Arms Embargo should only be Lifted When Government Creates Viable National Army, Recruited from All

[SomaliPhilosopher]

Lifting the arms embargo is key for the Somali government to gain internal sovereignty and to be considered the law of the land.

[Baashi]

Rahima, qallanjo there is nothing wrong in having an opinion on the current events in Somalia. NG seems to be in the view that only active partisans with clannish leanings should partake in and discuss current events in Somalia. He excludes you and all concerned folks outside of this group of clannish nomads from having a mere opinion on a topic of national significance.

 

You see he’s been preaching this catchy phrase “clan is everything” for a while and looks like he’s convinced himself quite literally that clan IS everything to everyone and that there are no exceptions In NG’s understanding of all things Somali there are no impartial or neutral nomads when it comes to these types of discussion. You came along and shared your two cents on the subject at hand and look what happen! He came out swinging!

 

I think you and many nomads in SOL will readily acknowledge that clan is part and parcel of Somali culture. Clan is the basis of political organization and clannish sensibilities color political views of ordinary nomads. Former military government retained power through clan machinations. Those who opposed that government used clan grievances to recruit clan loyalist. The northern fiefdoms succeeded in establishing recovery areas by rallying certain clans. All true. No informed and rational person would object to these facts. However clan is not everything to everyone. It may be everything to NG but certainly not to Rahima.

 

The topic at hand is whether lifting of arms embargo on Somalia is appropriate at this time given the political and security situation of the country at large. You, Xiin and I all agree now is not the time for lifting of arms embargo. Our reasons may differ but we agree on the fundamental premise of the article and that is this government need to put its ducks in a row first.

 

If it is sovereignty that’s keeping the president awake at night he needs to roll up his sleeves and get to work in figuring out ways and means to replace ten thousand strong (impartial) AMISOM soldiers. Replacing AMISOM soldiers will take time. Recruits must be selected, screened and trained. Bases must be reclaimed and renovated. Once the recruits (officers as well) that are representative of the country are trained and military basis are established then government can take the next logistical step and equip them with weapons.

[Rahima]

Mario B;919441 wrote:

Isn't this the problem? a geel jire and a Phd holder sharing the same world view. Shouldn't we be expecting the later to be an 'enlightened man/woman' who sees the nuanced part of existence and believes that reality isn't black and white!

Bingo Mario- my point exactly. We really are in a sad state of affairs if our 'PhD holders' have the same thinking as our illiterate countrymen/women.

 

NG- there is a clear difference between acknowledging that some of our people are only concerned with the interests of their clan and actually defending it and/or voicing that opinion yourself. I don't believe any Somali person who has been awake for the last 20 years will deny that there are suspicions and fears (not sure how it can be genuine on your couch in the West) but we should be focused on the treatment of it not exacerbating the symptoms. My hat is firmly placed but I'm just glad that the people back home are not so concerned with clan.

 

Baashi- I've obviously missed a bit in my absence . I'd love to see my people put somalinimo ahead of clan, inshallah one day soon.

[NGONGE]

Rahima;919635 wrote:

Bingo Mario- my point exactly. We really are in a sad state of affairs if our 'PhD holders' have the same thinking as our illiterate countrymen/women.

 

NG- there is a clear difference between acknowledging that some of our people are only concerned with the interests of their clan and actually defending it and/or voicing that opinion yourself. I don't believe any Somali person who has been awake for the last 20 years will deny that there are suspicions and fears (not sure how it can be genuine on your couch in the West) but we should be focused on the treatment of it not exacerbating the symptoms. My hat is firmly placed but

I'm just glad that the people back home are not so concerned with clan.

Baashi- I've obviously missed a bit in my absence

. I'd love to see my people put somalinimo ahead of clan, inshallah one day soon.

The people that invented the 4.5 system are not concerned with clan? Those that created the federal system alongside clan lines are not concerned with clan? Those that are protesting the president's meddling in the Kismaayo are not concerned with clan? Those that come out in open demonstrations every time they feel their clan is threatened are not concerned with clan? The examples are endless.

 

As for your talk of treatment or exacerbating of symptoms, in both cases you will first have to acknowledge the existence of a disease Rahima. Somalia’s main problem (the disease if you will) today is one of clan conflict (I don’t know how many times I could repeat the same line). The only treatment is fairness to all and acknowledgment of all complaints. You will never manage to apply this treatment if you refuse to acknowledge the clan conflict and rather choose to blame it on opportunists or shady politicians. Clan is the refuge of ALL Somalis. It’s a fact.

 

Baashi is brilliant. He’s forever creating diversions and red herrings!

