Freedom of religion should be encouraged in Somalia says Italian Foreign Minister

[GaraadMon]

RaMpAgE;848160 wrote:

Just as I thought, next its " give homos freedom", I see where this is going.

Not a fan of freedom of (and from) religion I presume?

[Raamsade]

Valenteenah.;848080 wrote:

I don't think religious equality can be forced on to a Muslim State.

Of course it can be. Abolitionism was forced on "Muslim States" why can't religious equality especially in the 21st century when everyone including even dictatorships want to appear as endorsing equality and fairness? At one point most Muslims believed, and correctly so if one closely examines Islamic doctrines on the issue, that to enslave fellow human was a religious right. But most Muslims today believe otherwise. Why? Did Islamic scriptures change in the intervening period? Of course not. The only thing that changed is the abolition movement which originated in the West slowly convinced Muslim States, albeit begrudgingly, to accept its merits.

 

 

 

Valenteenah.;848080 wrote:

Furthermore even in the 'free and fair' European countries, religious freedom and/or equality is somewhat restricted, i.e. you'll never hear the Eedaan in Europe, add to that banning of the hijab in some countries and previous campaigns to ban mosque building in others.

The Aadaan is "restricted" because it violates, in most jurisdictions at least, a pre-existing noise ordinance. In my own city that barely audible noise that large vehicles make when they're backing up is prohibited from midnight till 7 AM. You can't seriously expect people in pluralistic society to tolerate some guy wailing at 6 AM in th morning all in the name of religious equality. In pluralistic societies you gotta reach a compromise between diverse people and prohibiting Aaadaan is one such compromise. And no where in the West is Hijab banned, only the Niqab/Burka the ninja looking outfit.

 

Valenteenah.;848080 wrote:

Mida kale, dhibaatooyinka dalka iyo shacabka haysta marka la eego, tani maba soo galayso, waayo basic needskii iyo basic rights-kii kaleba ma jiraan weli.

 

I disagree. First, man can not live by bread alone. There is more to life than three square meals and roof over your head. Self-fulfilment, self-actualization, freedom of conscience and thought, etc. are equally important. Second, the reason we as Somalis lack the basics of life is because we lack something called Empathy and Fairness. We are not empathetic or fair people. We don't empathise with the blight of fellow Somalis as we see them as either "those Somalis from region X" or "the enemy of may clan." So, although we may feel for them we really are content as long as our clan (read: sub-clan) is doing fine. The same concept extends to the political arena as each constituencies jostles for a pole position without any regard for the weaker members of our society. Ditto for religious minorities who no body empathises with their suffering or supports their aspirations as long as our religious rights (Islam) are protected. If some Somali believes leaving Islam for Christianity will make him happy, why should you not support him? I don't get it. So religious rights and meeting the basic needs of Somalis are inextricably linked.

[Chimera]

Val, Somalis when they are a united people with a functioning society have nothing to fear from other religions or their missionaries. Remember that most of Africa was Christianised by the colonialists only a century and half ago, with their languages changed, customs and traditions changed etc, etc while in Somalia none of that happened, we retained our language, retained our customs and traditions and you could count the amount of converts on one hand, according to a contemporary of that period. This is despite the fact that the most military expeditions in Africa were deployed against the Somali people all across East Africa, completely disproportionate, but a good indicator of our sense of identity at the time, with strong family bonds and relatives living close to one another, not continents away. Today however we are a broken people and a broken country, scattered across the planet and with 500k orphans that could easily be influenced.

 

I say no to creating new dimensions to the existing dilemma of Somali divisiveness in the form of proselytezation. However all religions should be respected.

[Mario B]

Of course it can be. Abolitionism was forced on "Muslim States" why can't religious equality especially in the 21st century when everyone including even dictatorships want to appear as endorsing equality and fairness? At one point most Muslims believed, and correctly so if one closely examines Islamic doctrines on the issue, that to enslave fellow human was a religious right. But most Muslims today believe otherwise. Why? Did Islamic scriptures change in the intervening period? Of course not. The only thing that changed is the abolition movement which originated in the West slowly convinced Muslim States, albeit begrudgingly, to accept its merits.

Only soldiers [enemy combatant] could be enslaved in Islam, but the Amir had the right to free them if he wished so long as there is no strategic danger, or the captive could buy their freedom or be exiled or be killed if it were in the interest of the security [continuous war hence it is impossible to keep prisoners].

