Raskambooni movement its not up to President Hassan to create a federal state for our regions.

[Abwaan]

lol@Haatu oo hadda ma waxaad leedahay Abtigiis iyo The Zack waa Gali iskuul aaddey? Warba adigaa haya.

[Haatu]

lol Abwaan you misunderstood. We meant 'dhiig islaan ayey qabaan' as in they have the blood of muslims because they were known for constant clan fighting

[Macallinka]

I remember as a young boy growing up in Saakoow , they used call us GALTI GOON DHEER loool

[Mario B]

Apophis;877279 wrote:

Pps: Mario B: what is it with the Christian gifs; are you considering changing ships?

:D

Hallelujah means God be praised/Praise the Lord!!..... and No!! I'm staying put, I already have Jesus ibn Maryam in my life .

 

سبحان الله

 

[Abwaan]

Haatu;877287 wrote:

lol Abwaan you misunderstood. We meant 'dhiig islaan ayey qabaan' as in they have the blood of muslims because they were known for constant clan fighting

lol@Haatu tan baaba ka sii daran ee Ilaahoow na badbaadi.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

The government of Somalia said today that they are not aware of a state being established in Kenya. Nor about a conference organized by Igad in Nairobi to establish a state for the 3 southern regions of Somalia the interior Minister spoke today. The President needs to make a decision on this issue as soon as he appoints his new prime Minister.

[Somalia]

Reer Gedo are tasting their own medicine, it was ok for Barre Hiiraale to do it against TFG but it's not ok for Ras Kambooni faction to do it against FG

[Taleexi]

Perhaps they've a point.

[Jacpher]

Somalia;877330 wrote:

Reer Gedo are tasting their own medicine, it was ok for Barre Hiiraale to do it against TFG but it's not ok for Ras Kambooni faction to do it against FG

Perhaps they are undoing it by being on the right side of the issue this time.

[Chimera]

Apophis;878095 wrote:

All these are welcome steps in the right direction but it doesn't suggest a trend or a the rise of a strong state. I, like you, live in hope that our troubles are behind us but my expectation is more pragmatic.

How convenient of you to dismiss real democratic progress on the ground that is missing in 90% of the countries in Africa. Somalia has set and achieved more landmarks in this year alone than any other country in the region has in the last decade. The parliament is the most educated with 60% constituting of graduates from top universities in the diaspora. We had a fair election where the incumbent acknowledged defeat, instead of dragging it on and turning it into a fiasco that would result in one of those 'coalition-government' charades that is plaguing the continent, we had fresh faces for the country's top 3 positions.

 

The percentage of women in parliament in Somalia - that will continue to grow - is higher than in Kenya, and I'm comparing it to the latter because that's the only country with a parliament that actually has some sort of credibility or power. Its easy to dismiss the major landmarks I mentioned earlier when you compare it with a western country, but when you look at the region Somalia is in, with dictators and stubborn incumbents galore, then it puts things into persepective.

 

We successfully ended the transition and are in the transformation stage. It is clear that Somalia is coming back fast, and more robust than the prewar state. We are wealthier, we have more companies, we have more educated politicians, we have more urban hubs, we have more trade-links, we have regional states, we have a very involved diaspora. All ingredients for a serious comeback!

 

Your examples have little resemblances with what we're discussing. Find more relevant examples.

Devolution of power doesn't equal 'weakness', hence my examples were spot on!

 

Again, only potential nothing actual.

Potential and actual what? Its a fact that Somalia now has a very educated parliament.

 

They'll probably not be seeing it the way your're seeing it. What you see as a violation maybe seen as "encouraging the right attitude". The puppet master can pull whichever string he wishes.

Indeed, and he will string Kenya to sync its policy with that of Somalia, because that little plan being hatched in the South has all the hallmarks of a prolonged conflict.

 

Exactly what I said.

Not really

 

Concentrate on what I said; I was speaking of diplomatic clout not library membership.