Again, all this detail that he’s focusing on is irrelevant. The issue on the lifting of the arms embargo is not a hypothetical question that the Somali government is thinking of doing, it is a fact. So all this nonsense about being opposed to this action until or unless the government recruits soldiers or builds big storage spaces is, again, nothing but a red herring. The government is demanding the lifting of the arms embargo which in turn means that the government believes it has the capacity (and support) to cope. The only protest here has been the one about the perception that this government plans to arm one clan. That’s the subject of this thread according to the article posted.

In Somali politics clan is everything. It’s not something I convinced myself with, it’s something that Baashi actually introduced me to but he’s too humble to take the credit.

 

p.s.

The point you all keep missing on the “intellectual v geel jire” argument is that no such difference exists when it comes to the truth. They both agree that the sun is bright but the difference is that the geel jire may stop at that and the intellectual may share his knowledge and understanding about the reasons for the brightness of the sun. You don’t have to distance yourself from the truth just because an ignorant person happens to also admit it. That’s just pointless snobbery. Wax fahma.

[N.O.R.F]

Baashi,

 

I understand what you’re saying but training needs equipment and bases need to be equipped to train. Logic dictates that the embargo will not be fully lifted. Essential equipment for the purposes of establishing security, starting the training and building processes should be made available. Any lifting of the embargo will have stringent conditions attached such as putting AMISOM at the centre of receiving, storing and distributing the equipment.

[Che -Guevara]

I think the embargo should be lifted but the Caseer has a point. We can't move past clan politics without actually addressing it.

[SayidSomal]

^^What is bothering me most is the fact that the 'Casiir' (correct spelling) is neither a geeljire nor a Phd holder - yet he makes the most sense - without all the emotive malarky

 

 

The fault must be in the caano geel - it is casiir from now onwards

[xiinfaniin]

Rahima,

 

Waxaa kaa xanaajiyey waa qabyaalad maca kaamil ixtiraam and taqdiir. hadaysan sidaa ahayn, maxaa ka qaldan in la tilmaamo dhaqanka siyaasadeed oo guryo haysashada ee liqaaye difaacay? (lets face it, xiin didn't say much in this thread other than posting an article. He did however dismembered a political culture that has been prevalent in the south in the other closed thread).

 

Now, NGONGE nasiib darrada haysata waxa weeye , waxbuu iska dhaadiciyey ah in dadkoo dhan ay qabiil fikirki ku shaqeeyaan , ignoring of course xiin opposed many of his clansmen, and prominent leaders at that. A contradiction in NGONGE basic thesis that cannot be explained.

 

Of course there are reasonable arguments presented in this article that transcend qabyaalad, and speak to the political reality on the ground. Alas, sister Rahima sees herself sitting atop of a righteous summit with respect to this issue whilst indeed she has wounded herself by accusing others with afkaar qabaliyah.

 

Without a comprehensive plan to open training bases in all regions, without completing the political reconciliation the roadmap started , lifting the arms embargo would be a mistake for Somalia. Peace is not the absence of war, ya jamaacah. Hassan's election was a great first step, but it didn't end the mistrust among Somali people , and I have not seen a tangible steps to do that from him as of yet.

[NGONGE]

NG, toos ayuu wax o rida saaxib. You posted a thread accusing the government of favouring one clan yet are blind enough to suggest that inaan wax iskaga dhaadiciyey!

 

It's amazing how many people distance themselves from this qabyaalad yet they all support a country built on and based on qabyaalad. Maxaad la wada khashafaysaan dee? War waa caadi, it's the story of almost every Somali. Accept it, aknowledge it and then find a way to deal with it. If you believe Clan X is in the wrong, point it out and bring it out into the open. Rather than this hopeless cat and mouse game where everyone makes accusation but retreats in fear when counter accusations are made their way. Somali will never be fixed any other way, you know.

[Baashi]

N.O.R.F;919662 wrote:

Baashi,

 

I understand what you’re saying but training needs equipment and bases need to be equipped to train. Logic dictates that the embargo will not be fully lifted. Essential equipment for the purposes of establishing security, starting the training and building processes should be made available. Any lifting of the embargo will have stringent conditions attached such as putting AMISOM at the centre of receiving, storing and distributing the equipment.

Sure it does. Yes government does need equipment, training facilities, trainers, and what have you. I am with you on that one Norf.

 

Make no mistake awoowe laakiin at issue is not about facilitating training program for the future national army. Nor is it lifting of arms embargo per se. No. The issue at the heart of this discussion is about the timing. It is also about the prerequisites the governments needs to meet before the ban is lifted. The US and its allies are taking this issue very seriously. That’s why UK is volunteering its military personnel to provide the training which is what Hassan’s administration needs the most in my view.

