Arms Embargo should only be Lifted When Government Creates Viable National Army, Recruited from All

[Waranle_Warrior]

Well, if the arms embargo is lifted, who said private companies and regional administrations cannot buy weapons (not that they don't buy now) openly. The admnistrations have also the responsiblity of ensuring security in their respected areas while some are actively engaged in war with Alshabaab as we speak.

 

The lifting of this embargo is not a good idea, it will only create more problems at this stage and brings more unnecessary arms in Somalia.

[Mario B]

Mario B;919409 wrote:

I support the partial lifting of the arms embargo. I believe the FG should be allowed to equip itself with light armoured vehicles, body armoured and helmets, communication equipment, night vision technology etc...the time for lifting of embargo on tanks, helicopters and fighter jets is premature given the nature of mistrust.

 

 

 

 

Also the IC should help us in the building of military barracks and military hospitals across the country.

xiinfaniin;922401 wrote:

Partial

easing of the embargo is

not bad

, waa sida keliya oo lagu tijaabin karo qolodaan Xasan madaxda u yahay.

[xiinfaniin]

^^^Yeah xiinfaniin has lifted arms embargo

 

You guys should celebrate ...

[Odey]

Lifting or Not Lifting, that is the Question!.

 

Seriously though we have addressed all the qabil issues, the Warlord issues and the trust issues. I on the other hand have a separate issue to raise. I know this army, I have seen them slowly being built and the "Government's forces" consist of clan militias that have been simply given uniforms in the beginning, but a new crop of soldiers are merging that are trained.

 

Therein lies my problem. If we want an army, we have to build one. We cannot simply start with this rubbish idea of collecting a bunch of clan militia and calling them an army. Those clan militias should be turned into the equivalent of the "National Guard" with the jurisdiction to guard that state and that state alone against whatever that comes that is beyond the police. The state Governor should have the authority over them.

 

When considering the Army the argument should first be" What is their jurisdiction, how do they work, when can they bear arms". after answering these questions and defining their roles and jurisdictions clearly then we can start recruiting for these positions and recruit well. We must have the criteria prepared first for recruitment. We then train them, we teach them the responsibility of a soldier to his/ her Country. We introduce Citizenship to them and ensure they are loyal to the "Nation" and "constitution" not the Leader. If we address these underlying issues we build an army that has a strong moral compass and we will not have a repeat of the last 50 years of the Somali National Army where they can be ordered to flatten an entire city or province and they wouldn't question it.

 

The lifting of the Arms embargo is not crucial, these issues above are more important. We must clean up our own act before we jump the gun or we can be Somalis and do what we do best, act first, regret later.

[N.O.R.F]

N.O.R.F;919662 wrote:

 

I understand what you’re saying but training needs equipment and bases need to be equipped to train. Logic dictates that the embargo will not be fully lifted. Essential equipment for the purposes of establishing security, starting the training and building processes should be made available. Any lifting of the embargo will have stringent conditions attached such as putting AMISOM at the centre of receiving, storing and distributing the equipment.

Beat that Mario B

[Miyir]

Odey;922491 wrote:

Lifting or Not Lifting, that is the Question!.

 

Seriously though we have addressed all the qabil issues, the Warlord issues and the trust issues. I on the other hand have a separate issue to raise. I know this army, I have seen them slowly being built and the "Government's forces" consist of clan militias that have been simply given uniforms in the beginning, but a new crop of soldiers are merging that are trained.

 

Therein lies my problem. If we want an army, we have to build one. We cannot simply start with this rubbish idea of collecting a bunch of clan militia and calling them an army. Those clan militias should be turned into the equivalent of the "National Guard" with the jurisdiction to guard that state and that state alone against whatever that comes that is beyond the police. The state Governor should have the authority over them.

