The Nail Of Juhaa

[BiLaaL]

A worthy discussion. The innuendoes against both the TFG and AS often miss the mark. I suspect that we won’t reach a common position about either of these two entities.

 

We shouldn’t dwell too much on Al-Shabab’s embrace of suicide bombings. This is a practice which has engulfed other Muslim lands and Somalia is no exception.

 

One thing we might all be able to agree on is this: that both groups have woefully failed to take the interests of the suffering populous into account. To have more than a million IDPs in and around Mogadishu and hundreds of thousands more languishing in refugee camps in neighbouring states is a real tragedy.

 

Given that AS is the stronger of the two parties, its continued belligerence ought to be questioned. Islamic armies, movements of the past exercised exemplary care whenever the lives of Muslim civlians were in danger. Salahuddin was once said to have abandoned an expedition (can’t quite recall the place in question) out of fear that innocent Muslims may come in harms way.

 

I don’t doubt that AS care about their people. Unfortunately, there is less to be said about its willingness to compromise and fully engage with groups opposing it. I say this while considering some of the valid complexities outlined by brother Nur.

 

PS – Nur, I find your take on the character traits of Somalis interesting – naïve and nosy. I feel that Somalis (especially those currently in leadership positions) have lost their sense of independence and pride. Our current leaders, in contrast to those who’ve come before them, take orders from anyone.

 

I’m sorry to say, but your conclusion that foreign designs are bound to fail in Somalia due to our unique traits may not hold true for much longer.

[Nur]

Castro bro

 

Your write:

 

You might even go as far as arguing the Shabaab don't even exist and are a convenient villain created by these powerful interests (much like some argue the Qaeda is). You see where I'm going with this, right? [big Grin]

 

That is stretching it little too far saaxib, but as for Al Qaeda, the deception is unparalleled, like they say, don't believe ALL you hear, and HALF of what you see, since the art of multimedia doctoring spun from Hollywood technologies to manufacture consent has been perfected. check it out here http://www.alqaedadoesntexist.com/

 

 

Malika sis

 

We are rotten from the outside-in, just like catching a virus, who do you think would have been in power if Ethiopia didn't invade Somalia in 2006?

 

Non interference of other nations and the right to self determination of people's have been violated by powerful nations who consider Islam as their prime enemy, and any organization with an Islamic agenda as a threat to their national security.

 

 

Bilal bro

 

 

You Write:

 

One thing we might all be able to agree on is this: that both groups have woefully failed to take the interests of the suffering populous into account. To have more than a million IDPs in and around Mogadishu and hundreds of thousands more languishing in refugee camps in neighboring states is a real tragedy.

 

Agree, If a fair fact finding commission was set up today to put blame where it belongs, they would start as follows:

 

1. Who were the leaders of the past 18 years of clan civil war? who sponsored them, supplied them with weapons? Answer: Warlords supported by Ethiopa

 

2. Who was helping the people in these period, in education, health and business? Answer: Islamic groups.

 

3. Who established the popular Islamic courts that gave the people of Mogadishu the first glimpse of peace and harmony after years of anarchy and chaos by the hired guns of the warlords? Answer: Islamic groups

 

4. Who created the alliance of fighting "terrorism" aka Islam, to destroy the Islamic courts? Answer: Warlords

 

5. Who led the Ethiopian army to destabilize the nascent and new formation of Islamic Courts Union? Answer: Warlords

 

6. Who set up the government in Nairobi without any representation of any of the Islamic groups? Answer: Warlord led government

 

7. Who gave a " Legitimate" mandate for Ethiopian troops and African Union to occupy Mogadishu? Answer: Warlord led government

 

Now, to be fair, if the warlords have mandated and legitimized the arrival and occupation of Somalia, are you suggesting that for the sake of safety of the people, and for fear that if they resistance groups attack the occupiers, that they would fire at all directions indiscriminately as well documented, that the the resistance groups should have accepted the occupation and laid down their guns?

 

Is the blame on both sides equal yaa akhi?

 

You write:

 

 

Given that AS is the stronger of the two parties, its continued belligerence ought to be questioned.

 

I agree again, but with fairness an equal footing of what the other party has done and continues to do. If you are standing on my toe, is pushing you off a belligerent action?

