Arms Embargo should only be Lifted When Government Creates Viable National Army, Recruited from All

[Waranle_Warrior]

Abwaan, Ethiopia ciidamadeeda hadaba waa joogaan gobolada Somalia. The issue is very simple sxb, sidii shalay loo lahaa ciidankii Puntland laga soo aruuriyay ma ahan ciidan dowladeed ee waa qabiil ayaa kuwa Banadir laga aruuriyayna la oranayaa inaad taas taageertidna waa hypocrisy saan kuu sheegay. Waxaa loo baahanyahay in gobolada Somaaliya oo dhan min Raas caseer ilaa Raas Kambooni ciidanka laga soo qoro si isku mid ah loo tababaro loona qalabeeyo. Waa intaas waxa laleeyahay marka maxaad taas kudiidantahay ama dowladu ayan taas usamaynayn. Warka oo gaaban waa in dowladu sidaas sameesaa inta aan arms embargo laqaadin ama xataa plan-ki diyaarisaa noocaas lagu sameen lahaa markaas laqaadaa hubka.

[Khadafi]

I have said it before, The arms-embargo should not be lifted. What dont need more weapons, what we need is aid or technica support in rebuilding our nation.

 

By the way if the arms starts to flood somalia who do you think will get hands on it? The Corruption is so ripe in somalia that al-shabaab and other clan militias will probably get the arms.

[Waranle_Warrior]

^What you said may be true, but then again this is a question of balancing the equation. Without a proper Somali army that's well trained, well disciplined, inclusive of all Somalis and fully equipped you won't defeat Alshabaab nor will be able to secure the country from M0oryaan Isbaaro addicts and will always depend on foreign force to clear such nuisance and defeat the bad guyz.

 

Where should the line be drawn?

[STOIC]

NGONGE;918250 wrote:

At any rate, if this is the case there really is nothing for PL to complain about (unless, of course, the central government does not recognise PL soldiers and include them in the lifting fo the embargo).

Ngonge, this is the same question I was wondering when our friend Xiin pulled the Irirism nonsense on me (which honestly I had no idea there was a Qabil called so).I'm at loss to see how Somali government will decide NOT to include Puntland army into Somalia army.If the government pitched its ambition of forming Somali army ONLY to Mogadishu folks then we can all say Somalia we have a problem..It is not surprising in the least that our brothers from Puntland only want to oppose the formation of Somalia army based on clan paranoia. I will bet you my left foot if the primeminsiter or the president was one of their OWN we will be reading five to six threads everyday about the wonderful Somali army about to take off with the arms embargo lifted.For how long should Somalia be a pitiful helpless government?

 

I think even Somaliland will be concerned with a stronger Somali army, but why should Somalia care about when it should exploit the full range of option available at its disposal?

[NGONGE]

^^ They have a point though, Stoic. One can be positive and optimistic about the chances of Somalia getting back on its feet but, at the same time, one must not forget the reasons that made Somalia what it is for the past twenty odd years; mistrust amongst clans.

 

The PL crew suspect that this government is only paying lip service to the federal arrangement and therefore have concluded that when the embargo is lifted, the government is going to mainly equip and arm a (mainly) southern based army. Uncomfortable as it is, it nonetheless is the RIGHT time to ask such questions and ensure that the government follows the federal formula.

 

To say "forget about the past and let’s move on" is not enough. It is something that did not work with even us in SL nor will it work with anyone within Somalia. Only when confidence in the system and trust in the federal arrangement is cultivated will people begin to move on. It also doesn't help when every genuine question is met with the tired old reply of "spoilers, qabiilists, etc".

 

I personally don't think Hassan Sheikh dare play the clan card in today's circumstances but I am not from Puntland and Hassan Sheikh must really convince PL (and others) that their worries are unwarranted.

[STOIC]

Ngonge, I can not pretend that there is NO mistrust that exist between Somali clan.I doubt too the President is there to perpetuate the status-quo of the Mogadishu folks.I believe there is a reason why Hassan Sheikh was elected a president and if we pretend that his election was illusory then how are they going to move forward? I'm not advocating them to follow him blindly, but they should at least accord the man the respect and power his office demands. There is a reaon why people have leaders and that is why Somalia has a parliament.This is an issue that should be taken upto the parliament and let the so called leaders make a vote. I'm sure the president will be happy to protect and follow the rules of the land.

