Radical Feminism in the Birthplace of the Arab Spring

[Safferz]

Wadani;936511 wrote:

Yes they are quite racist with their euro-centric standards for freedom and progressiveness. As for their tactics, it's nothing but reactionary shock tactics that ultimately serve a purpose opposite to their objectives. It's akin to al-shabaab's draconian methods meant to usher in an era of Islamic piety paradoxically leading to a sizable growth in Somali secularists. It's basic physics, the harder u swing the pundulum in one direction the further it will swing in the opposite direction.

Right, and unfortunately it's a common problem with white feminists and their treatment of women of colour (including Muslim women) -- the old colonial "white saviour" mentality to "save" non-white women. It obscures the activism already happening within these communities by assuming women are passive, silent and oppressed, and it fails to take social and historical context into account for an analysis of power and patriarchy by assuming gender oppression operates the same way and in the same form(s) as it does in Western societies. I also have to be specific and say *white women* because even "Western feminism" is not a monolith -- when Betty Friedan wrote 50 years ago about "the problem with no name" and the image of the unhappy and economically dependent suburban housewife helped launch second wave feminism, black women started to challenge its implicit whiteness and talk about how it was black women's labour (as maids, nannies, etc) in the household that enabled many white women to be "homemakers."

 

That said, I don't agree with anything else you've said here, Wadani. Feminism is really only an umbrella term for diverse (and often conflicting) movements, organizations and modes of thinking about gender equity, and its history is characterized by critical self-reflection and an awareness of its heterogeneity. No one organization defines what feminism is or what a feminist should be or should look like, and Femen has seen an even bigger backlash from other feminists, including Muslim feminists.

[Safferz]

Wadani;936524 wrote:

I wouldn't go as far as making takfir on them, but there is no denying that many of the tenents of feminism (in its western form) are un-islamic.

What are the tenets of feminism?

[Wadani]

Safferz;936526 wrote:

Right, and unfortunately it's a common problem with white feminists and their treatment of women of colour (including Muslim women) -- the old colonial "white saviour" mentality to "save" non-white women. It obscures the activism already happening within these communities by assuming women are passive, silent and oppressed, and it fails to take social and historical context into account for an analysis of power and patriarchy by assuming gender oppression operates the same way and in the same form(s) as it does in Western societies. I also have to be specific and say *white women* because even "Western feminism" is not a monolith -- when Betty Friedan wrote 50 years ago about "the problem with no name" and the image of the unhappy and economically dependent suburban housewife helped launch second wave feminism, black women started to challenge its implicit whiteness and talk about how it was black women's labour (as maids, nannies, etc) in the household that enabled many white women to be "homemakers."

 

That said, I don't agree with anything else you've said here, Wadani. Feminism is really only an umbrella term for diverse (and often conflicting) movements, organizations and modes of thinking about gender equity, and its history is characterized by critical self-reflection and an awareness of its heterogeneity. No one organization defines what feminism is or what a feminist should be or should look like, and Femen has seen an even bigger backlash from other feminists, including

Muslim feminists

.

I agree with a lot of what u said. But theres no way around the fact that Islam and the other two Abrahamic faiths (in the form true to their scriptures) are against the equality of men and women when it comes to their roles and their rights. Islam only recognizes their inherent equality as human beings and their spritiual equality. Am I wrong?

[Wadani]

Safferz;936530 wrote:

What are the tenets of feminism?

I haven't undertaken an academic study of feminism.

 

But from the little I know it seeks to create social, political and economic equality between men and women. Also, it views the differences between the two sexes through a social constructionist lens and does not give much credence to the differences rooted in biology.

[Safferz]

Wadani;936533 wrote:

I agree with a lot of what u said. But theres no way around the fact that Islam and the other two Abrahamic faiths (in the form true to their scriptures) are against the equality of men and women when it comes to their roles and their rights. Islam only recognizes their inherent equality as human beings and their spritiual equality. Am I wrong?

Islam is not a monolith either, so it's not that black and white -- in the same way religion can be interpreted to curtail women's rights by some people and in some places, it can be read as liberatory as well.

[Wadani]

Safferz;936539 wrote:

Islam is not a monolith either, so it's not that black and white -- in the same way religion can be interpreted to curtail women's rights by some people and in some places, it can be read as liberatory as well.

