The Nail Of Juhaa

[Abu-Salman]

Some of us may have some points but we should not jump into conclusions, and above all, dishonestly establish links that Nur did not in his own reasoning; that is where Castro went too far (ie implying that Nur was paranoid, condoned AS excesses etc).

Cara, this kind of irony and exaggerations are all the more unwarranted in the Islamic section.

 

To highlight basics again, Nur is more islamically learned than most Solers and thus fully deserve to be listened with due attention as well as extra respect.We can only request evidence or Dalils, remind Nur of other scholarly opinions etc, in an islamic context.

 

On another note, yes, some scholars may permit suicide bombing in particular circumstances etc (eg by refering to instances of Sahabas jumping into enemy ranks etc); issues such as these are not as straightforward as it may sounds to the average mind or in the medias, thus the required background knowledge in Fiqh and other branches of Islamic sciences.

 

To brother Xiin and others, let's give Nur ample opportunities to clarify his positions and overlook peripheral matters (particular leaders, negociation venues, past mistakes etc seem almost irrelevant at this stage); it is my conviction that, generally, much could be agreed upon on how best to adress these Somali challenges (the biggest hindrance is mostly about egos and lack of patience towards unavoidable human shortfalls):

 

"imminent threats such as Kenyan or Ethiopian oil exploitation in Somali occupied territories, further acculturation of our occupied cousins alongside Somalis in the Diaspora, urgency of environmental and humanitarian challenges etc should be incorporated into the equation with their respective coefficients.

 

Whether it be in terms of Shariah implementation prerequirement, wider Da'wah or mere military logistics, the necessity for a consensual administration, willing to play the diplomatic game, is self-evident (few would mind HI or AS taking over if a coherent, unified strategy as well as reassuring PR were forthcoming)..."

[xiinfaniin]

^^Don’t complicate matters, brother. Nur is missing the point big time when he chooses to delve in CIA machinations to some how rationalize Alshabaab’s madness, and taint the religiosity of those in the TFG. Such naive and dangerous rhetoric where the sides fighting in Somalia are divided as Muslims vs. Kuffaar is what took the lives of many Muslims and enabled these youths to kill as many people as they could.

 

When we clearly requested from him to narrow the parameter of this debate to make it more meaningful one, he willfully refused.

 

No one closed this thread, and obviously Nur will still be able to continue with his talking points, but there is nothing of intellectual discourse that could be had here.

 

And on the question of suicide, I welcome anyone who can persuade me along with SOL readership that what happened in Beledweyne, Hargeysa, Boosaaso, and Mogadishu (and other cities as well) where suicide missions killed large Muslims executed by Alshabaab has a sound religious basis.

[Castro]

^^^^^ You must be off today.

 

Originally posted by Abu-Salman:

On another note, yes, some scholars may permit suicide bombing in particular circumstances etc (eg by refering to instances of Sahabas jumping into enemy ranks etc); issues such as these are not as straightforward as it may sounds to the average mind or in the medias, thus the required background knowledge in Fiqh and other branches of Islamic sciences.

Do you have any references to these scholarly works permitting suicide bombing "in particular circumstances"?

[NGONGE]

You two are allowing Abu Salman to confuse you with his attempts at being impartial. The story is about nails.

 

America's nail = Somalia

 

Nur's nail = CIA

 

Norf's nail = Sheikh Sharif/TFG

 

Xiin's nail = Al Shabab's shortcomings

 

Castro's nails = Al Shabab's shortcomings

 

Cara's nail = Oh she painted her nails.

 

If everyone sticks to his or her nail we may yet reach an understanding.

[xiinfaniin]

NG, you are being playful as always.

 

Awoowe, TFG has many shortcomings, and no one denies it.

 

What we have here is conspiracy theories that make alshabaab the only group who got it right in understanding what the world wants of Somalia. The rest is, from this viewpoint, enabler of that CIA agenda. Ergo Kismayo being the Sovereign Capital of Somalia.

 

Castro: Awoowe weli xammaali baan ku jiraa.