Those library cards is all Somalia needs to defend its sovereignty in International Law.

 

If it was as strategic as you say, the US wouldn't have pulled out after losing 18 soldiers even with a bad press. The monitoring station were vital during the cold war but when it finished the game changed and we were thrown away like a used handkerchief. International relations at its most cut-throat.

It wasn't the Americans responsibility to keep Somalia together, it was ours! Yet long after the collapse of the Soviet Union the Americans send in a massive rescue mission to salvage what was still a barely functioning state. Secondly there was no-one on the political scene wise enough to grab the opportunity to quickly fill the vacuum with American help, the way Meles Zenawi did in Ethiopia. Also, don't downplay the major disaster that was the Black Hawk Down fiasco and the psychological impact it had in America. It was the first time American soldiers were in close combat since the Vietnam War and to make it worse, the images of American soldiers being dragged on national tv made sure no American president in his right mind could justify a continued presence.

 

When they actually find some, I'll concede the point.

Sure, and we can safely say then that the American companies that invested the equivalance of a billion dollars in today's exchange rate during the 1980s was just them throwing away their money on a phantom guess!

 

I don't think you yourself wish anybody harm and your post history suggests benevolence but you seem to be ignorant of the influence of clan politics on national politics.

Just because you don't see me engage in this neolithic clan-talk and backwards supremacy, do not for a moment think I don't have my 'eye on the situation'. There are already clans complaining about the Nairobi initiative, calling it ''illegal' and to ignore them is to invite more bloodshed.

 

Yes, sweep the Ethiopians (our oldest and most ruthless enemy) under the carpet and lets focus on Kenya which, compared to Ethiopia, has been a saint to the Somali people. Also, do you not think the Ethios are setting a buffer zone of their own? What of the un-demarcated border? What of the Somali lands they hold hostage? Get real.

 

I disagree; Hiiraan faces an enemy who violates and has been violating our borders at will for the last twenty years. It's a gaping national security hole which should concern the government more than the Jubbas. Kenya is not our enemy (in the same way as Ethiopia) and I do not envision a threat to national security emanating from their side (barring the minor, in my opinion, sea dispute which should be settled in Somalia's favour).

Don't get it twisted, Ethiopians and Kenyans are same sh.t to me, two countries that have gained from the colonialist presence during the 20th century, two countries that have gained from the collapse of the Somali state and armed forces, and don't bring that 'dadaab' card, they are funded by the UN. Ethiopia can be handled by a strong Somali army, that has always been their achilles heel, however Kenya is doing something that could be irreversible through diplomatic means, such as shady MOU's and buffer-zones.

 

It makes them a bigger priority.

 

I've never been to Hargeisa but me saying " I own it" means nothing especially when I and all know who really owns Hargeisa. In the same sense just because the whole of Somaliweyne decided they want a piece of the Jubbas doesn't mean they own it. Now, there won't be any "hot contest" as the locals will share power amongst themselves. This is a good thing.

So now you dispute the legitimate grievances of certain sections of 'the locals' because you believe they are just 'claiming' land instead of actually being from there.

 

What evidence do you have to dispute their claim?

 

The locals will consult the government after finishing their own deliberations. It's the new government which jumped the gun and started to criticise the effort of the locals. The government has to earn the trust of the locals.

Interesting there are currently locals discussing the issue of Kismayo with the Federal government and claiming they have been left out of the Nairobi initiative. The situation is clearly not as monolithic as you make it out to be.

 

Lets focus on Somalia.

Spot on analogies are a common feature in debates, we are focusing on Somalia

 

The only element doing the sidestepping is the government. Patriotism clouds the mind; I have no interest in it.

No, the Federal government is being inclusive.

 

Your tone.

I resent that.

 

A realist. Remember '08 and "hope" and "change" nonsense? I called BS on that.