 

 

Islamic armies, movements of the past exercised exemplary care whenever the lives of Muslim civilians were in danger. Salahuddin was once said to have abandoned an expedition (can’t quite recall the place in question) out of fear that innocent Muslims may come in harms way.

 

That is an exemplary credit to an Islamic State once established, in our case, the very existence of such state has been labeled " Terrorism" which is the essence of what the whole internationalized conflict is all about.

 

You write:

 

 

I don’t doubt that AS care about their people. Unfortunately, there is less to be said about its willingness to compromise and fully engage with groups opposing it. I say this while considering some of the valid complexities outlined by brother Nur.

 

 

I agree, 100% in that, AS should mend fences with their brothers of the Xizb Al Islam and the moderate elements ( from Islamic perspective) TFG, ( Warlords are the extremists). They need to be soft to those who differ with them in approach but are in line with establishing a just and fair governance in Somalia.

 

 

You write:

 

PS – Nur, I find your take on the character traits of Somalis interesting – naïve and nosy. I feel that Somalis (especially those currently in leadership positions) have lost their sense of independence and pride. Our current leaders, in contrast to those who’ve come before them, take orders from anyone.

 

I said that half joking brother, yes we are a curious people, and yes, we are naive, we fall for everything new we hear, but, my take was that we are unmanageable people. Those who have been appointed by foreign entities as "Our Leaders" are in reality governors, not leaders, they are not sovereign, they cant proudly say that they have Somalia's interests first.

 

Finally, you are also right that naivety and curiosity alone will not hamper efforts to annex Somalia to the regional Superpower clients.

 

 

Nur

[Castro]

Originally posted by Nur:

Castro bro

 

Your write:

 

You might even go as far as arguing the Shabaab don't even exist and are a convenient villain created by these powerful interests (much like some argue the Qaeda is). You see where I'm going with this, right? [big Grin]

 

That is stretching it little too far saaxib, but as for Al Qaeda, the deception is unparalleled, like they say, don't believe ALL you hear, and HALF of what you see, since the art of multimedia doctoring spun from Hollywood technologies to manufacture consent has been perfected. check it out here

http://www.alqaedadoesntexist.com/

So the Shabaab exist but they're being given a bad name and framed for these bombings. They are, you tell us, Allah fearing patriotic men whose sole aim is to rid their homeland of occupiers and their puppets. The bombs, you claim (or hope), are not suicide bombers but remotely controlled and implanted in the buildings by mysterious powers hell bent on keeping Somalia in perpetual anarchy. Once they go off, media owned by powerful interests fills the airwaves with false news articles of men wearing women clothes detonating themselves. Then someone impersonating the gallant Shabaab calls or faxes in a claim of responsibility for the recent bombing.

 

Does this not summarize your position?

 

You need to come up for air once in a while saaxib. Being constantly immersed in these conspiracy documentaries and articles is impairing your judgment, in my view. I know because I've been down that road before. What makes you think the manufacturers of consent didn't make the site you listed?

 

You said yesterday the killing of civilians by the Shabaab was a bad thing yet it seems you still support them. Talk about softly justifying the deaths of civilians as collateral damage.

 

Ma calayna.

[Nur]

Castro bro.

 

Brother, You seem to have difficulty differentiating the official line of the press from what people in Somalia see everyday. If your conclusion reflects your understanding of what I have written, then I must write more explicitly, here is what I meant.

 

You have assumed the following:

 

So the Shabaab exist but they're being given a bad name and framed for these bombings.

 

No, they are not framed, their actions are misreported, misrepresented, and at times, a blatant lie is spread of their actions, yes by the media that you feed on everyday. Allah SWT says in Quraan: eNuri Translation "O you who believe, if a Faasiq brings you a news, verify it, lest you accuse a folk what they have not committed due to ignorance, and later regret after finding out the truth"

 

You write:

 

 

They are, you tell us, Allah fearing patriotic men whose sole aim is to rid their homeland of occupiers and their puppets.

 

You've got that one right! I am sure that you agree that they don't have personal bank accounts full of NATO and US donated money like the hired guns of the TFG, Ugandan and Burundi mercenaries.

