Historicizing Tribe

[Safferz]

Wadani;941691 wrote:

The answer to ur question in a nutshell I believe is the deepseated mistrust which took root among the clans post civil war. There can be restition of trust until there is wholesale restitution of rights, first and foremost among these being the right of all victim groups to a sincere apology and acceptance of guilt by those responsible. Somalis will remain insular and continue to seek refuge and solace in their clans until a legitimate national reconciliation takes place. If that happens waa la bogson doonaa dawladna waa loo bislaaan. It sounds simplistic but I think its our only hope.

I completely agree. The civil war meant the destruction of both the state *and* the philosophical faith Somalis had in being a subject and citizen, which in turn led to Somalis turning to the most base political unit they could trust for their collective welfare and security, the clan. It will take a lot of work, but I am not a pessimist who believes it is impossible for Somalis to imagine new political possibilities and think outside of the clan framework.

[Wadani]

Safferz;941693 wrote:

I completely agree. The civil war meant the destruction of both the state *and* the philosophical faith Somalis had in being a subject and citizen, which in turn led to Somalis turning to the most base political unit they could trust for their collective welfare and security, the clan. It will take a lot of work, but I am not a pessimist who believes it is impossible for Somalis to imagine new political possibilities and think outside of the clan framework.

I sincerely hope ur right Safferz, our collective futures depend on it.

[Alpha Blondy]

interesting convo. sometime not commenting is good. thanks y'all.

[Safferz]

Alpha Blondy;942157 wrote:

interesting convo. sometime not commenting is good. thanks y'all.

I missed this somehow, a serious, non-trolly comment from Alpha. Alright then, waan ku saamaxay inaar

[Tallaabo]

Alpha Blondy;942157 wrote:

interesting convo. sometime not commenting is good. thanks y'all.

Waaryaa get the hell out of here:mad: This place is the refuge for the intellectual giants like me from the sea of troll that is SOL.

[Haatu]

Wadani;941691 wrote:

The answer to ur question in a nutshell I believe is when the deepseated mistrust took root among the clans post civil war. There can be no restoration of trust until there is wholesale restitution of rights, first and foremost among these being the right of all victim groups to a

sincere apology and acceptance of guilt by those responsible.

Somalis will remain insular and continue to seek refuge and solace in their clans until a legitimate national reconciliation takes place. If that happens waa la bogson doonaa dawladna waa loo bislaaan. It sounds simplistic but I think its our only hope.

But that's the question behind this whole argument, just who should give the apology?

[Safferz]

Haatu;942329 wrote:

But that's the question behind this whole argument, just who should give the apology?

I wonder if something modeled after South Africa's truth and reconciliation committees after apartheid could work for us... staged public hearings to bear witness to the various atrocities experienced by Somalis (something that cut across clan and affected everyone in different ways), and grant amnesty to those who publicly admit to their crimes. The emphasis would be national reconciliation and healing by confronting our past, rather than prosecution. Just a thought.

[Wadani]

Haatu;942329 wrote:

But that's the question behind this whole argument, just who should give the apology?

If we are sincere, all clans will end up both giving and receiving apologies. The exception being the minority groups, whose forgiveness will be sought without any need for reciprocity.

[Wadani]

Safferz;942537 wrote:

I wonder if something modeled after South Africa's truth and reconciliation committees after apartheid could work for us... staged public hearings to bear witness to the various atrocities experienced by Somalis (something that cut across clan and affected everyone in different ways), and grant amnesty to those who publicly admit to their crimes. The emphasis would be national reconciliation and healing by confronting our past, rather than prosecution. Just a thought.

Yes, good idea. I think we have a lot to learn from both South Africa and Rwanda.

[Safferz]

Wadani;942541 wrote:

Yes, good idea. I think we have a lot to learn from both South Africa and Rwanda.

Rwanda is a bit iffy. They set up the Gacaca courts as a transitional justice system, but I read a paper recently arguing that in practice it's just been a way to throw Hutu people in prison with very little evidence and not allowing them to defend themselves.

[Wadani]

Safferz;942545 wrote:

Rwanda is a bit iffy. They set up the Gacaca courts as a transitional justice system, but I read a paper recently arguing that in practice it's just been a way to throw Hutu people in prison with very little evidence and not allowing them to defend themselves.

lol,I had no idea. That's pretty messed up. All I know is the country is now peaceful and has one of the fastest growing economies on the continent. It has also been successful in significantly reducing the rate of HIV infections within the last decade.

[SomaliPhilosopher]

I think an apology in its traditional form should be be done- providing geel to the victims. none of this top down political foreign based reconciliation "techniques"

[Wadani]

SomaliPhilosopher;942581 wrote:

I think an apology in its traditional form should be be done- providing geel to the victims. none of this top down political foreign based reconciliation "techniques"

Yes, our traditional system of xaal-marin (compensation) and Mag-dhow (reperations) is very effective in healing wounds. But how would this be possible on such a grand national scale? The logistics of such an undertaking would be a nightmare.

[Haatu]

I think we should bring it down to an individual level if possible. Offenders should seek forgiveness from the victims in person if possible.

[Wadani]

Haatu;942589 wrote:

I think we should bring it down to an individual level if possible. Offenders should seek forgiveness from the victims in person if possible.

Which is impossible in the vast majority of cases. This is only possible with the looted property crisis in xamar. How would the MJ's in Mudug confront the men who poisened their wells in the 80's for example? And how would SNM civilians confront those who were indiscriminately shelling and bombing their cities? The people behind such atrocities are faceless, and will never be brought to justice. Their leaders on the other hand....