What? Obama or Sharif? The first has made more progress than any Republican government in the last decade, and the latter did help usher in this positive period we are enjoying today in the form of the end of the transition and a legitimate government.

 

Hope was justified and major change has been delivered.

[Chimera]

Apophis;878191 wrote:

I guess our definitions and standards are different. I don't call the process which lead to the current government democratic, to me it is clan-tocracy and it's nothing to be proud of. And Africa's parliaments are full of graduates and PHD holders of all kinds and the continent is, still, the way it is. I will judge them on their delivery not the papers they hold.

You want Somalia to fly before it can walk, your standards are far to high, and yet you call yourself a 'realist'? Laughable, the major seismic shift in Somalia is a positive one, and I am in my right to conclude that we are on the right track to a strong Somali republic, one that is accountable and responsible.

 

It wasn't an easy feat (or even what the "clan elders" wanted) but I support and I'm happy that we have as many women as we have in parliament. This is an example of a real progress.

I'm glad you conceed this point. We regressed in the last twenty years and are finally heading the right direction. Remember Somali women voted before Swiss women did, and we were the first muslim country to enact laws that deemed men and women equal in the republic on all matters. This one of the historic patterns I mentioned earlier that shows when there are responsible people at the helm we can make alot of progress.

 

You keep confusing potential for re-re-emergence with an actual re-emergence. I've said it before and I'll repeat, we have potential but whether that will bear out is entirely another matter.

A stable Somalia is a regional power by default, this has nothing to do with 'potential', unless you think we are a perpetual warlike people who 'potentially could be peaceful'?

 

Compare like with like, America and Russia cannot be compared to Somalia.

Nothing in Africa can be compared to America and Russia, only a handful in the world can in terms of power-projection and economics. However my analogy was about governmental 'devolution' and how this doesn't necessarily mean a country is 'weak' as a result, hence the comparison is justified.

 

The potential to do something doesn't always = actually doing it.

The previous two cabinets were technocrats and they most definitely delivered upon their promises. It will take another year for us to be able to assess the new technocrats, but seeing as educated Somali men and women have made a significant mark already in reviving the country, I see no reason why this trend won't continue, unless the country is struck by a major disaster that kills off all educated technocrats.

 

Not likely.

 

Only if the rest of Somaliweyne decides to unjustly interfere.

This is about locals feeling left out, it has nothing to do with Somaliweyne.

 

Not that simple.

It is.

 

My point still stands; the west lost interest in Somalia after the Cold War ended because the country wasn't, strategically, as valuable as before.

It doesn't stand, because Somali-American military programs were still ongoing after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Somali pilots were being trained to fly F-16s, you don't make that kind of major technological commitment with an African country (Somalia being one of two, the other being Egypt) unless its long-term. Somalia can never lose its strategic value, 50% of the world sea-trade passes Somalia's coast every year. The fact remains none of our leaders rose to the challenge and filled the vacuum, and we suffered horrendously as a result, our fault alone.

 

Nothing to do with America.

 

Oil companies speculate all the time; it's nothing new. What's a billion dollars to an oil company (even in the 80s)? Pocket change.

This is becoming tedious, sure you're in your right to contradict numerous geological studies spanning a century, but American strategists won't and haven't!

 

Maybe instead of complaining they should get involved or are they afraid their "complaints" will turn out to be BS?

They have been excluded, and its amusing to see your 'tone' towards these communities, its clear that you have an issue with them because they will derail a shady political process.

 

I disagree; on the one hand you have a ruthless enemy who violates the country at will and who invaded and killed thousands not to long ago, while on the other you have a country which has kept, with UN aid, hundreds of thousands of Somali refugees. There's a big difference. I'll trust a docile Kenyans over blood thirsty Ethios any day.