 

 

You write:

 

 

The bombs, you claim (or hope), are not suicide bombers but remotely controlled and implanted in the buildings by mysterious powers hell bent on keeping Somalia in perpetual anarchy.

 

If this is the way you prove guilt, you will never make a good judge, or a jury, trusting information provided by an opponent is not accepted as guilt by a competent court, specially if the information is provided by professional liars of the TFG and their foreign publishers who are on record claiming that there were no Ethiopians in Belet Weyn when the public was watching them move around town in broad daylight full of truckloads of Ethiopian mercenaries.

 

 

You write:

 

Once they go off, media owned by powerful interests fills the airwaves with false news articles of men wearing women clothes detonating themselves. Then someone impersonating the gallant Shabaab calls or faxes in a claim of responsibility for the recent bombing.

 

You must be kidding saaxib, how can you be sure of these unreliable reports that men wearing a woman's clothing committed the last bombing? the TFG is in war with AS, and as you know, men who have no fear of Allah, like the TFG have no incentive to tell the truth if its not convenient to their interests. You need to doubt about their motives, not the AS.

 

 

You write:

 

Does this not summarize your position?

 

No, saaaxib.

 

Killing of civilians by anyone is a bad thing, but it does happen in a state of conflict, accepting a fact of life, does not imply its approval, your comprehension leaves a lot to be desired, my advice to you, when in doubt ask for clarification, do not put words in someone's mouth, what you have written is misleading, and if it isn't poor comprehension, its plain dishonesty.

 

 

Didn't know you enjoy my Conspiracy theories. Have a look at this one.

 

 

Nur

[Cara.]

No, they are not framed

, their actions are misreported, misrepresented, and

at times, a blatant lie is spread of their actions

Nur, maybe we should define just what "being framed" means :confused:

 

Killing of civilians by anyone is a bad thing, but it does happen in a state of conflict, accepting a fact of life, does not imply its approval, your comprehension leaves a lot to be desired, my advice to you, when in doubt ask for clarification, do not put words in someone's mouth, what you have written is misleading, and if it isn't poor comprehension, its plain dishonesty.

If your only aim in this thread is to establish that in war, civilians die, then your intended audience must be autistic 10 year-old Swedes reared in a candy factory. I think by now very few Somalis need to be informed that innocent people get killed in conflicts. Instead you are clearly defending Al Shabab, who have themselves killed civilians. Everyone is waiting for your JUSTIFICATIONS. Here, just circle the right answer, there are only three possibilities really:

 

"I know Alshabab use tactics they know will kill Somali civilians but,

• They actually don't, it's the media stup!d
• They do but the ends justify the means (no, we can't discuss just what these ends are but it involves preventing the CIA from introducing SODOMY into Somalia)
• They do but killing civilians is actually not a bad thing, again the media duped you. And anyway how do we know these people are "innocent" civilians? Did anyone establish that none of them have ever committed any crimes ever? I didn't think so."

Pick only one instead of flirting with them all, then explain your stand. It's not an unreasonable demand, and honestly I could offer better justifications than you have so far.

 

But please note that "they do kill civilians but so do others like the TFG" is not one of the possibilities, since it'll just bring us back to square one.

[Castro]

Originally posted by Nur:

No, they are not framed, their actions are misreported, misrepresented, and at times, a blatant lie is spread of their actions, yes by the media that you feed on everyday. Allah SWT says in Quraan: eNuri Translation

"O you who believe, if a Faasiq brings you a news, verify it, lest you accuse a folk what they have not committed due to ignorance, and later regret after finding out the truth"

We feed on the same media saaxib. You do not have access to any unfiltered news that I don't. Recognize any of the following names?

 

Prof. James Petras

Manuel Valenzuela

Chris Carlson

Mike Whitney

Uri Avnery

V. I. Lenin

Gwynne Dyer

Robert Fisk

Jeremy Scahill

Walter Rogers

 

These are names of Western journalists whose articles you have copied and pasted in one topic. Now, what makes this group different than the "Faasiq" media I feed on every day? The difference is, this group echoes your preexisting beliefs. What they write sounds good to you (nevermind if its true or not) because you believe these writers are on your side and against the empire.

