Can we have morality without God? Discuss

[Alpha Blondy]

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[Johnny B]

Or How can a moral person accept "god" ?

[Tallaabo]

Morality has its foundations in religion but yes you can be moral and irreligious. My atheist Somali friend is more morally upright than the hordes of wadaad isku sheeg who are illegally claiming all sorts of social security benefits in the UK.

[N.O.R.F]

What is morality?

[Alpha Blondy]

N.O.R.F;851135 wrote:

What is morality?

a set of values, norms and standards. not incumbent or merely derived from religion. there is a universality to it.

 

casestudy 1 - atuk is a young man. the year is 450BC. he lives in a remote island off the coast of haguta empire. hatuga empire is going through an inserrection of sorts lol. a new man who allegedly claims to be god is causing a revoution. the empire condems this man and sends him into exile in aluta islands. he visits atuk and his family. he spreads his message to their village. the man recruits many members of the village and very soon establishes an effective administration and jails all the tribal elders and demi-gods. basically this follows Things fall Apart plot.

 

atuk is condemned by the new man as a apostate. atuk is a moral person according to his values, norms and standards of behaviour.

 

assuming this man is the ultimate truth and his message is the truth, how will atuk be judged and peceived in the 'afterlife' which is one of the main tenets of this new faith?

[Alpha Blondy]

casestudy 2

 

far away from any 'civilisation', an indigenous tribe is discovered in the amazon rainforest. they've absolutely no contact with the outside 'world'.

 

are they punishable? becos in islam it says all must 'submit' to the will of Allah? what if the message of islam doesnt reach them?

[GaraadMon]

N.O.R.F;851135 wrote:

What is morality?

That's a good question, I think we all need to agree on what morality is first. The basic morals surrounding murder, rape and theft came about long before any organized religion.

 

@Alpha, that's a good thought experiment, apparently these people must've been visited by their own messengers according to some scholars, yet there is no evidence of any monotheistic religion in the Americas. Why would god be so cruel as to punish them for what they don't know?

[Sensei]

Some would say it is immortal to have no God.

 

 

Look around you at the work place, and how many godless moral people do you see ? I see few. Some are even more moral than many that believe in God. Humans are inherently moral, unless corrupted by their environs or otherwise. Believe in God, is ofcourse critical.

[The-freeman]

Can we have morality without fairy tales? Yes we can!!

[Wadani]

Blackflash;851168 wrote:

That's a good question, I think we all need to agree on what morality is first. The basic morals surrounding murder, rape and theft came about long before any organized religion.

It is impossible to agree on what constitues morality, given that its primarily defined as those norms, values,and standards a given culture upholds and deems to be inviolable. Since cultures vary widely across the world, it follows that morality as constructed by human societies is relative, even those often deemed to be universals, such as the morals pertaining to murder, rape and theft. For example, within a nomadic Somali context, killing a relative of a person who was responsible for the murder of one of your clansmen is perfectly moral and considered a legitimate form of retaliation. Outside of this cultural milieu it would be considered misplaced agression and a violation of basic justice.

 

Blackflash;851168 wrote:

@Alpha, that's a good thought experiment, apparently these people must've been visited by their own messengers according to some scholars, yet there is no evidence of any monotheistic religion in the Americas. Why would god be so cruel as to punish them for what they don't know?

For an athiest who is supposedly well-versed on matters of religion, whose detailed knowledge on Islam ironically served as an impetus for his eventual and unfortunate apostasy, i am surprised that you would be unaware of the basic Islamic belief that those who do not hear of the message of Islam while on earth are not held accountable for their ignorance on the day of judgement.

[GaraadMon]

Wadani;851255 wrote:

It is impossible to agree on what constitues morality, given that its primarily defined as those norms, values,and standards a given culture upholds and deems to be inviolable. Since cultures vary widely across the world, it follows that morality as constructed by human societies is relative, even those often deemed to be universals, such as the morals pertaining to murder, rape and theft. For example, within a nomadic Somali context, killing a relative of a person who was responsible for the murder of one of your clansmen is perfectly moral and considered a legitimate form of retaliation. Outside of this cultural milieu it would be considered misplaced agression and a violation of basic justice.

 

 

 

For an athiest who is supposedly well-versed on matters of religion, whose detailed knowledge on Islam ironically served as an impetus for his eventual and unfortunate apostasy, i am surprised that you would be unaware of the basic Islamic belief that those who do need hear of the message of Islam while on earth are not held accountable for their ignorance on the day of judgement.

Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.(17:15).

 

You'll notice I said according to some scholars. There are some who interpret this as meaning that these groups have received messengers of their own. Heck, there are some nuts who actually think that Cherokees are Muslim or a lost Jewish tribe.

[5]

Recommended reading: Simon Blackburn "Ethics - A Very Short Introduction" (Oxford University Press)

[Khayr]

What do you think of Plato's definition of Morality and it's connection to an objective truth?

[Khayr]

Alpha Blondy;851160 wrote:

casestudy 2

 

far away from any 'civilisation', an indigenous tribe is discovered in the amazon rainforest. they've absolutely no contact with the outside 'world'.

 

are they punishable? becos in islam it says all must 'submit' to the will of Allah? what if the message of islam doesnt reach them?

Are you asking if ignorance negates the law?

 

Case in point, X drives at 60mph per hour but the zone stated 40mph as the speed limit.

Officer pulls X over for speeding. X's argument to the Officer for driving over the limit is - I didn't know that this was a 40mph zone.

 

"Verily the hearts are not satisfied except with the Rememberance of Allah"

[Raamsade]

You're begging the question because your question presupposes that morality is derived from "God" when we have no good reason to believe that at all. Instead, you should ask: where do we get our morals? Now, that is a good question meriting serious discussion.