The Quran is explicit when it says 'Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded.' (Surah Al-Nisaa, verse 34). Only one who is ambivalent about their relationship with Islam will try to rationalize or explain away such an explicit text. Yes, how they are in charge and how they have been made to excel woman may be subject to interpretation....but their being placed above woman by Allah cannot, or else one just doesn't believe in the Quran. Miyaanay ahayn dee walaal

[Safferz]

Wadani;936535 wrote:

I haven't undertaken an academic study of feminism.

 

But from the little I know it seeks to create social, political and economic equality between men and women. Also, it views the differences between the two sexes through a social constructionist lens and does not give much credence to the differences rooted in biology.

I asked because I don't believe feminism can be so easily defined, and the more I study histories and theories of feminism (even the word "feminist" is contentious among some theorists, "womanist" is used by some African American women who feel feminism is not inclusive enough for them), the more difficult and complex it becomes. So you certainly can't reduce it to tenets. But I think you're right to say that what they all have in common is political organizing and thinking around questions of women's equality (how "equality" is defined differs), and that most agree that gender is socially constructed.

[Wadani]

Safferz;936544 wrote:

I asked because I don't believe feminism can be so easily defined, and the more I study histories and theories of feminism (even the word "feminist" is contentious among some theorists, "womanist" is used by some African American women who feel feminism is not inclusive enough for them), the more difficult and complex it becomes. So you certainly can't reduce it to tenets. But I think you're right to say that what they all have in common is political organizing and thinking around questions of women's equality (how "equality" is defined differs), and that most agree that gender is socially constructed.

I agree.

[Safferz]

Wadani;936543 wrote:

The Quran is explicit when it says 'Men are

in charge of women

, because Allah hath made the

one of them to excel the other

, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So

good women are the obedient

, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded.' (Surah Al-Nisaa, verse 34). Only one who is ambivalent about their relationship with Islam will try to rationalize or explain away such an explicit text. Yes, how they are in charge and how they have been made to excel woman may be subject to interpretation....but their being placed above woman by Allah cannot, or else one just doesn't believe in the Quran. Miyaanay ahayn dee walaal

That's a poor translation and proves my point, so here is Yusuf Ali's translation: "men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other and because they support them from their means. Therefore righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. It takes intentional, out of context distortions of the Arabic words qawwamun, qanitat and nushuz to interpret this verse as Allah saying men are superior to women and that they are "in charge" of women, and that "obedience" here means to the husband. Forgetting the verse that says men and women are appointed each other's awliyah (mutual protectors)?

 

Anyway I think Quranic exegesis is beyond the discussion or anyone here's expertise, but my point is that much of what Muslims take for granted about women's rights is in fact cultural or derived from particular readings and interpretations of religious texts.

[Wadani]

I prefer Maramduke Pickthall's translation and feel it's closer to the original Arabic. Anyway, in real life im not the neandrathal you've probably pictured me to be. I just like taking positions and having them challenged, and would even want my sisters and daughters to be closet feminists (a form in line with Islam) so no man can take advantage of them hahaa.

 

But I think u can agree that this virulent brand of feminism that is so widespread in the West has done a number on their societies. Family break-up, teen pregnancy, hyper sexualization and promiscuity, abortion on demand, confused, infantile (think 30 year olds and PS3) and role-less men, ironically unfulfilled feminist career women etc etc.

[Wadani]

.

[Safferz]

Wadani;936559 wrote:

I prefer Maramduke Pickthall's translation and feel it's closer to the original Arabic. Anyway, in real life im not the neandrathal you've probably pictured me to be. I just like taking positions and having them challenged, and would even want my sisters and daughters to be closet feminists (a form in line with Islam) so no man can take advantage of them hahaa.

lol I don't think you're a neanderthal at all, I think you're quite intelligent and could get beyond the "feminazi" stuff if I pushed you a little bit

[Wadani]

Safferz;936564 wrote:

lol I don't think you're a neanderthal at all, I think you're quite intelligent and could get beyond the "feminazi" stuff if I pushed you a little bit

Thanks....and u never know

[AfricaOwn]

Safferz;936416 wrote:

But.... violence against women, sexism, etc are all very real issues that need to be dealt with.

All sensible Men and Women can agree to that. What's a feminist anyways? Can men be feminists as well? What are some examples of gender inequality for SOL posters to think about?

[SomaliPhilosopher]

So when is the wedding Wadani and Safferz?