 

When considering the Army the argument should first be" What is their jurisdiction, how do they work, when can they bear arms". after answering these questions and defining their roles and jurisdictions clearly then we can start recruiting for these positions and recruit well. We must have the criteria prepared first for recruitment. We then train them, we teach them the responsibility of a soldier to his/ her Country. We introduce Citizenship to them and ensure they are loyal to the "Nation" and "constitution" not the Leader. If we address these underlying issues we build an army that has a strong moral compass and we will not have a repeat of the last 50 years of the Somali National Army where they can be ordered to flatten an entire city or province and they wouldn't question it.

 

The lifting of the Arms embargo is not crucial, these issues above are more important. We must clean up our own act before we jump the gun or we can be Somalis and do what we do best, act first, regret later.

Very well put.

 

I don't trust current leadership to run anything meaningful as I have seen so far and its open to abuse as Qoslaye and damiin-jadiid demonstrated the short time they have been in power.

[Chimera]

NGONGE;919362 wrote:

Rahima,

 

I understand your position but still think it’s mistaken. There is nothing wrong with being an idealist; however, to become one (in the way you perceive the idea) you would need to distance yourself from all Somali political debate. For an idealist, the discussions of arms embargo, looted houses or clan fights are mere details that get in the way of their romanticised view of Somalia. These details don’t bother them, what they bother with instead are dreams of universal education, absolute justice and comprehensive healthcare (it’s the fantastic world of Chimera’s fluffy Somalia).

NGONGE, big bro, the difference between you and me is that if we were in a room somewhere in Somalia with a single pregnant mother expecting a boy. You would keep reminding her that he is the son of the man that used to abuse her, the same man that abandoned her. You would remind the young mother that the same blood would run through that little boy's vain. You would remind her of his clan-lineage and why the little boy most likely would end up a militiaman or a pirate, and that she should accept that destiny, because to you "clan is everything". In the process you would give her examples of the civil-war and showcase pictures of degenerate warlords as role-models.

 

I on the other would inform her of all the potential positions her son could attain in life if she were to support him. I would tell her that there is absolutely no limit to what her son could achieve if she raised him in the right environment, with proper care and attention, be it a doctor or Boeing pilot, an architect or a Karate champion. I would highlight that each man has his own soul, and that the sins of the father aren't inherited by the son. I would give her a myriad of examples showcasing successful Somalis to whom clan is unnecessary, and who have adopted more admirable/profitable and less destructive societal systems to advance their own lives and that of those around them.

 

Your stance is a lazy one, it lacks creativity and ingenuity, for that you need dreams, some attainable others not. However, we both know which of the two positions is more destructive to the newborn boy, You would have the young mother accept the terrible future you painted for her son, which in turn becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the mother after your speech lost all hope and simply did not bother to educate him, or to care for him, or to fight for his future, or to show him love because nobody wants to love a militiaman in the making, right?

 

I give her honey sweet hope and candy rich dreams. That's what a young mother wants to hear, that her son could be the President of Somalia one day and help her countrymen rise from their current pathetic existence, that he could fly for Somali Airlines one day, that he could be the head of East Africa's biggest Children's Hospital one day, that he could be the most sought after architect/designer in the Somali peninsula for new constructions one day. My position is what will benefit the toddler, and give him a fighting chance in a world ruined by older generations.

 

Superimpose this upon the whole of Somalia, and one can see which of the two positions is very destructive to the future generations and which of the two is more productive. Your "clan is everything" mantra should also be edited into "clan is necessary". The latter I will conceed, in a poverty stricken country like Somalia clan remains necessary, but this does not have to be the future reality. This degenerate societal system is barely 800 years old, and most clans can't abtiris back beyond the 16th century, most of it BS. I bet if I had a time-machine and inserted Big Bird in one of these genealogies the current clan-masses would eat it hook, line and sinker.