 

So your litmus test, one can infer, in telling genuine media from Faasiq media is whether you already agree with them or not. Not a very good test, you must admit.

 

You've got that one right! I am sure that you agree that they don't have personal bank accounts full of NATO and US donated money like the hired guns of the TFG, Ugandan and Burundi mercenaries.

Remember, I'm not defending the wicked TFG, it is you who's defending the Shabaab. Let's keep our eye on the ball.

 

If this is the way you prove guilt, you will never make a good judge, or a jury, trusting information provided by an opponent is not accepted as guilt by a competent court, specially if the information is provided by professional liars of the TFG and their foreign publishers who are on record claiming that there were no Ethiopians in Belet Weyn when the public was watching them move around town in broad daylight full of truckloads of Ethiopian mercenaries.

:confused:

 

If the media didn't report there were Ethiopians on the ground, how come you and I found out about it? It's not like you were there on the front lines. There were ample reports of Ethiopian sightings reported in Somali and Western media. Some media took the official line of the TFG and Ethiopian government (happens all the time all over the world) while others decided to dig deeper and find the truth.

 

Other than the obvious ad hominem argument, what is the point of bringing up this poor example?

 

You must be kidding saaxib, how can you be sure of these unreliable reports that men wearing a woman's clothing committed the last bombing? the TFG is in war with AS, and as you know, men who have no fear of Allah, like the TFG have no incentive to tell the truth if its not convenient to their interests. You need to doubt about their motives, not the AS.

I'm not sure, and incidentally, neither are you. Yet you feign certainty in your knowledge when there isn't any. I do not know that the Shabaab are god fearing men any more than I know the TFG are god loathing men. And again, neither do you. I judge either group by their actions as their motives are irrelevant. And surely you don't believe the Shabaab have no interest in political power. If you do, it would be hard to argue much else with you.

 

Killing of civilians by anyone is a bad thing, but it does happen in a state of conflict, accepting a fact of life, does not imply its approval

So generally, you preach, killing civilians is a "bad thing" but when civilians are killed by the Shabaab we ought to accept that as a "fact of life" while if they are killed by TFG bombings, they are collateral damage and it should be denounced. Do you even read what you write?

 

your comprehension leaves a lot to be desired, my advice to you, when in doubt ask for clarification, do not put words in someone's mouth, what you have written is misleading, and if it isn't poor comprehension, its plain dishonesty.

lol. You're still beating around the bush sheikh Nurow. Without resorting to this kind of childish rhetoric, come out like a man and say I support the Shabaab in all that they do and let the world be damned. You're not very good at walking this tight rope.

[Nur]

Cara

 

You have no dog in this conflict, Atheists have no place in Somalia, both the TFG and the opposition have pledged to follow Islam as the law of the land, if you disagree, please elaborate on why Atheists should be considered.

 

 

Castro.

 

You write:

 

So generally, you preach, killing civilians is a "bad thing" but when civilians are killed by the Shabaab we ought to accept that as a "fact of life" while if they are killed by TFG bombings, they are collateral damage and should be denounced. Do you even read what you write?

 

 

This is an example of what I've said. That you are dishonest in putting words in one's mouth.

 

Here is what I have written, read carefully again and see how different your conclusion is.

 

Killing of civilians by anyone is a bad thing, but it does happen in a state of conflict, accepting a fact of life, does not imply its approval, your comprehension leaves a lot to be desired, my advice to you, when in doubt ask for clarification, do not put words in someone's mouth, what you have written is misleading, and if it isn't poor comprehension, its plain dishonesty.

 

 

Read my lips: I don't approve killing of innocent people by anyone.

 

 

As for the reliability of news. Again, you are grossly misleading by shifting the focus on the news reported from Somalia to news about the Imperial powers by their own critics in the west. The allegations about the Shabab bombing does not come from the west first, it begins with the TFG, and then its echoed by Reuter and so on. Can one trust what the TFG reports about the AS? that was the question you have dodged.

 

Finally, Your choice of words reflect your character and personality, this discussion was not about taunting, it was intended to be an objective dialogue, but it seems that you have personalized the discussion. Take a fresh air and come back with a cool head saaxib, like Ngonge says, its just words on a screen.