The case of Ethiopia requires a strong Somali military which is currently being built, the case of Kenya is political, and this is a platform in Somalia that recently saw a seismic shift from a warlord infested entity to one filled with technocrats and fresh faces. We own the political platform now and therefore the Federal government is absolutely in its right to thwart an attack on our sovereignty 'politically' and deal with the Ethiopian factor with a rebuild Somali Armed Forces 'militarily'.

 

The onus is on them, the complainers, to proof their claim, not the other way round.

As I said, I can claim any piece of land I want on the planet but I have to proof ownership before people take me seriously. This is everyday common sense.

Why because one group has a gun and the other doesn't? Might is right, how silly, we still haven't learned a thing from the civl-war. These 'complainers' might be a sore to you, but nobody can deny their right, and they will prove their claim at an all-inclusive conference inside the country, not some foreign capital.

 

The FG has done nothing but interfere and complain.

Everyone complains and interferes in your eyes. The region is under the Federal government's jurisdiction, it has a right to 'interfere' if its sidestepped and make sure the process is fair and inclusive.

[Chimera]

I meant Obama but it's good you mentioned the second failure too. Both were trusted by idealistic simpletons and both utterly failed but then again the majority of the planet is made up of people who can be feed simple slogans and unrealistic promises so I don't blame both leaders. It's like fishing with a grenade. lol.

LMAO

 

Obama has literally saved America from the worst recession in recent history and the mess Bush jr left behind. He achieved more in the last three years than Bush did in two terms:

 

1. Passed Health Care Reform: After five presidents over a century failed to create universal health insurance, signed the Affordable Care Act (2010). It will cover 32 million uninsured Americans beginning in 2014 and mandates a suite of experimental measures to cut health care cost growth, the number one cause of America’s long-term fiscal problems.

 

2. Passed the Stimulus: Signed $787 billion American Recovery and Reinvestment Act in 2009 to spur economic growth amid greatest recession since the Great Depression. Weeks after stimulus went into effect, unemployment claims began to subside. Twelve months later, the private sector began producing more jobs than it was losing, and it has continued to do so for twenty-three straight months, creating a total of nearly 3.7 million new private-sector jobs.

 

3. Passed Wall Street Reform: Signed the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (2010) to re-regulate the financial sector after its practices caused the Great Recession. The new law tightens capital requirements on large banks and other financial institutions, requires derivatives to be sold on clearinghouses and exchanges, mandates that large banks provide “living wills” to avoid chaotic bankruptcies, limits their ability to trade with customers’ money for their own profit, and creates the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (now headed by Richard Cordray) to crack down on abusive lending products and companies.

 

4. Ended the War in Iraq: Ordered all U.S. military forces out of the country. Last troops left on December 18, 2011.

 

5. Began Drawdown of War in Afghanistan: From a peak of 101,000 troops in June 2011, U.S. forces are now down to 91,000, with 23,000 slated to leave by the end of summer 2012. According to Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, the combat mission there will be over by next year.

 

6. Eliminated Osama bin laden: In 2011, ordered special forces raid of secret compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, in which the terrorist leader was killed and a trove of al-Qaeda documents was discovered.

 

7. Turned Around U.S. Auto Industry: In 2009, injected $62 billion in federal money (on top of $13.4 billion in loans from the Bush administration) into ailing GM and Chrysler in return for equity stakes and agreements for massive restructuring. Since bottoming out in 2009, the auto industry has added more than 100,000 jobs. In 2011, the Big Three automakers all gained market share for the first time in two decades. The government expects to lose $16 billion of its investment, less if the price of the GM stock it still owns increases.

 

8. Expanded Stem Cell Research: In 2009, eliminated the Bush-era restrictions on embryonic stem cell research, which shows promise in treating spinal injuries, among many other areas.

 

9. Created Conditions to Begin Closing Dirtiest Power Plants: New EPA restrictions on mercury and toxic pollution, issued in December 2011, likely to lead to the closing of between sixty-eight and 231 of the nation’s oldest and dirtiest coal-fired power plants. Estimated cost to utilities: at least $11 billion by 2016. Estimated health benefits: $59 billion to $140 billion. Will also significantly reduce carbon emissions and, with other regulations, comprises what’s been called Obama’s “stealth climate policy.”