 

PS I'm running to work, but will be back

[NGONGE]

^^ All that is good and well. It is even probably being done as we speak. However, here on SOL, we merely discuss the issues of the day in Somalia. With the Somali government requesting the lifting of the embargo, it is natural that people are going to ask questions and air suspicions. Also note that most of the questions are being asked by everyday people, the Imam did not speak yet.

 

The style, delivery and angry tone of these questions is what is wrong here, not the questions themselves.

[Tillamook]

Gheelle.T;918180 wrote:

Abwaan, adigana soo kuwii oran jiray yaan la qaaday cunnaqabatayna maad aheen, not that long ago. Tookaba dadbaa saaran meesha maaha. Naga daa dee, dadbaa wax taageeray ama mucaaraday qolo si gaar ah ha xijin'e. Shalay mucaarad baad aheyd maanta taageere

Gheele,

 

You raise a good observation -- Abwaan&Co should not be such blatant hypocrites: Why on God's green Earth would ostensibly born again, peace-loving ex-anarchist wanna support such madness now? I truly hate how such hypocrites support one thing one day, yet not another, depending who's in Villa Somalia. Like you said, if this were AY , I don't think many Hassan apologists would be supporting it. I admire the many people on this thread who don't mind calling out the madness of the early lifting of the arms embargo on Somalia, even if they do really like the president. It's a bad idea, period!

 

Besides, the lifting of this arms embargo will first be preceded by the formation of all the regional states and the reorganization of the federal parliament based on these regions, not the 4.5 nonsense that is being bandied about.

 

Personally, I believe Hassan's paranoia is justified knowing full well that today amongst all the Somali clan based states are more armed and equipped than Unukaland. I believe he wants to prepare himself for the day of reckoning when Somalis from everywhere come to reclaim their capital from the clutches of the unukaland militia. Thus, we can't begrudge a man for wanting to protect his interests or rather, his perceived interests, but at the same, that doesn't mean we should not say it as it and tell him this policy of his wrong.

[Baashi]

This young government has monumental challenge in front of it. There is little room for mistakes. We pray it makes the right decisions. Awoowayaal governing is very complicated business. And governing a broken society such as ours is a challenge with monumental proportions.

 

How do you rebuild the state security apparatus, reclaim sovereignty and keep political opposition and their loyal constituencies on board? There are no simple answers to these questions. If Hassan's government wants to leave a lasting legacy it should reconsider unilateral moves regarding rearming one faction out of several competing interest groups.

 

For those of you who think that this government is in a position to receive or manage a sizable military shipment need to focus on the government’s capacity to manage an institution as important as the military.

 

Suppose arms embargo is lifted tomorrow. Western powers or Turkey agrees to sell the government arms on a discounted loan. Now suppose first shipment – let’s say the bill of material lists 12 tanks, three helicopters, 200 military trucks, uniforms for three divisions -- arrives at the port and the airport tomorrow. Suppose the loan is also for the salary of 12 thousand soldiers for three years.

 

Now tell me what happens next. Anyone? The task is the logistics -- the storage and security of this important national asset! The second task is recruitment effort, the training, and the selection of the basis. The third task is the procurement of materials to build new or renovate existing facilities. The fourth task is the dispensation of the money, contract awards, etc.

 

These are questions worth asking – try to think about them and see if this young government is prepared for the task or if it needs to take things in a piecemeal fashion and tackle them one at a time. Once it covers all the basis then it has every right and actually it’s the government duty to reconstitute the national army.

 

The political issue is a whole can of worms.

 

If I were in president shoes I would get the 1000 thousand police trained, indoctrinated, equipped and serving first before I overreach and risk getting political opposition all worked up.

 

Again governing is a complicated business and this government, and in fact all admins throughout the country, are learning the trade on the job.

[nuune]

Well said Xaaji Baashi, the points you raised are very important, and can be summarized in one line: 'distinction between process and product'.

