saaxib?

 

Somalis kidnapped/captured Bantus/Habashis and sold them on to the Middle East/Asia.

[Safferz]

Alpha Blondy;945752 wrote:

iska daa our resident

SUPER WOMAN

........she's intellectually flawless........ and makes an excellent breakfast while spearheading 'third-world' issues.......EXCELLENT! all in a days work for Saffz but for the rest of 'us' mere morals, we live in the hope of being graced with her one-womanism conscious efforts.

 

Saffz....this hees is for you...... ee sida uula soco.......

 

Alpha B.

lool Alpha, you didn't call me a pseudo-intellectual I'm even willing to overlook the misogyny in your post as well as a poor song choice because I'm that touched by this.

[Alpha Blondy]

^ touched by Alpha B, who would've thought that, ma istidhi?

 

 

 

what do you know about 80's classics, horta? :cool:

[Safferz]

^^ THAT is a song

[GaraadMon]

Mad_Mullah;945756 wrote:

War Cajeeeb! Somalis now begging to be the descendants of slaves so they can interact with their brethren on World Star Hip Hop. Where is your pride saaxib?

 

Somalis kidnapped/captured Bantus/Habashis and sold them on to the Middle East/Asia.

Who said anything about being descendants of slaves? I'm pretty sure the all of this thread's participants are one or two generations removed from Somalia making that case unlikely.

 

Why are some of you confusing the likelihood of the slave trade having some adverse effect on Somalis, with mass enslavement?

[Chimera]

Safferz;945733 wrote:

That is false,

Not at all, consider this, in East Africa there were four major polities, the Ethiopians, the Swahilis, the Sudanese and the Somalis. The Ethiopians had no impact on the Swahili coast, the Somalis did. The Swahilis had no impact on the Ethiopian highlands, the Somalis did. The Sudanese had no impact on the Indian Ocean sultanates and states, the Somalis did. No Ethiopian school of thought has followers in Indonesia, the Somalis do. No medieval Sudanese kingdom imported cannons and firearms, the Somalis did. None of these groups had a trade-network as extensive as ours.

 

If you deleted Somalis from East African history, there would be a massive change across the region, while the same cannot be said of any of the other groups. The religious difference, and the different location of entire ethnic groups alone are more than enough to back my statement that Somalis were the link that tied together an entire geographic region, and impacted the region the most.

 

and your entire post is bordering on the fantastic.

This is amusing, for your information there was a time somewhere in 2007, when I created and cleaned up all the Somali wikipedia articles from the vomit of Pan-Ethiopianists, and white-supremacists. I spend much time in Europe's biggest library i.e the British Library going through hundreds of books, and every single claim I made in my post can be backed with a source. It's really mind-boggling to encounter self-underestimation amongst Somalis, even intelligent ones, when there is so much materialistic evidence to corroborate "the so-called fantastic".

 

It has become tradition among the interlopers commenting on my posts to create an impression that I'm out of this world because of their own personal myopia or ignorance. I didn't expect such lazy debating skills from you. If there is something you believe is false, then point it out more clearly and you'll get a proper source.

 

Somalis were certainly not a powerless people and maintained many important states as well as were active players in the Indian Ocean and Red Sea trade networks, but exaggeration is not helpful.

There is absolutely no exaggeration to my statements, unless you want to change historical sources on the paramount status of Somali cities such as Mogadishu and Zeila.

 

Reminds me of the "we were all kings and queens of Egypt" stuff you hear from black nationalists in the US.

Rubbish, I'm not claiming someone's else history, this is Somali history.

 

Furthermore the key port cities during the height of these trades were under the administration of the Ottomans, Zanzibaris, Omanis, etc.

