Ethiopian PM Meles Zenawi dies after illness

[Somalia]

Chimera;859060 wrote:

The Islamic Courts Union WAS NOT Al-Shabaab! The ICU were 13-15 courts, with Al-Shabaab constituting only

one

court, with little to no power. The ICU was what the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt is today, the Somali Spring predated the Arab Spring by five years, only to be squashed by a paranoid America.

 

The situation of today where Al-Shabaab is a filthy anti-Somali organisation filled with foreigners, and one of the 5th richest terrorist group as a result of the illegal invasion can't be compared to the ICU period, who were pro-Somali and whose rule is majoritely characterised as a popular grassroots movement providing stability, opening various derelict economic outlets such as the seaports, airports and the destruction of the bloodsucking warlords. However in hindsight, I believe they should have never risen to power, because they had no friends internationally in the Bush era and the consequences of their removal would have extreme dire effects on the country for years to come.

 

But let's not rewrite history!

ICU's most pre-eminent leaders are Al-Shabaab.

 

1. Hassan Dahir Aweys - Head of Advisory Committee (Today Al-Shabaab)
2. Fuad Shangole - Head of Education (Today Head of Puntland branch)
3. Mukhtar Robow - Security Branch (former Emir, Spokesman, Deputy Leader of Al-Shabaab)
4. Hassan Turki - Head of Ras Kamboni Brigade (Aligned with Al-Shabaab)

Only Sheikh Shariif, Indhacade and an Addow left. You think the ICU was an organic group that didn't have foreign support? Lol

[Somalia]

Mooge;859064 wrote:

oh the innocence. macalin ceyroow and his alshabab was the most powerful wing which controlled the agenda of the ICU. somalia had its first suicide bombing in Baidoa under the ICU before abdulahi yusuf even lifted a finger and was holed up in baydhabo. it is all in the books. i agree with you let us not rewrite history. past is past. let us move on.

It was their whole fighting wing, they are trying to change history. Remember Ceyrow was killed first for a reason.

[GaraadMon]

Somalia;859066 wrote:

ICU's most pre-eminent leaders are Al-Shabaab.

 

1. Hassan Dahir Aweys - Head of Advisory Committee (Today Al-Shabaab)

Fuad Shangole - Head of Education (Today Head of Puntland branch)

Mukhtar Robow - Security Branch (former Emir, Spokesman, Deputy Leader of Al-Shabaab)

Hassan Turki - Head of Ras Kamboni Brigade (Aligned with Al-Shabaab)

Only Sheikh Shariif, Indhacade and an Addow left. You think the ICU was an organic group that didn't have foreign support? Lol

Hmm, interesting. I guess I'll have to do some more research on the ICU as I wasn't as politically aware when they were in the spotlight. I was under the impression that they were rather popular in Mogadishu at the time.

[Somalia]

They were popular in Mogadishu, there's no arguing against that. Their downfall was expanding into other parts of Somalia, even Abdullahi Yusuf welcomed the ICU in Mogadishu until they started going to Baidoa, it was when they captured Jowhar it was a problem. If they cared, they should have stayed and build Mogadishu.

[ElPunto]

Somalia;859066 wrote:

ICU's most pre-eminent leaders are Al-Shabaab.

 

1. Hassan Dahir Aweys - Head of Advisory Committee (Today Al-Shabaab)

Fuad Shangole - Head of Education (Today Head of Puntland branch)

Mukhtar Robow - Security Branch (former Emir, Spokesman, Deputy Leader of Al-Shabaab)

Hassan Turki - Head of Ras Kamboni Brigade (Aligned with Al-Shabaab)

Apparently the story now is that these folks were good people in 2006 and bad people now. Go figure.

[Shinbir Majabe]

Somalia;859066 wrote:

ICU's most pre-eminent leaders are Al-Shabaab.

 

1. Hassan Dahir Aweys - Head of Advisory Committee (Today Al-Shabaab)

Fuad Shangole - Head of Education (Today Head of Puntland branch)

Mukhtar Robow - Security Branch (former Emir, Spokesman, Deputy Leader of Al-Shabaab)

Hassan Turki - Head of Ras Kamboni Brigade (Aligned with Al-Shabaab)

Only Sheikh Shariif, Indhacade and an Addow left. You think the ICU was an organic group that didn't have foreign support? Lol

Kaliya waxaad sheegtay qeyb ka mid ah, aaway intee ku hilmaamtay raggi kale (oo maanta Dawladda ka mid ah):

 

- Sheikh Abdiraxmaan Janaqow - Deputy of Executive Chairman.