[Abu-Salman]

Baashi, this is what I had in mind too and this issue is irrelevant not only because it's largely rethorical (any easing if any will be monitored)but also because credible policing, justice and above all interclans trust are the real issues rather than more armored cars or artillery when discipline is still at such an embryonic stage (it's still good for the government to have it lifted on paper but with monitoring).

 

At the stage when artillery or tanks are really needed and Djiboutian or Ugandese ones gone (many trucks etc donated to them for their role), many states from Algeria to S. Korea will be glad to send it free, either new or slightly obsolete; mastering armored cars is very quick but justice, soldiers or police discipline and accountability for shipments, most crucially clans balance and trust is so much more of and the real challenges.

[Khadafi]

Arrinta wey sahlantahay, SOMALIA does not need more WEAPONS, we need more reconcilation and more dialogue! AK-47 badan khayr ma keenayaan.!

 

As a banaadiri I am totally against the lifting of the arms embargo! Dadka ma washeen yaakhay? Dad ma jiro aaminsan in hub kale soomaliya ku tooseyso!

 

An old somali women once said " NIN AANAN YAABIN WUXUU DHAHAY WAA YAABAY";)

[nuune]

^^ More like a reer Xamar maahmaah

[Somalia]

STOIC;918287 wrote:

Ngonge, this is the same question I was wondering when our friend Xiin pulled the Irirism nonsense on me (which honestly I had no idea there was a Qabil called so).I'm at loss to see how Somali government will decide NOT to include Puntland army into Somalia army.If the government pitched its ambition of forming Somali army ONLY to Mogadishu folks then we can all say Somalia we have a problem..It is not surprising in the least that our brothers from Puntland only want to oppose the formation of Somalia army based on clan paranoia.

I will bet you my left foot if the primeminsiter or the president was one of their OWN we will be reading five to six threads everyday about the wonderful Somali army about to take off with the arms embargo lifted.

For how long should Somalia be a pitiful helpless government?

I bet this, I bet that, how about not betting but knowing?

 

http://www.somaliaonline.com/community/showthread.php/62157-Somalia-wants-arms-embargo-lifted-to-fend-off-al-Qaeda

[Rahima]

Baashi;918426 wrote:

This young government has monumental challenge in front of it. There is little room for mistakes. We pray it makes the right decisions.

Awoowayaal

governing is very complicated business. And governing a broken society such as ours is a challenge with monumental proportions.

 

How do you rebuild the state security apparatus, reclaim sovereignty and keep political opposition and their loyal constituencies on board? There are no simple answers to these questions. If Hassan's government wants to leave a lasting legacy it should reconsider unilateral moves regarding rearming one faction out of several competing interest groups.

 

For those of you who think that this government is in a position to receive or manage a sizable military shipment need to focus on the government’s capacity to manage an institution as important as the military.

 

Suppose arms embargo is lifted tomorrow. Western powers or Turkey agrees to sell the government arms on a discounted loan. Now suppose first shipment – let’s say the bill of material lists 12 tanks, three helicopters, 200 military trucks, uniforms for three divisions -- arrives at the port and the airport tomorrow. Suppose the loan is also for the salary of 12 thousand soldiers for three years.

 

Now tell me what happens next. Anyone? The task is the logistics -- the storage and security of this important national asset! The second task is recruitment effort, the training, and the selection of the basis. The third task is the procurement of materials to build new or renovate existing facilities. The fourth task is the dispensation of the money, contract awards, etc.

 

These are questions worth asking – try to think about them and see if this young government is prepared for the task or if it needs to take things in a piecemeal fashion and tackle them one at a time. Once it covers all the basis then it has every right and actually it’s the government duty to reconstitute the national army.

 

The political issue is a whole can of worms.

 

If I were in president shoes I would get the 1000 thousand police trained, indoctrinated, equipped and serving first before I overreach and risk getting political opposition all worked up.

 

Again governing is a complicated business and this government, and in fact all admins throughout the country, are learning the trade on the job.

NG,

 

That is how one should raise the questions and any objections. Raising questions that have underlying connotations, especially those of a tribal nature will no doubt make people question your intentions- especially when you make the same underlying connotations on almost every topic of contention.