Why am I not surprised, let's break down the Golden Ages of each of these Somali cities:

 

Mogadishu - 11th - 16th centuries. No Omani, Zanzibari or Ottoman controlled it. It were the Mogadishans, Ajuurans and Gobroons that held sway over it. Even in the 19th century during the so-called Zanzibar suzerainty:

 

However, Zanzibari involvement remained nominal, and the Zanzibari ruler had to pay tribute to the powerful sultan of the Geledi, whose lands lay to the west of the city (Alpers). Thus, Mogadishu's affairs remained in local hands. -- Encyclopedia of African History - Volume 2 - Page 990

 

Zeila - 13th - 16th centuries. No Omani, Zanzibari or Ottoman controlled it. It were the Kingdoms of Ifat and Adal that ruled this important city, through which most of the trade in the Northern and western Horn passed through. Only after the collapse of Adal did the local rulers find logic in paying tribute to the Ottomans for protection, while maintaining full control of the city. No Ottoman administrator or army set foot there during that time, the decade of Khedive occupation is hardly a dent on the centuries of independence.

 

The Portuguese also brutally sacked Somali towns, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've read diary entries from the Portuguese during this period talking about how they were cutting off limbs to take women's jewelry. I don't have time to go through your post line by line but there are many issues here.

And Somalis brutally sacked Portuguese colonies in East Africa, what's your point. This is war. The fact remains, the Portuguese never held those cities, and in Mogadishu they were repulsed or scared away at several occasions.

 

You're missing the point, and I've explained earlier in the thread the historical ambiguity of the terms Ethiopian/Habashi. Your words in quotes are Wadani's, not mine. I suggest you read more about the

nomenclature "Ethiopia"

for the historical context I'm referring to, which since antiquity (and most notably in the Bible) has signified much more than what has ever been the boundaries of an Ethiopian state.

The nomenclature Ethiopia once covered all of Africa, once referenced only Sudan, today it denotes our neighbour. The region of Greater Somalia however for the majority of its history was known by distinct names, a single Arab geographer sitting in the libraries of Baghdad cannot change that with a single reference to region as "Al-Habash", more called it Bilad Al-Barbar.

 

Interesting definition for slavery, by your definition most slave trades including the Trans-Atlantic slave trade were not really "slavery" either since wars between West African states accounted for many of the captives.

 

Uncomparable, these West African states exported hundreds of thousands of slaves and this was their main source of income. In the East African context there was no power that hunted and defeated Somalis enmasse and then sold their women and children to foreign lands. What we do have is historical episodes in the form of Somali-Abyssinian wars where they would practice such measures, but never on a massive scale, and all historical evidence points to the Somalis doing it at a greater frequency on other groups than vice-versa.

 

Slavery in Somalia is hardly a well researched topic, I'm quite familiar with the literature and as I said, there is very little out there and much work left to be done. Most slaves were Oromo and Bantu-speaking peoples from the interior, that we know, but it is absurd to believe that some Somalis were not caught up in the trade as well, which is all I've said in this thread after Wadani's knee-jerk response to one image from Iran (the annotations are not mine, by the way, but taken from the exhibit's curators). It is too bad you are unable to reconcile this with your mythology.

Wow, while I keep providing sources, all you have is an exhibit in Iran, whose curators might not even know the difference between Swahili or Somali, but I should take them as an authority on the history of the region, when there are far more reliable sources and institutions available?

[GaroweGal]

Safferz-- The assertion that Somalis were enslaved as people is fallacy and far from any available emperical evidence. Yes, I could agree that some Somalis may have been captured or taken as prisoners in one of the many conflicts that Somalis were involved in with our European or African adversaries over the last 2-3 centuries, however that alone can hardly classify the ethnic Somali race as being enslaved neither can it be construed to constitute the image that "enslavement" conjures up in most people's rational mind. I could also agree that the bantu people who live in the riverine regions of southern Somali (and are considered as citizens of Somalia) have indeed been brought to Somalia as slaves, and I personally met some of them who have retained their zigua language and culture (they are referred often to as mushunguli). After the collapse of the Somali state in1991, some of them were successfully resettled in Tanzania, as this was their historical homeland.

[Alpha Blondy]

Safferz;945761 wrote:

^^ THAT is a song

 

i've performed that on karaoke before.....80's nights at scala club, kings cross.....for those who know....