[NGONGE]

^^ I gave my reply to the topic in that original thread, saaxib. On this one all I see are nails. It does not mean that you are wrong or Norf is wrong (in my opinion), it just means that you have one nail that you hang all your arguments on.

[xiinfaniin]

^^I am sorry if you understood it that way

 

But we dont hang our arguments on one single nail.

[Nur]

Very interesting discussion. It would help if we can gracefully disagree, some of the comments by debaters I respect are uncalled for, let us keep our cool composure, the discussion will not please everyone, but we can still learn how different we are or think, which in itself is a good thing.

 

InshaAllahu, I will continue populating the thread starter topic, as and when I have time, so keep visiting the same page, there is a possibility that you may learn something you did not know, specially the fiqh component of the impact issues.

 

 

Peace

 

Nur

[Castro]

This discussion could be resurrected if you or Abusalman provide a legal Islamic argument (with the necessary proofs) that these "blessed operations of istish-haad" that mow down civilians are allowed under certain circumstances, as you claim.

 

Otherwise, lets exchange pleasantries and be on our merry ways.

[xiinfaniin]

Originally posted by Nur:

Lets get on with the critical complexities driving current events. And as I've said, our aim is to take an inventory of the players and their impact on vital issues affecting the lives of the Somali People. Once we capture the main factors, we shall analyze their interactions and impact on Somali national interests. The following is a non exhaustive list, please remind me if I have forgotten a vital impact factor.

 

Bismillah, wa bihi nastaciin:

 

 

Somalia's Nation -Rescue and Building Dilemma

 

 

A. IMPACT Issues

 

A.1 Sharia Law and Order

Independence of the Judiciary

Sovereignty and Territorial Integrity

A.1.1 National Security

Transparent Governance and Civil Service

National Defense

National Guard

Military

Police

Intelligence ( Criminal Investigation Dept. )

International Counter Intelligence

A.1.2 Islamic Judicial System

A.2 Moral Issues

A.2.1 Gender Issues

A.2.2 Public Decency and acceptable social norms

A.3 Human Welfare Issues

A.3.1 Public Health and the Internally Displaced

A.3.2 Education and basic skills training

A.4 Natural Resources

A.4.1 Oil and Gas

National Strategy

Law

A.4.2 Minerals

National Strategy

Law

A.5 The Environment

A.6 Personal Properties and Public Land

 

 

Players:

 

B Local Somali Groups

 

B.1 Xizb Al Islam

B.2 Shabab

B.3 Sufi Group

B.4 Warlords

B.5 TFG Government

 

C Foreign Stake Holders

 

C.1 US

C.2 Ethiopia

C.3 Kenya

C.4 IGAD

C.5 UN

C.6 EU

C.7 NGOs

 

 

Analyses:

 

I will begin this analysis with a question posed by brother Xiin:

 

What do the Al Shabab Movement want?

 

This type of question in the Arabic Balaagha, is known as "Tajaahul al Caalim". The subtle philosophical aspect of this question implies that Xiin does not not know, when its a given that he has already taken a firm position of what they want, with which he clearly does not agree with.

 

This type of question is usually asked from a higher ground, an authority of sorts, that has secured some tangible gains on the ground while a competitor, through violence is undermining its legitimate authority.

 

Clearly, the above is not the case, and in a conflict, where both parties claim to be on the higher ground, the way to mediate is to equate the parties and to force them to be arbitrated by a single Sovereign authority that they both obey. Logically then, it follows that we need to start the analysis from the perspective of that highest Authorities, which in our case is Allah SWT, the only authority that both parties claim to have surrendered to.

 

 

Allah SWT says:

 

"Fa In tanaazactum fi Shey-in, fa rudduuhu, ilaa Allah, wa ilaa arrasuul"

meaning when you disagree on an issue, refer it to Allah SWT "The Quraan), and the Messenger" (of Allah) The Sunnah.