 

Administration in Mogadishu asserts that it needs to consolidate power into Somali hands and push aside foreign elements be it AMISOM or the IC. I totally sympathize with that argument. Sovereignty requires degree of independency and that’s what Hassan’s government is after. As the legacy of the civil war subsides and peace gains momentum, the Somali state has a good chance to recover and attain its former glory. We are just exhorting the government to do the right thing and prioritize its agenda and avoid issues of a most contentious nature.

 

Deal with security by starting with the local police while at the same time accepting recommendations and assistance provided to them by world powers when it comes to national defense.

 

We can always agree to disagree, NG. Your point that since this government made the decision to demand lifting of the arms embargo, online discussion on the subject should cease and desist is beyond me awoowe.

[xiinfaniin]

NGONGE;919796 wrote:

NG, toos ayuu wax o rida saaxib. You posted a thread accusing the government of favouring one clan yet are blind enough to suggest that inaan wax iskaga dhaadiciyey!

 

It's amazing how many people distance themselves from this qabyaalad yet they all support a country built on and based on qabyaalad. Maxaad la wada khashafaysaan dee? War waa caadi, it's the story of almost every Somali. Accept it, aknowledge it and then find a way to deal with it. If you believe Clan X is in the wrong, point it out and bring it out into the open. Rather than this hopeless cat and mouse game where everyone makes accusation but retreats in fear when counter accusations are made their way. Somali will

never

be fixed any other way, you know.

The article does not accuse the government of Qabyaalad, hasty NGONGE. Usually you sport an excellent comprehension, but I must say here you failed to read the article. The argument is that current government 1) controls Mogadishu , and therefore the only recruits availabel to it is from one AREA, which is populated prominently by one clan. It is therefore fair to say, such recruits would not form an all inclusive national army.

 

I am not being didactic here, but it is not the government favoring one qabiil, it is the political environment in which the government finds it self that does not afford it the luxury to recruit from everywhere ... .

 

You dont usually follow the herd , but in this case you parroted what everyone else was saying which is xiin is speaking from qabiil perspective .

[Mintid Farayar]

 

This is amusing at best. As if anything anyone of us write, including the author(s) of the posted article, will have any effect on the lifting of the Arms Embargo.

 

Somali self-obsession at its best! Wake up people and concentrate on the things that you can influence.

 

 

 

Where it last stood: in the Security Council discussions on this matter, the U.S. was pro-lifting the Embargo, while the British, French, and Argentinians were reluctant. The first three have veto powers over the motion while Argentina doesn't. The Security Council debate will continue through March, so no decision either way for at least a few more weeks.

[xiinfaniin]

^^That is beside the point, Mintid. With all due respect, a lot of things that we advocate for are NOT entirely things we can influence. Including, of course, your holly cause of gaining recognition.

 

So it is rather you who are amusing when you address this issue from that angle. We have advocated for Somalia to attain a permanent, legitimate government, and end the transition. Look back on the discussions that transpired in this fora with respect to that issue...

[Mintid Farayar]

xiinfaniin;919870 wrote:

^^That is beside the point, Mintid. With all due respect, a lot of things that we advocate for are NOT entirely things we can influence. Including, of course, your holly cause of gaining recognition.

 

So it is rather you who are amusing when you address this issue from that angle. We have advocated for Somalia to attain a permanent, legitimate government, and end the transition. Look back on the discussions that transpired in this fora with respect to that issue...

 

But haven't I always stated the same thing for some years now: "The issue of recognition not being determined by Somalis??"

 

But let me leave you with this prediction regarding this 'permanent,legitimate government issue' as you put it: This attempt, too, shall fail, not because of any influence you or I have, but, because like all the previous ones, it's not internally driven!

This can be easily determined by the actions of the main protagonists within the Mogadishu gov't who are, as usual, chasing after foreign cash and resolutions to solve internal problems. Every presidential aspirant talks on and on about Somali reconciliation during his campaign and as soon as he wins the seat, never mentions it again. Instead, it's - "Hey, international community, I'll be coming around with the charity cup, so get ready for my continuous globe-trotting!"

[xiinfaniin]

^^I see your point, Mintid.

 

But Somalia has made a significant progress in terms of political reconciliation. We are closer to statehood than we have ever been in the last twenty years. We just need to do this right, and accept that we need to do baby steps with respect to lifting this embargo. I think we can do it. But we are not going to do it in Liqaye's way

 

 

PS. Baashi, Malika, and Gabbal added value to this thread---i didn't read their input, very sound and watertight arguments , really.