 

- the thread has been ruined with too much intellectualism. i'm out. uff!

[Chimera]

ElPunto;945735 wrote:

^Notwithstanding Chimera's propensity to inflate Somalis' past achievements.

I have the book- catalogue of the old Garesa Museum in my possession, nothing inflated here. In-fact pre-2007 I used to underestimate Somali history in a similar manner, but boy was I wrong!

[Alpha Blondy]

ElPunto;945735 wrote:

^Notwithstanding Chimera's propensity to inflate Somalis' past achievements

 

statement of the WEEK. +1000

[Chimera]

Are the gloves off again ya Alphy? Project "Ultimate Smackdown" will be re-instated, ii si suug,

[Alpha Blondy]

^ adamsooow, inaar,

 

i think you'll find this 'controversial' post of Al's hasn't affected our strong paradigm of virtue. i think, you'll also find, the post is within the confines of the GOLDEN RULEs of these boards...ee sida uula soco, aboowe, nooh.

[Safferz]

GaroweGal;945764 wrote:

Safferz-- The assertion that Somalis were enslaved as people is fallacy and far from any available emperical evidence.

I don't know who or what you're responding to, because I never made that assertion.

 

Chimera;945763 wrote:

This is amusing, for your information there was a time somewhere in 2007, when I created and cleaned up all the Somali wikipedia articles from the vomit of Pan-Ethiopianists, and white-supremacists. I spend much time in Europe's biggest library i.e the British Library going through hundreds of books, and every single claim I made in my post can be backed with a source. It's really mind-boggling to encounter self-underestimation amongst Somalis, even intelligent ones, when there is so much materialistic evidence to corroborate "the so-called fantastic".

 

It has become tradition among the interlopers commenting on my posts to create an impression that I'm out of this world because of their own personal myopia or ignorance. I didn't expect such lazy debating skills from you. If there is something you believe is false, then point it out more clearly and you'll get a proper source.

Chimera;945763 wrote:

Wow, while I keep providing sources,

all you have is an exhibit in Iran,

whose curators might not even know the difference between Swahili or Somali, but I should take them as an authority on the history of the region, when there are far more reliable sources and institutions available?

Great, so you do research and update Wikipedia articles. I'm amused by the arrogance with which you assume you are the only one here who has done archival work and extensive reading on East African history, and you should keep in mind that this is an anonymous internet forum and you know nothing about who posts here or what they do for a living.

 

If you haven't noticed already, I'm purposely not engaging with your posts - over nationalist to the point of historical erasures, conflated historical periodization, outright falsehoods and yes, fantastic accounts - because I neither have the time nor the energy for it. Simply saying things to come off as knowing and making your speculation definitive is not history, though I'm sure it is great material for a historical fantasy novel.

[Chimera]

Safferz;945782 wrote:

Great, so you do research and update Wikipedia articles.

Origins of my initial interest! When you have groups distorting your history, it becomes a great motivator.

 

I'm amused by the arrogance with which you assume you are the only one here who has done archival work and extensive reading on East African history,

Very strange reply, I only highlighted where my posts originate from, I never said "I know more than anyone else".

 

and you should keep in mind that this is an anonymous internet forum and you know nothing about who posts here or what they do for a living.

Shaking my head.

 

If you haven't noticed already, I'm purposely not engaging with your posts

It matters not, the material still stands, anyone that's interested only has to copy any of my paraphrased sentences therein and they will find the original sources.

 

- over nationalist to the point of historical erasures, conflated historical periodization, outright falsehoods and yes, fantastic accounts - because I neither have the time nor the energy for it. Simply saying things to come off as knowing and making your speculation definitive is not history, though I'm sure it is great material for a historical fantasy novel.

What a cop out.

[Alpha Blondy]

Safferz;945782 wrote:

........you should keep in mind that this is an anonymous internet forum and you know nothing about who posts here or what they do for a living.

 

+1

 

the masses who populate these boards refuse to believe that i'm a Pulitzer prize winning documentary maker.

 

i'm glad you understand, though. thanks Saffz.