 

We were Somalis before the clans, and we will be Somalis after the clans. Its an extremely weak system when you peel away the bravado, for it cannot withstand the pressure of a strong state, or a strong movement. The problem in the case of Somalia is that these states and movements came with degenerate view-points and individuals of their own that failed to achieve success or maintain success in clan-neutralizing societal pillars such as education, military, religion and economy. This is why clan remains necessary in Somalia, but it wasn't necessary to the thousands of Somali school children that traveled across Somalia to teach nomads, from different clans than their own, how to read and write. It wasn't necessary to the thousands of Somali soldiers that were a hair away from permanently obliterating the Ethiopian empire, it wasn't necessary to the hundreds of thousands of Somalis from across the peninsula that invested and settled in the Somali metropolis of Mogadishu.

 

Rahima let you off easy, but we both know that the group which was the most powerful political and military force to rise from Somalia since the collapse of the central government was neither clan-based, nor dislodged by clan-based states. It took external powers to thwart their attempt at ruling Somalia. In this scenario, the group lack the visionary principles that guided Ataturk or the Ayyatollahs and the rest is history. Yet their rise also showcased the utter weakness of the Somali clan system in the face of a united transclan opposition.

 

"Clan is necessary", but only to certain factions in Somali society is this applicable, not to the thousands of Somali doctors, nurses, teachers that care for and teach hundreds of thousands Somali patients and students on an annual basis without asking for their lineage....clan is unnecessary. To the multi-million dollar Somali companies such as Hormuud and Dahabshiil employing tens of thousands of people and with offices all across the peninsula....clan is unnecessary.

 

Around 40-50% of the Somali population remains nomadic, and to further highlight your "clan is everything" mantra is a lazy way of stereotyping a complex problem, you would categorize these nomads as a large pool of clannists, because in your non-fluffy world, clan is everything. You would use the various skirmishes between nomads as an example that clan is everything and therefore we should accept it as is. My "clan is necessary" copy-edit is far more inclusive to the real roots of the problem of today, which in this case is watering wells and grazing areas. In a situation where these nomads are introduced to more modern technology in the form of rain-water harvesting, cloud seeding and factories to process and develop money-making products, the clan becomes unnecessary and the concept of violence becomes a thing of the past. Similar plans could be employed in the economic, political, military and social sectors to make clan unnecessary for the average Farah or Halimo.

 

That is the difference between you and me big brother, I provide solutions, some attainable tomorrow others we need a few years to reach them, but reach them we will. You however don't stimulate the mind, you only seek to perish the heart, and bury the soul, because in your world nothing good will come from Somalia, we should just forget about it, lose hope, because its one big clan-orgy, hallelujah!

 

Not me!

[xiinfaniin]

Chimera;930033 wrote:

NGONGE, big bro, the difference between you and me is that if we were in a room somewhere in Somalia with a single pregnant mother expecting a boy. You would keep reminding her that he is the son of the man that used to abuse her, the same man that abandoned her. You would remind the young mother that the same blood would run through that little boy's vain. You would remind her of his clan-lineage and why the little boy most likely would end up a militiaman or a pirate, and that she should accept that destiny, because to you "clan is everything". In the process you would give her examples of the civil-war and showcase pictures of degenerate warlords as role-models.

 

I on the other would inform her of all the potential positions her son could attain in life if she were to support him. I would tell her that there is absolutely no limit to what her son could achieve if she raised him in the right environment, with proper care and attention, be it a doctor or Boeing pilot, an architect or a Karate champion. I would highlight that each man has his own soul, and that the sins of the father aren't inherited by the son. I would give her a myriad of examples showcasing successful Somalis to whom clan is unnecessary, and who have adopted more admirable/profitable and less destructive societal systems to advance their own lives and that of those around them.

 

Your stance is a lazy one, it lacks creativity and ingenuity, for that you need dreams, some attainable others not. However, we both know which of the two positions is more destructive to the newborn boy, You would have the young mother accept the terrible future you painted for her son, which in turn becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the mother after your speech lost all hope and simply did not bother to educate him, or to care for him, or to fight for his future, or to show him love because nobody wants to love a militiaman in the making, right?

