New Age Clans?

[Chimera]

puntnomads;882911 wrote:

 

 

Chimera

 

you are forgetting the most important fact. That the rise of clannism is because of the failure of the post 1969 government. Government in tribal societies like Somalia, Libya and Saudi Arabia use clannism when the going gets tough.

Historic revisionism! Clannism was already in full force in the 1960s, hundreds of political parties were formed along clan-lines that were beginning to dismantle and discredit the multi-clan parties such as SYL, SNL and the SNC. If clan had not been a factor, these parties could have been for Somalia what the Republican-Democrat-Independent axis is for America. Three major parties spanning the entire country.

 

Instead, in a diva-like fashion, Somali clan-chieftains felt their powers waning, and cooked up those silly defunct parties that individually would never have the power or popularity to usher in serious progress, they were obstacles resulting in mass corruption. The Military was a multi-clan institution and intervened accordingly.

 

after the 1977 debacle the government used divide and rule tactics on different clans. If the Somalia government acted with no discrimination and was an equal opportunities employer between 1960 and now, clannism would be dead.

Bringing down a dictatorship was the right thing to do, the Somalis showed they weren't docile, and would fight for their rights. However they humiliated themselves around the world when they dismantled their own country in the name of clan. One administration or president does not equal a country.

 

But if the government is supporting certain clans, then I as a unbiased person will be forced to rely on my clan for support to remedy my injustice due solely to the government injustice. As a matter of fact show me a Somali government that can act justly and fairly for 30 years and I will guarantee the dead of clannish ideology.

One must demand justice and compensation through demonstrations or through force, but one has to also have a plan for the aftermath. Your stand on the matter is not sustainable, because clans disintergrate into subclans and they disintergrate into more subclans. Its a cobweb of instability and recipe for prolonged violence.

 

What you don't realize about past Scottish, German and Japanese states is that they never discriminated against people based on blood and they had a concept of citizenship, meaning that anyone that lived in their state was an equal citizen and they discriminated between individuals on how much they have done for the state.

LMAO! You obviously have no idea how Scotland lost its clans, how Prussia vanguished entire kingdoms and cities to unite the Germans and through what methods the Japanese clans and their shogunates perished. What happened in Somalia, happened there, only in their situation their dictators, emperors and presidents subdued rebellions and permanently destroyed their rivals.

 

In their case, the 'evil' administrations prevailed and lived on. Not a form of State-building I want to see in Somalia, we can achieve the same through economic prosperity and a common cultural revival.

 

The old Somali state reminds me of the Spanish Umayyid caliphate in its dying decades. even though the most loyal subjects to the caliphate was the Spanish converts who were 80% of the caliphate population, the caliph relied on Arab and Berber tribes for political and military support and discriminated against the majority of his subjects. Make me think they deserved what happened to them. Make me think that the old Somali republic deserved to die.

Did the 500 thousand Somalis that died after the collapse of the Somali state deserve to die?

 

This will be an interesting answer, and will reveal a lot about you.

 

You are whitewashing their bad example and not realizing Somalis have incredible long memories about any injustice done to them. The issue isn't ideological, it is practical and you have no answer how injustice will be remedied. Somali will only trust a strong central state if it is unbiased for decades and it has the strength to deliver equal justice for all clans and doesn't commit injustice on certain clans. That doesn't mean the government doesn't commit injustice, it just means it does it in an unbiased manner.

No, I'm not white-washing anything, nothing in my previous posts even referred to the 1980s dictatorship. I'm discussing the concept of a Somali state where the ultimate clan is the Somali identity. Where economic prosperity in the form of trade-unions and nationwide/global companies provides the necessary safety-nets that will render clan-loyalty obsolete. Where Somali cities are flourishing multi-clan metropolises with cosmopolitan populations.

 

From your name I deduce that your from Puntland, do you want me to highlight all the injustices occurring there? Will there be a collapse of Puntland in the future based on that sentiment too? If Somalis in your expert opinion reject the concept of a united republic, will not accept a regional state, and prefer their cities to remain clan-strongholds, how the hell are they going to progress into the future?

 

indefinitely, perhaps forever. People will not tolerate injustice, especially Somalis, they would rather have a failed state than have a certain clan enjoying the benefits of the state at their expense. We are not Ethiopians. If you don't believe this then you don't know Somalis, me included.

You say that from the comfort of Birmingham, a city in the United Kingdom; a flourishing civilization based on a strong national identity. Where meritocracy rules, and where a person, regardless of his or her colour or creed can achieve success. Not a single Somali in Somalia would agree with you, outside of the clan-chieftains sitting in their pseudo-Gold thrones eating five meals a day, while their clan-constituents are dying of conflict, hunger, thirst, disease, and crossing the sea for a better life.

 

All I proposed is a Somali State with a single clan in the form of the Somali People, where a Somali president from Ras Kamboni would work just as hard for the people of Zeila as he would for his birth-region. Where a Somali Prime-Minister from Hargeisa would attract foreign direct investment just as passionately for the cities of Garowe and Bosaso as he would for his birth-city. Where a man or woman from Qardho could become mayor of Mogadishu, and a man or woman from Merka could become the manager of the Berbera port.

 

Indefinitely? Most definitely not!

[Mario B]

Chimera;883048 wrote:

Historic revisionism!...

 

A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within... especially a clan treason.

[Baashi]

Preach on Chimera. Go Chimera Go! I didn't read the whole post but I think I get the gist of your thinking. Whatever you do, DO NOT glorify Barre administration and military junta he led.

[puntnomads]

"Did the 500 thousand Somalis that died after the collapse of the Somali state deserve to die?"

 

That had nothing to do with the death of the old republic. the breakup of the soviet union was peaceful so no excuses.

 

"how the hell are they going to progress into the future?"

 

They simply will be were they are now, maybe a little worse. your optimism is lovely but is unrealistic.

 

"Not a single Somali in Somalia would agree with you"

 

This is the only real difference between us. I believe you have got this wrong. It takes two to tango. And you can't blame brainwashing because there isn't any. They may say they want peace but their actions prove where their real loyalty lies. Just like Sport is a religion to westerners, Clan is a religion for Somalis. You are trying to find rationality where there is only irrationally. Clannism is an emotional attachment and people defend the indefensible when their emotions are involved, like American patriotism. That is why a Somali mufti may turn clannish when his clan is involved regardless of all the knowledge he has. Even though I hate to say it, Clan is everything to Somalis as most Somalis have an emotional attachment to it.

 

 

"Its madness.........no...this is..........Somalia!"

 

You intuitively know what I was saying above.

 

"The reason why a Somali national identity never solidified despite all the ingredients being there is solely the result of defeat."

 

I agree with you 100%. Now tell how that will ever be reversed on the required scale without a ruthless and progressive dictator like Stalin, forgetting his faults. It will take miraculous political management to get Somalis over the traumatized national psyche.