 

Any position taken by Muslim ruler vis a vis international treaty becomes part of the sharia i.e Geneva convention. So if a Muslim ruler signed for exchange and better treatment of prisoners of war [anyway Islam forbids torture] then it becomes religious obligation on his part. This idea people are changing the deen is just a fallacy. Pragmatism is Islam's greatest strength!!

[burahadeer]

somalis always been secular,still are & always be..just visiting stable areas tell you that,not an iota has changed.These fundamentalists running around r just a tiny minority bankrolled from abroad who will vanish into thin air.There were hindus,christians etc.

[Mario B]

^ Islam is both secular and sacred and Sharia was developed independent of the state. The governments job is to keep security and not micro-manage the religious affairs of people nor is it it's job to impede the expression and practice of believers unless they are endangering the common good.

[Mario B]

^^ Good question. The government can accommodate these type of preachers by designating an area [akin to speakers corner] where people of faith or no faith can discuss the in and outs of their belief systems. Muslim were never scared of debating Christians or atheists...Abu Hanifa, Al Ghazali, Fakhr al-Din al-Razi and many more Muslim logicians debated atheist in the mosque and other public places. For them this was an opportunity for da'awa.

 

But what our state cannot allow is proselytization of our hungry IDP's by predatory Evangelical groups or harassment of everyday people who are going about doing there daily business in the markets, mosques, schools or work places.

 

P.s The Mogadishu church should be rebuilt, probably by us. Islam takes serious the preservation of other faiths that the Prophet forbid the killing of priests or demolishing of place of worship. jihad is not about religious war but the restoration of peace and justice for all, Muslim and non-Muslim.

 

Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is God - For had it not been for God's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of God is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily God helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! God is Strong, Almighty - (Q 22:40)

[Mario B]

It's not theoretical niceties, this is our Deen. it's up to us to rise up to the level of the Deen if we want to deal with the internal contradiction of modern religious societies .

 

If you don't want to have a a speaker's corner in a public area, then The University Campus can be a place for debating neo-Darwinist or Christian expatriate [ given the Mogadishu will hold a lot of International organizations and diplomatic corps and their families]

 

As for the IDP's the only policy that will take care of your concerns is to relocate them to their empty home towns, once security improves, other can be relocated in the empty 20,000 square miles of arable land that we have in the south.

 

As for the returning Diasporas, this contingent will probably have a sizable secular and atheist group, they don't intend to proselytize but will do their utmost best to undermine the believers.

 

All in all, if we reconstitute our education system [spiritual sciences and worldly sciences] we will be able to deal with their secular and Darwinian world view.

[The-freeman]

Mario B;848531 wrote:

It's not theoretical niceties, this is our Deen, it's up to us to rise up to the level of the Deen if we want to deal with internal contradiction of modern religious societies .

 

If you don't want to have a a speakers corner in a public area then The University Campus can be a place for debating neo-Darwinist or Christian expatriate [ given the Mogadishu will hold a lot of International organizations and diplomatic corps and their families]

 

As for the IDP's the only policy that will take care of your concerns is to relocate them to their empty home towns, once security improves, other can be relocated in the empty 20,000 square miles of arable land that we have in the south.

 

As for the returning Diasporas, this contingent will probably have a sizable secular and atheist group, they don't intend to proselytize but will do their utmost best to undermine the believers.

 

All in all, if we reconstitute our education system [spiritual sciences and worldly sciences] we will be able to deal with their secular and Darwinian world view.

You sound worried MB; don't worry, the secular & atheist armies will be brutal but swift.

[Mario B]

I don't lose sleep over the likes of you, It's just a shame that a lot of people will fall victim of your ignorance.

[Garnaqsi]

Valenteenah.;848080 wrote:

The kind where missionaries are free to do their business and athiests can spout their 'I was blind and now I can see' speeches? (LoL...couldn't help that dig).

Weird dig at atheists given that it's a biblical reference.

[The-freeman]

Mario B;848540 wrote:

I don't lose sleep over the likes of you, It's just a shame that a lot of people will fall victim of your ignorance.

Oh I disagree: religious people such as yourself, are finding their claims challenged and disproved and are extremely worried . In times past such challenges would have invited bodily harm but that has been tamed in places like the West but sadly not so in many other lands where your kind still clings to power. And let us not talk of ignorance as I don't enjoy scoring open goals.

[sharma-arke451]

i don't think following is a form of freedom.

[burahadeer]

supposedly polite religious folks r the first to hurl curses for no otha reason than the given opportunity to debate clean.Thought they held higher standards for thmslvs than atheists!

[sharma-arke451]

ain't it a curse in action, denying a FACT? if not, then i don't know what would.