INstant exponentian increase in Soomaali literacy

[Safferz]

Alpha Blondy;990349 wrote:

seriously?

 

caajib.

Under 40% of Somalis are literate last I checked, we have one of the lowest literacy rates in the world. Even lower for women.

[SomaliPhilosopher]

Safferz;990346 wrote:

I disagree with the premise of this thread -- most Somalis are illiterate, period. Children in dugsi or folks on this forum aren't representative of the literacy rates as a whole back home, and the ones who can read Arabic are generally the same ones who can read Somali. As Che points out, the key issue here is access and enrollment in primary education.

 

But some interesting arguments here re: orthography and its foreignness, it's true that Somalis - and African Muslims more generally - adopted the Arabic script for their languages historically where they did not have indigenous writing systems, and those writings today are known as ajami literature to historians. There are good arguments for and against both, but I think today the Latin script enables Somalis to easily read and learn English, French and other international as well as regional languages that are of greater significance in the current global economy. At this point I see little utility in changing it, though sometimes looking back at the orthography debates of the 60s and 70s, I kinda wish the indigenous scripts like Osmaniya pushed by Somali nationalists had won out

I've always been a little jealous of the Ge'ez alphabet used by Amharic, Tigrinya and other Ethiopian/Eritrean Semitic languages.

 

If the use of indigenous scripts was implemented by the government, they must use the 4.5 system. Five letters for the Osmanya script, 5 letters for the Boroma script, , 5 letters of Kaddare for our dear HAG, 2.5 latin letters for our bantu brothers ect

[Alpha Blondy]

Safferz;990350 wrote:

Under 40% of Somalis are literate last I checked, we have one of the lowest literacy rates in the world. Even lower for women.

can you produce a xigasho please?

 

it's a little ridiculous to state random figures eh.

[magicbird]

Safferz;990350 wrote:

Under 40% of Somalis are literate last I checked, we have one of the lowest literacy rates in the world. Even lower for women.

Abaayo, where did you get them stats from? Because I just came back from the miyi this summer, and I clearly from 7-90 year olds finishing the reading of the Quran in Ramadan. Being able to read Quran doesn't make you literate? Its no less than 80%, mostly IDPs and refugees.

[burahadeer]

guleed_ali;990347 wrote:

I adhere to the strict laws of shari'a and comply my family to do the same.

 

In other words if this forum were taking place anywhere in Somalia you wouldn't be able to full express yourself the way you are here. I on the other hand would be the same on or off the net.

 

not so and since the people back home turn down sharia law, anyhow you getting pragmatic.....Kudos:D

[Safferz]

SomaliPhilosopher;990351 wrote:

If the use of indigenous scripts was implemented by the government, they must use the 4.5 system. Five letters for the Osmanya script, 5 letters for the Boroma script, , 5 letters of Kaddare for our dear HAG, 2.5 latin letters for our bantu brothers ect

lool SP We are talking about a time before Somalia became the hot mess of politicized clan difference that it is now, Osmaniya was the script adopted by a populist, pan-Somali nationalist organization, the Somali Youth League. From what I understand, it was the only indigenous script that stood a chance against Shire Jama Ahmed's Latin based orthography and those who campaigned for Arabic. I still don't know how the Latin based script won out though, but then again it was a dictatorship...

[Safferz]

Alpha Blondy;990353 wrote:

can you produce a xigasho please?

 

it's a little ridiculous to state random figures eh.

 

37.8% overall according to the UN, and the CIA, 25% according to WHO.

[DoctorKenney]

Safferz is partially right. The literacy rate is generally measured in one's ability to read in their native tongue. But that's the entire point of this thread! Most Somalis in Somalia are unable to read Somali, because it's written in the Latin script, but virtually all of Somalia can read the Arabic script.

 

So for the sake of conveniency, the OP is proposing that we switch the Somali language to the Arabic script, and this will make our literacy rate at least 90% literally overnight. A strange thing happened in Turkey back in the 1920's. Kemal Ataturk changed the Turkish language from using the Arabic script, to the Latin script. So the Turks, who were accustomed to reading their language in the Arabic script, were now forced to learn the Latin alphabet. The literacy rate in Turkey went from 80% to 0 in a single day.

 

So the 40% figure is irrelevant, because this is something we can all acknowledge.

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;990301 wrote:

I whole-heartedly believe that burahadeer and Allyourbase are nothing more than trolls, who litter this forum with their useless drivel.

 

So you're telling me if Somalis adopt the Arabic script, this makes them "slaves to their Arab Masters" but if we adopt the Latin script, somehow we're not slaves to our European masters? You do realize that the Latin script is foreign to us Somalis as well right? So what's with the double standard? We can't use Arabic letters because....?