 

10. Achieved New START Treaty: Signed with Russia (2010) and won ratification in Congress (2011) of treaty that limits each country to 1,550 strategic warheads (down from 2,200) and 700 launchers (down from more than 1,400), and reestablished and strengthened a monitoring and transparency program that had lapsed in 2009, through which each country can monitor the other.

 

11. Invested Heavily in Renewable Technology: As part of the 2009 stimulus, invested $90 billion, more than any previous administration, in research on smart grids, energy efficiency, electric cars, renewable electricity generation, cleaner coal, and biofuels. -- Source

[Chimera]

Apophis;878201 wrote:

^^ Obama has utterly failed those who bought into the hype but that's not something I'm interested in debating.

Neither am I, but the achievements speak for themselves.

 

Yes, I call myself a realist in comparison to you; you seem to have decided already everything is back to normal and the Somali government and the country as a whole is back to it's feet and as strong, if not more so, than the kacaan government. That's insane.

Don't twist my words, I didn't say today's Somalia is stronger than prewar Somalia, I said the Somalia currently in the making will be more 'robust' than the one during the Kacaan period, from politics, to economics, to society.

 

Nothing insane about that.

 

Didn't concede anything. You raised a point which we were in agreement with. I'm aware of Barre's government efforts in increasing women participation in all sectors of Somali life and it was commendable. I hope we go back to that. But remember, the military government forced that legislation through, I wonder if the current leaders will do the same without cowering to religious zealots.

Not just the Barre period, the civilian governments were just as commendable, and considering the current President has several female activists as his advisers, and the parliament is filled with educated men and women, that came from equal opportunity countries I don't see why new legislations raising the profile of women and minorities wouldn't be passed in parliament.

 

Just because Russia and America has devolved power structures doesn't mean they're comparable to Somalia; their history and society is utterly different. That's way the comparison is a bit stretched.

Your not getting it, the concept of devolution doesn't necessarily equal 'weak governance' in any country.

 

I disagree.

Where does your 'Greater Somalia is interferring' claim come from? The Raskambooni militia is filled with recruits from outside Somalia proper, what do you call that?

 

We're going in circles.

Round and round yay!

 

There could be a trillion barrels of oil under Somalia but until we see it flowing it's just speculation. What's wrong with reserving judgement until the evidence is flowing, so to speak?

Be that is may, it still influences the policies of foreign countries towards Somalia, including America. You think the London Conference and BP being interested in Somali oil is a coincidence?

 

LOL

 

I see no exclusion but if you have evidence please show and I'll change my mind.

Exhibit A

 

The military threat is always much more dangerous to a nation than a political one. We should re-focus on Ethiopia; the Rome to our Carthage.

No military caused the collapse of the Somali State or Somali Armed Forces, it was politics. Ethiopia has come under the guise of fighting terrorism, the faster we have politically intergrated all the regions of Somalia into the new Federal administration the faster the new armed forces will be able to recruit and maintain a diverse army capable of defending the borders and give Ethiopian leaders sleepless nights.

 

Political intergration has to be inclusive first.

 

No, might isn't right (though realistically speaking, it is) and anybody who can proof they're being cheated should be heard. Where this meeting happens though is irrelevant. After all, wasn't the TFG set up in foreign lands.

TFG is old news, the FGS was elected inside Somalia, this is a new era, and the time of doing stuff in other people's countries is obsolete.

 

Because of the double standards I mentioned in earlier posts.The FG should deal with the Jubba initiative in the same way they deal with other regions. All I'm saying is lets be fair and treat all equally.

None of the other regions have entire communities complaining about exclusion. The more I read about this issue the more I agree with the FG's stance on the situation. We finally have a competent team at the top positions of Somalia's government.