- Professor Ibrahim Hassan Addow - Head of Foreign Affairs Department

- Yusuf Siad Inda'ade - Chief of Security of the Islamic

- Abdilkadir Ali Omar - Deputy Head of Shura Council

... iyo kuwa kale oo badan. sida Dr. Omar Abdalla Ali, Abdirahman Hassan Omar iyo Dr. Hussein Abdi Elmi.

[ElPunto]

Shinbir Majabe;859076 wrote:

 

Yusuf Siad Inda'ade - Chief of Security of the Islamic

This fellow personifies the goodness and righteousness of the ICU - ie 'a popular grassroots movement providing stability, opening various derelict economic outlets such as the seaports, airports and the destruction of the bloodsucking warlords.'

[Chimera]

^The old saying: 'Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss

people' seems to apply to you Elpunto. The opening of all those derelict economic assets is a historic fact, it doesn't matter how filthy Indocadde's laundry was, the aforementioned precedents still happened. I cannot dismiss the current TFG just because dubious individuals like Sakin, and others are still clinging on to power. The structure itself - filled with competent patriotic Somalis trying to revive the country - is what I support and this sentiment was the same with the ICU, but not Al-Shabaab, who are unredeemable.

 

Somalia;859066 wrote:

ICU's most pre-eminent leaders are Al-Shabaab.

 

1. Hassan Dahir Aweys - Head of Advisory Committee (Today Al-Shabaab)

Fuad Shangole - Head of Education (Today Head of Puntland branch)

Mukhtar Robow - Security Branch (former Emir, Spokesman, Deputy Leader of Al-Shabaab)

Hassan Turki - Head of Ras Kamboni Brigade (Aligned with Al-Shabaab)

Only Sheikh Shariif, Indhacade and an Addow left. You think the ICU was an organic group that didn't have foreign support? Lol

 

What they became post-invasion has no bearing on the fact that they weren't so in 2006. The ICU was a movement with thousands of members, majority of the courts consisted of various individuals from Somali society, be it teachers, scholars, businessmen, community leaders that are non-existent in the structure of the current Al-Shabaab that is a demonic plague legitimizing its rule through brutal taxation and forced recruitment. A person that disagrees with the invasion that brought Al-Shabaab to the foreground in 2006 and discredited the entire aforementioned societal body is not a 'hypocrite'.

 

One could negiotate with the ICU, but one can't with Al-Shabaab as various attempts have shown. The situation in 2006 could have been resolved peacefully through better statesmanship and a visionary approach, but all of that was rendered obsolete the moment those foreign troops entered the country. Now their presence is a reality, and one we have to deal with, but when I point out that the ICU was a thousand times better than Al-Shabaab, I'm closer to the truth than those that parrot the idea that Abdullahi Yusuf was a nationalist with Somali interests at heart.

 

The dubious histories of the leaders aside, the organisation itself was similar to those currently in power in Egypt and Libya, and if Israel or Algeria were to dislodge those groups and more extreme versions were to replace them, would the Libyans and Egyptians be hypocrites for opposing those invasions and then accepting reality as it is? No, but they will keep pointing out the differences between the Muslim brotherhoods and the extremists each time someone tries to paint them as one and the same.

[ElPunto]

^With all due respect to a valued poster - your arguments are hogwash. One's Islamic character and wish to do good for one's people doesn't change regardless of circumstances ie Ethiopian invasion. And as someone mentioned - ICU staged the first suicide bombing in Somali history. If that doesn't condemn them - nothing will.

[Chimera]

ElPunto;859083 wrote:

^With all due respect to a valued poster - your arguments are hogwash. One's Islamic character and wish to do good for one's people doesn't change regardless of circumstances ie Ethiopian invasion. And as someone mentioned - ICU staged the first suicide bombing in Somali history. If that doesn't condemn them - nothing will.