 

Almost every Somali on this forum can read Arabic, I've been to Somalia and when I visited the duksi's, all of the little children could read Arabic. And the Somalis I visited had a harder time reading the Latin script than the Arabic script. You can visit the smallest village in Somalia, and virtually everyone can read Arabic. Allyourbase was caught in a bald-faced

lie

, he's speaking about things he knows nothing about.

 

But you want to reject the Arabic script because it's foreign to us, and adopt the Latin script because it's not foreign to us?

You seem to be HIGH on XASHIISH sxb,

 

I say this because you did not read the post quoted in my original post in which a compatriot of yours was assuming folk whom are for the Latin script because: "might aswell come out and say the truth, 'I'm a filthy adoon that doesn't wash his ***, hates Islam and everything to do with it, and I love being a slave to my cadaan masters'."

 

To which I replied, it must hold then, that those who for the changing of the alphabet to an Arabic one must make you slave to your Arab masters.

 

Kapish?

 

And as said above by Safferz, you can not project the prevalence of Arabic as seen among members here onto Somali speaking lands, pure lunacy sxb.

 

Also let me tell you one thing you seem to be missing, is the fact that we are not 'adopting' no Latin script, this is not the 60s , sorry to break this to ya, but we already have a script, and its been working fine the last 40 odd years, why you would like to adopt the Arabic one i do not know. It is not a language of science, or business, it is not an international language as such and the only reason you are promoting it is to get some divine brownie points and be more like the Arabs you love so much. I hate to break it to you but Somalis are not Arabs. The use of Latin is unfortunate and I would have loved to see an authentic Somali script, I would sign up for that, however using Latin scripts has its merits too, what with English being the worlds accepted language.

 

 

 

 

Alpha Blondy;990329 wrote:

Somalis folks need to have a true expression of Islam. the only way this could be found is through the use of Somali in prayer and rituals. why do we need an intermediary (Arabic language) to pray to Allah? Why is it read and only accepted in Arabic? If all languages are understood by Allah then all languages should be used in the prayer ritual, maha? the believer should have direct access and there should be faith for all with easy access!

 

This is so sad, what more is the fact that 90% of Somalis who pray are just reciting verses without knowing what they really mean. It is such a surreal experience attending prayers in a Somali Masjid, you see everyone reciting random verses of the Quran without much knowledge of what they are saying, repeatedly, day in day out. A situation which could have been avoided altogether with the permission to pray the Salat in your own language.

 

DoctorKenney;990341 wrote:

 

Fourth of all, you're claiming that Islam is "committing cultural genocide in Somalia". What is this "Islam"? Since when

does Islam require that everyone behaves like an Arab

? Everyone is different, people have their own cultures and languages, and Islam has nothing to do with that. You can be a Somali Muslim, or a Malaysian Muslim, or a Turkish Muslim. Since when does Islam hinder any of this? Since when does any Muslim have such a poisonous outlook over his own religion?

I dont know much about you or brother Guleed Ali for instance, but I can comfortably deduce that one of you at the very least is a fan of Arab skirts (aka dishdasha) and that little white hat they love to wear, maybe you like that too. I know one of you at the very least is rocking a massive f-off beard (waa sunnah). I know for SURE you do not condone the listening to of Somali music (waa xaaraan init? ), or attend non strictly islamic Somali wedding/parties (waa dambi dee), no cinema (waa lagugu cadaabi), no opera/theatre (waa fusuq). No appreciation for art, he probably would destroy the Somali cave painting if he could as they depict living creatures (waa xaaraan). I can go on and on and on. What does it all leavel? Someone indistinguishable from Arab bedowins from Hijaz. No sense of culture, no breathing space for the Arts, thats messed up sxb.

[burahadeer]

guleed_ali;990347 wrote:

I adhere to the strict laws of shari'a and comply my family to do the same.

 

I thought we already settled the debate that no nation is currently implementing true shari'a in it's entirety because it collides with the personal interests and political desires of their leaders. But the basis are there just needs some tweaking and I hope that the message reaches all of them the same way it reached the people of Quraish 1400 years ago.

 

[[[[ In other words if this forum were taking place anywhere in Somalia you wouldn't be able to full express yourself the way you are here. I on the other hand would be the same on or off the net.

]]]]

 

 

sorry for double post...computer cheating on me.