 

Therefore, InshAllah, I will be mapping all the above issues and their impacts with the Quraan and the Sunna to see if we are off the mark or if we are indeed on the right track, Siraatul Mustaqeem, and not on the Siraatul Daalliin, nor the Siraat of Al Maghduubi Caleyhim, because, a lost person does not guide others..

 

I will begin my analysis of the problem by discussing the moral of the Islamic Sharia. The five kulliyaat, of which the preservation of faith is the most important. The effect of the impact issues on the preservation of faith shall be examined in depth, followed by a similar analysis of the other Kulliyaat.

 

 

 

 

...................To be continued inshAllah!

 

 

Nur

 

 

2009 e-Nuri Problem Solvers

We Attack Problems, Not People!

I have not seen this amendment to Nur’s original post.

[Nur]

This discussion is alive and kicking Castro bro. My objection, which didn't please some debaters was the narrowing of the entire conflict to suicide bombing. Suicide bombing which kills many innocent civilians is indeed a bad thing, so is homicide bombing by the TFG, AMISOM and the US, which is softly justified as collateral damage.

 

The thread was meant to be frank, provocative to address deep core issue driving the Somali uncivil war. In the last few days, I have taken pains brainstorming all possible factors and their possible contribution to the continuity of the conflict, and was about to focus on populating it when some nomads lost their cool and objectivity.

 

This thread is silently followed by many readers who also have their opinions on the issues being raised, which can be different altogether than mine and that of other debaters, and its for their sake that I will continue to populate this thread. Once all the factors and their impacts are accounted for, everyone can make their minds up, and difference of opinion is not always bad.

 

 

Nur

[Castro]

Originally posted by Nur:

Suicide bombing which kills many innocent civilians is indeed a bad thing, so is homicide bombing by the TFG, AMISOM and the US, which is softly justified as collateral damage.

That's all I needed to hear from you saaxib. The wretched TFG, its backers and enablers are not even worthy of discussion. The obscenity they have descended upon the population is there for all to see. They don't even pretend to be human when they empty entire neighborhoods, even cities, of its residents while killing and maiming thousands.

 

It is those who feign religious righteousness (the Shabaab and others) then shamelessly commit heinous atrocities that we are discussing.

 

Edit: Of course, if your argument is the Shabaab are being framed and given a bad name (a legitimate argument if you can show some evidence) by media owned by powerful interests, I might play along to see where you end up. You will have a hard time proving it, however, when the Shabaab themselves claim credit for some of their martyrdom operations. Unless, of course, you think those claims of responsibility are also faked by the powers that be.

 

You might even go as far as arguing the Shabaab don't even exist and are a convenient villain created by these powerful interests (much like some argue the Qaeda is). You see where I'm going with this, right?

[Malika]

Nur,

 

I think we are focusing far too much on the outside influence in our conflict,rather then looking within,finding where the rot is set.

 

The corruption,the deception,the selfishness,the in humaneness of our war can not just be about foreign interference alone..There is rot within us,what is fueling this continuous conflict lays within us. No foreign interference would have been possible if within us,there was strength.This isn't really science fiction,it is the reality, and until we accept that,and not dodge the issue with blame the foreign,use the religion card' we are not going anywhere soon.

 

Now so much has happened in the last 20yrs of this conflict,the divisions are obvious..unless one chooses to wear tinted glasses. How do we get ALL the players to lay down their arms,their ego's,their selfishness,their corruptness..How?

 

If we cant have dialogue,how are we to solve this?

 

ps. There is a Swahili saying that goes like this; kikulacho kimuo ngoni mwako - what is eating you up is within you.

 

pss. When we are talking about Somalia,are we also including the self declared independent SL,and PL? This is another reality huh?

[Castro]

^^^^ Yes, dear. Think of the three entities as a donkey and his two ears.

[Member-sol-]

To xiin/castro

 

 

It's naive to think somalia's salvation lies in the extermination of alshabaab, when it was only them that drove out the ethiopians yesterday.

Don't ask a question expecting a response that you will like. Brother Nur is trying to see things in larger context.