 

 

Nur

[Castro]

Originally posted by Nur:

Cara

 

You have no dog in this conflict,

Atheists have no place in Somalia

, both the TFG and the opposition have pledged to follow Islam as the law of the land, if you disagree, please

elaborate on why Atheists should be considered.

Personalize this!

 

This is an example of what I've said.

That you are dishonest in putting words in one's mouth.

 

Here is what I have written, read carefully again and see how different your conclusion is.

I'm not the only who reached this conclusion so it's the message you sent that was either poorly worded or purposely vague. Dishonest? I think this qualifies as a personalization.

 

As for the reliability of news. Again, you are grossly misleading by shifting the focus on the news reported from Somalia to news about the Imperial powers by their own critics in the west.

The allegations about the Shabab bombing does not come from the west first, it begins with the TFG, and then its echoed by Reuter and so on. Can one trust what the TFG reports about the AS? that was the question you have dodged.

The more you write the deeper in trouble you get yourself. I thought it was the empire and its CIA, NATO, NGOs and mercenaries that are running the show. Now it's the TFG (the tail) wagging the dog? But even if what you say is true, why would the TFG be the first to tell lies about their fellow Somali and Muslim brethren to the media. Wasn't it your claim that the empire and its cronies who hated Islam and Muslims? Unless what you told Cara above ("both the TFG and the opposition have pledged to follow Islam as the law of the land") is hogwash.

 

Finally, Your choice of words reflect your character and personality

, this discussion was not about taunting, it was intended to be an objective dialogue,

but it seems that you have personalized the discussion.

lol. Characters and personalities have no room in this discussion yet you keep referring to them. I'll let the gallery decide who personalized the discussion.

 

Peace

 

Edit: Cara, you atheist witch, take it from here. Fidel has left the building.

[Cara.]

Originally posted by Nur:

Cara

 

You have no dog in this conflict, Atheists have no place in Somalia, both the TFG and the opposition have pledged to follow Islam as the law of the land, if you disagree, please elaborate on why Atheists should be considered.

Ha! So you are conceding that the evil TFG is really only different from the saintly opposition in their application of a shared vision? You know, I'm comfortable with staying out of this "discussion" then, since I've apparently done more to advance it than pages and pages of arguments and counter-arguments

 

Oh no Castro. I'm going to bask in the glow of my imaginary SOL Peace Prize for a while, looks like a major breakthrough here. Maybe I'll mosey on over to the politics section next, sort out those SLander/PLander boys

[Nur]

Castro

 

 

If you are still maintaining that there are no US and Ethiopian interference in driving events in Somalia for their own political agenda, then you have to convince me.

 

But, this thread was started for settling the debate on who was behind the last Mogadishu Bombing. Therefore, the incidence was first reported by the TFG, and their sponsors have capitalized on it immediately. the question I raised that you are avoiding was; How can you trust the word of the TFG for accusing the AS for that specific crime?

 

I take back my accusation of your either poor comprehension or dishonesty, you have just introduced another valid possibility, which is my poor wording which could be the case, if that was the case, you have my full apology and I am sorry for the statements, that possibility escaped my attention altogether.

 

Now, let us resolve the difference in opinion on issues we disagree about the AS and the TFG and the Conspiracy/Coincidence theories around Somalia. InshAllah, I will work on my poor wording problem, you work on impartiality in judgement, that when there is a crime, innocence is the default state, unless guilt is proven beyond doubt.

 

Peace

 

Nur

[Castro]

^^^^ No harm done awoowe. We all need to strive for improvement.

 

Originally posted by Nur:

If you are still maintaining that there are no US and Ethiopian interference in driving events in Somalia for their own political agenda, then you have to convince me.

Surely you know I never made such a claim. This site is littered with my views on this: the US is by far the single most important player in Somali (and world) affairs then come neighboring countries and their proxy agents inside.

 

Remember though, it was the Shabaab's conduct of the resistance that is being discussed, not who else is involved in the conflict, how they are financed, who did the most recent bombing or what brought us to this situation. All worthy subjects but not the focus of this discussion. The focus was the unconventional and patently un-Islamic guerrilla tactics (suicide bombings) used by a self-professed Islamic movement. Let's remove all other elements and distractions lest we drown in a never ending discussion.