 

I give her honey sweet hope and candy rich dreams. That's what a young mother wants to hear, that her son could be the President of Somalia one day and help her countrymen rise from their current pathetic existence, that he could fly for Somali Airlines one day, that he could be the head of East Africa's biggest Children's Hospital one day, that he could be the most sought after architect/designer in the Somali peninsula for new constructions one day. My position is what will benefit the toddler, and give him a fighting chance in a world ruined by older generations.

 

Superimpose this upon the whole of Somalia, and one can see which of the two positions is very destructive to the future generations and which of the two is more productive. Your "clan is everything" mantra should also be edited into "clan is necessary". The latter I will conceed, in a poverty stricken country like Somalia clan remains necessary, but this does not have to be the future reality. This degenerate societal system is barely 800 years old, and most clans can't abtiris back beyond the 16th century, most of it BS. I bet if I had a time-machine and inserted Big Bird in one of these genealogies the current clan-masses would eat it hook, line and sinker.

 

We were Somalis before the clans, and we will be Somalis after the clans. Its an extremely weak system when you peel away the bravado, for it cannot withstand the pressure of a strong state, or a strong movement. The problem in the case of Somalia is that these states and movements came with degenerate view-points and individuals of their own that failed to achieve success or maintain success in clan-neutralizing societal pillars such as education, military, religion and economy. This is why clan remains necessary in Somalia, but it wasn't necessary to the thousands of Somali school children that traveled across Somalia to teach nomads, from different clans than their own, how to read and write. It wasn't necessary to the thousands of Somali soldiers that were a hair away from permanently obliterating the Ethiopian empire, it wasn't necessary to the hundreds of thousands of Somalis from across the peninsula that invested and settled in the Somali metropolis of Mogadishu.

 

Rahima let you off easy, but we both know that the group which was the most powerful political and military force to rise from Somalia since the collapse of the central government was neither clan-based, nor dislodged by clan-based states. It took external powers to thwart their attempt at ruling Somalia. In this scenario, the group lack the visionary principles that guided Ataturk or the Ayyatollahs and the rest is history. Yet their rise also showcased the utter weakness of the Somali clan system in the face of a united transclan opposition.

 

"Clan is necessary", but only to certain factions in Somali society is this applicable, not to the thousands of Somali doctors, nurses, teachers that care for and teach hundreds of thousands Somali patients and students on an annual basis without asking for their lineage....clan is unnecessary. To the multi-million dollar Somali companies such as Hormuud and Dahabshiil employing tens of thousands of people and with offices all across the peninsula....clan is unnecessary.

 

Around 40-50% of the Somali population remains nomadic, and to further highlight your "clan is everything" mantra is a lazy way of stereotyping a complex problem, you would categorize these nomads as a large pool of clannists, because in your non-fluffy world, clan is everything. You would use the various skirmishes between nomads as an example that clan is everything and therefore we should accept it as is. My "clan is necessary" copy-edit is far more inclusive to the real roots of the problem of today, which in this case is watering wells and grazing areas. In a situation where these nomads are introduced to more modern technology in the form of rain-water harvesting, cloud seeding and factories to process and develop money-making products, the clan becomes unnecessary and the concept of violence becomes a thing of the past. Similar plans could be employed in the economic, political, military and social sectors to make clan unnecessary for the average Farah or Halimo.

 

That is the difference between you and me big brother, I provide solutions, some attainable tomorrow others we need a few years to reach them, but reach them we will. You however don't stimulate the mind, you only seek to perish the heart, and bury the soul, because in your world nothing good will come from Somalia, we should just forget about it, lose hope, because its one big clan-orgy, hallelujah!

 

Not me!

These are well reasoned points Chimera provided to justify why he dreams about better Somalia ---a contrasting story, the ever raging battle between hope and defeatist talk.

 

If I know NGONGE his silence is a sign of acknowledgement that the young brother has indeed detained him with the most important weapon/force; reason

[Mario B]

N.O.R.F;922496 wrote:

Beat that Mario B

I concede.