You aren't getting my point, the ICU as an organisation can't be compared to Al-Shabaab, just like you can't compare the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt with Al-Qaeda. However if this Egyptian organisation were to be dislodged through an illegal invasion forcing their leaders to resort to more draconian and extreme methods to gain and maintain power, would that render their previous history of providing stability and having a national agenda as irrelevant? You would be basically brushing thousands of members of Egyptian society with the same paint because of the shady paths their leaders took in the face of a transgression.

 

All this to justify an illegal invasion? I will always condemn suicide bombings of any kind, but prior to the presence of Ethiopian troops, the concept was non-existent in Somalia.

[General Duke]

LANDER adeer to me Meles was an ***** and Ethiopia not a big issue. The problem in 2006 was that we had a choice between an Eritrean Coptic Christian leading the fake Islamist and Oromo groups taking over and deepening Xasan Dahir Aways and Co’s filthy occupation of the South or the Ethipian support to snuff out this group.

 

Melez once lived in Somalia and had his militia trained in Somalia. He was not doing it for the love of Somalia. Nor in 2006 did some support the crushing of the fake Jihadi’s and Eritrean stooges as a love for Ethiopia.

I have never been to Ethiopia nor even intend to, nor does one believe Ethiopia a basket case is something to have nightmares about. This presents an opportunity for Somalia, while there is horse trading we can get our act together and form a government that is allied to the west and minds its own business. That’s the one thing we can learn from the Marxist-Leninist Zenawi, be flexible in order to meet your won interest..

[DoctorKenney]

If I'm not mistaken, there were attempts made towards reconciliation between the ICU and the TFG in 2006, mediated by the Somali author Nuriddin Farah. However that didn't end well, as many of the losers who are Leaders of Al Shabaab today were also part of the ICU in 2006

 

 

If they truly cared about Somalis then these men wouldn't have acted in this manner. They are nothing more than wolfs in sheeps clothing

[ElPunto]

Chimera;859090 wrote:

However if this Egyptian organisation were to be dislodged through an illegal invasion forcing their leaders to resort to more draconian and extreme methods to gain and maintain power, would that render their previous history of providing stability and having a national agenda as irrelevant?

Gaining and maintaing power at what expense - massacres, mayhem, mass displacement, suicide bombings, beheadings, fighting a US backed and funded army in your already ruined capital? What sort of organization are you and what sort of leadership do you have that makes that sort of sacrifice to 'gain and maintain power'? Can you claim moral superiority, Islamic character, justice and peace, working of the interest of the people etc.? Come on.

 

I

[Chimera]

ElPunto;859100 wrote:

Gaining and maintaing power at what expense - massacres, mayhem, mass displacement, suicide bombings, beheadings, fighting a US backed and funded army in your already ruined capital? What sort of organization are you and what sort of leadership do you have that makes that sort of sacrifice to 'gain and maintain power'? Can you claim moral superiority, Islamic character, justice and peace, working of the interest of the people etc.? Come on.

 

I

No brother, which is why support for them today is next to nothing and they have to resort to heavy-handed taxation, international extremist support and forced recruitment to stay afloat. However you keep missing my point about the societal body that supported the ICU version that gave them legitimacy in the eyes of many Somalis. They do not enjoy that same legitimacy today for a good reason.

 

Similarly I did not support the TFG for inviting foreigners to rampage an already ruined capital, which are responsible for masacres and mass displacement. Only with the insertion of Somali technocrats with no blood on their hands did people consider the TFG as an alternative, and this did not happen until Farmaajo's tenure, followed by Abdiweli. These two administrations have given us a clear alternative to Al-Shabaab, much the same way the ICU gave Somalis an alternative to the 15 years long reigning warlords, which everyone here seems to have conveniently forgotten.

 

This is not 'flip-flopping' nor 'hypocritical', unless I and the people maintained this position when a completely clean Somali organisation with a strong armed forces and no international support was available to us, but there isn't and this is the best chance Somalia has at peace since the ICU, so one has to swallow their dislike for foreign troops and interference and hope Somali institutions are revived and beefed up.

[Jacpher]

ElPunto: To suggest ICU = AS is a little disingenuous. What you had in Muqdisho were three dozen ruthless warlords and their gazillion check points and ICU come about as a result of that. Now tell us how AS come about?