 

in your last sentence,,NOT so , people back home striding forward for complete freedom of thought as already exist WITHOUT insulting religion,,,but anyhow you getting pragmatic, KUDOS:D

[SomaliPhilosopher]

Safferz;990357 wrote:

lool SP

We are talking about a time before Somalia became the hot mess of politicized clan difference that it is now, Osmaniya was the script adopted by a populist, pan-Somali nationalist organization, the Somali Youth League. From what I understand, it was the only indigenous script that stood a chance against Shire Jama Ahmed's Latin based orthography and those who campaigned for Arabic. I still don't know how the Latin based script won out though, but then again it was a dictatorship...

I think the Osmaniya script only stood a chance because it was the 'script' of the Barre's ex-clan.

 

 

Anyways, I agree with the skepticism on the literacy rate figures in Somalia. I think these statistics undermine the presence of Dugsi and the learning of Quran. Perhaps since the Arabic used in the Quran is more traditional and exclusive form of arabic, these people who can read the Quran are not considered 'literate' because of their lack of familiarity with mainstream arabic idk. Anyways I think its naive to undermine the understanding of the arabic script in Somalia.

[Maqane]

DoctorKenney;990344 wrote:

My Mom "forced" me to learn how to read English when I was 4 years old. She also "forced" me to play sports. She also "forced" me to learn mathematics. But that's totally fine.

 

But when Somali parents "force" their children to read the Arabic script, that's a totally bad thing.

 

Wallahi I hate these double-standard Somalis, these inferiority-complex ridden Somalis, these self-hating people.

Authubilah

 

Inaar, marka hore isdeji bal, aniga shaydaan mi'ihi ee ha'iga cuudu bileesanin mida kale مَكُلَ هَبُونْتَهَيْ سِدَنْ؟ mise 'sidan baa kula haboon?'

 

 

 

Btw, When you say ''these'' , are you also including me abti?

[DoctorKenney]

Allyourbase, "saaxib"....you don't know me. So stop with the assumptions about any of us.

 

And I never stated that the Arabic script should be adopted in Somalia. I'm saying it's a worthy alternative and it should be considered. Maybe Somalis can use the Osmaniya script. Maybe we should stick with the Latin script. Either way, we should really weigh our options and come up with a decision collectively.

[guleed_ali]

SomaliPhilosopher;990363 wrote:

I think the Osmaniya script only stood a chance because it was the 'script' of the Barre's ex-clan.

 

 

Anyways, I agree with the skepticism on the literacy rate figures in Somalia. I think these statistics undermine the presence of Dugsi and the learning of Quran. Perhaps since the Arabic used in the Quran is more traditional and exclusive form of arabic,

these people who can read the Quran are not considered 'literate' because of their lack of familiarity with mainstream arabic idk

. Anyways I think its naive to undermine the understanding of the arabic script in Somalia.

Right on SP. They're more literate than an ivy league grad..... Literacy is relative, a blind person is partially "illiterate" that doesn't make him any less than someone who's fully literate.

[Safferz]

DoctorKenney;990359 wrote:

Safferz is partially right. The literacy rate is generally measured in one's ability to read in their

native tongue

. But that's the entire point of this thread! Most Somalis in Somalia are unable to read Somali, because it's written in the Latin script,

but virtually all of Somalia can read the Arabic script.

 

So for the sake of conveniency, the OP is proposing that we switch the Somali language to the Arabic script, and this will make our literacy rate at least 90% literally overnight. A strange thing happened in Turkey back in the 1920's. Kemal Ataturk changed the Turkish language from using the Arabic script, to the Latin script. So the Turks, who were accustomed to reading their language in the Arabic script, were now forced to learn the Latin alphabet. The literacy rate in Turkey went from 80% to 0 in a single day.

 

So the 40% figure is irrelevant, because this is something we can all acknowledge.

lol no, "virtually all of Somalia" can't read Arabic, that is absurd. How can you compare Somali to Turkish, who have a long history of literacy and text-based literatures dating back centuries? On the other hand as Somalis we belong to the world of orality, spoken word and oral literature, writing itself is something that only began in the Somali peninsula with Islam, and even then Arabic was limited to 'educated' elites and religious scholars, not the vast majority of Somalis. The challenge for the architects of Somali modernity - the post-WWII nationalist movement(s), the civilian government, Siyaad Barre and the linguists of the Somali Language Committee - was how to take an oral people and language and impose textuality on them through the development and implementation of a Somali orthography. If "virtually all of Somalia" could read Arabic, these debates would have never occurred and the choice of Arabic would have been obvious and apparent to anyone who participated. We are not talking about Turks who simply switched writing systems from one to another, we are talking about an attempt to completely change ("modernize") our traditional worldview and mode of communication, from orality (speech) to textuality (writing). To this day that transition has been unsuccessful, and most Somalis remain oral and "illiterate" to all writing systems, not just the Latin based Somali script.