 

I'm also still waiting on Abu-Salman who was to bring evidence that suicide bombing is allowed in Islam under certain circumstances.

[BiLaaL]

Originally posted by Nur:

Now, to be fair, if the warlords have mandated and legitimized the arrival and occupation of Somalia, are you suggesting that for the sake of safety of the people, and for fear that if they resistance groups attack the occupiers, that they would fire at all directions indiscriminately as well documented, that the the resistance groups should have accepted the occupation and laid down their guns?

No. An occupation must be resisted. I'm talking of the need to safeguard civilians in all conditions and circumstances.

 

Is the blame on both sides equal yaa akhi?

The blame is not equal on both sides. Undoubtedly, the anti-Islamic groups (warlords and their external backers) have done more harm to our country and people. And yes, any credible fact finding commission would reach such a conclusion.

 

Frankly, I don’t expect much good from the TFG and its allies. This is where my contention lies and it is why I’m not in favour of judging the two sides with the same yardstick.

 

I believe that the aims of AS and HI are noble. As such, I expect a greater level of conduct from them in carrying out their affairs. They shouldn’t lower their standards simply because their adversaries do and are more numerous than they. Should they succumb to such conveniences, they would be doing their noble cause and hence Islam – an injustice.

 

Finally, are the SOLers maintaing that AS doesn't face biased reporting really serious? It is naïve to contend that the media (including some sections of the Somali media) aren’t biased in favour of the TFG. There have been countless, unsubstantiated reports about AS. All of them aimed at staining their reputation (e.g. reports about AS removing gold teeth from residents in Marka, warning women against wearing bras etc). Other reports relating to AS’s administrative, political and managerial actions are even more common and, of course, more damaging to the movement.

 

Except for a few, glaringly obvious, shortcomings (i.e. sheer incompetence, haggling and inability to govern), one hardly encounters negative reports about the TFG.

[Castro]

BiLaaL, the TFG is manufactured by the West. Why would it receive any negative reporting? Remember, negative reporting on the Shabaab and other "Islamic" movements is made for domestic consumption in the West. In order to justify the unimaginable amounts of money spent on armaments and war making (one trillion dollars per year in the US alone), the public must be made to first hate then fear an enemy so bad to give up their treasure to defense contractors.

 

It's as simple as creating a villain (Communism served a similar purpose in the past) to scare the public in order to bilk them for their pennies. Nur's grand conspiracy against Islam doesn't quite stand up to scrutiny when you look at it in dollars and cents.

 

Negative (or positive) reporting is propaganda and is expected in times of peace or war. The Shabaab need to learn the game and play it as well as the others.

 

There is no point complaining the playing field is not level (militarily or otherwise) when we all know it isn't. Learn, adjust and act instead of whine, complain and react.

[Paragon]

Weerar kama dambeys ah ayaa Nur lagu hayyaa, Wallee. Isaguna weli dhufayskii ka bixi diid. Allow sahal umuuraha.

[Nur]

Paragon

 

Weerar kama dambeys ah ayaa Nur lagu hayyaa, Wallee. Isaguna weli dhufayskii ka bixi diid. Allow sahal umuuraha.

 

Wallee Paragonow waad iga qoslisay, laakin anigu sidaa uma arko, waxaan u arkaa iney tahay " Friendly Fire" . Marka laga reebo kuwa aan Islaamka jecleyn, inteenna kale oo Islaamka jecel waxaan isku heysannaa waa sida xikmadda leh ee muraadka Islaamka lagu gaadho, xataa haddey ila heleen xabbad ama hoobiye, dakano uma qabo raggaas, rag uu ugu horreeyo walaalkey Xiin, maxaa yeelay waxaan dhab ahaan u rumeysnahay iney Allah jecel yihiin.

 

Miyaadan maqal Allah inuu Quraanka kaga warramay Ahlul Jannah: " Wa nazacnaa maa fiii suduurihim min ghillin, ikhwaanan calaa sururin mutaqaabiliin" Macneheedu yahay " Waannu ka saarnay wixii dakana ahaa oo laabtooda ku jiriy, oon ka yeellay walaalo (isjecel) is lafadhiya fadhi iska soo horjeeda"

 

 

Nur