Timbuktu shrine destruction 'a war crime

[ailamos]

N.O.R.F;847613 wrote:

What I'm asking is, are they (those that destroyed the tombs) wrong considering those tombs are being used by people to pray to God through the dead 'saints'? This spreads ignorance when people copy eachother and pass on the practice to others. Who is responsible? Who should be held accountable?

Those questions hold a lot of weight, and they are the sort of dialogue, and education that ElPunto was talking about, that should have been instigated instead of violence and destruction, because the latter doesn't solve anything.

[ailamos]

ElPunto;847618 wrote:

There is no question that shrine worship and saint reverence is absolutely xaram and the worst of sins. But if you think that destroying shrines will solve this misguidance easily I think you're mistaken. If you don't try to change people's hearts through education you haven't really changed them.

+1

[The-freeman]

N.O.R.F;847613 wrote:

 

What I'm asking is, are they (those that destroyed the tombs) wrong

considering those tombs are being used by people to pray to God through the dead 'saints'? This spreads ignorance when people copy eachother and pass on the practice to others. Who is responsible? Who should be held accountable?

They are wrong full stop. These people pray differently to the destroyers and they have every right to do so; there is nothing ignorant about it. Many Muslims often say "Islam does not compel", I hope you agree.

[ailamos]

The-freeman;847621 wrote:

This people pray differently to the destroyers and they have every right to do so; there is nothing ignorant about it. Many Muslims often say "Islam does not compel", I hope you agree.

You're entering dangerous territory.

[N.O.R.F]

ElPunto;847618 wrote:

Norf,

 

There is no question that shrine worship and saint reverence is absolutely xaram and the worst of sins. But if you think that destroying shrines will solve this misguidance easily I think you're mistaken. If you don't try to change people's hearts through education you haven't really changed them.

I was highlighting the real reasons behind the destruction of the shrines (and others elsewhere). The media outlets are as usual doing a terrible job but they're not helped by quotes from the guy below.

 

My message to those involved in these criminal acts is clear: stop the destruction of the religious buildings now," ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda told AFP in an interview in Dakar

.

How are they religious buildings exactly?

 

Are you sure destruction isn't the easiest way to eradicate these ignorant practices? Centuries of education have clearly failed.

[The-freeman]

ailamos;847622 wrote:

You're entering dangerous territory.

Yeah, it's called Reason

[ElPunto]

ailamos;847616 wrote:

Could you clarify your positions here. You say:

 

 

 

Which is interpreted to mean that what certain Muslims do is their business and should not be attributed to the wider community.

 

And a few minutes later you state:

 

 

 

Which is interpreted to mean that there should be a consequence or remedy for what certain Muslims are doing.

 

So how do you reconcile your earlier statement with the latter? On the one hand Muslims are free to do what they want and you are unconcerned with their actions. On the other hand you think what certain Muslims are doing is wrong, and that they should be conducting themselves in a specific manner which you construe to be Islamically pure.

I think you misunderstand here. I am not unconcerned with what Muslims do means - that what some Muslims do is of some concern to me. Where you got 'should not be attributed to the wider community' - you tell me. Though generally - as a life philosophy - it would make sense.

 

Muslims are free to do what they want - I may or may not be concerned with their actions depending on the circumstances. It doesn't mean that I agree with them necesarily or that they're islamically correct. Your point here is what exactly?

 

*You can google new york times and setting news agenda and see what you find.

[ElPunto]

N.O.R.F;847623 wrote:

I was highlighting the real reasons behind the destruction of the shrines (and others elsewhere). The media outlets are as usual doing a terrible job but they're not helped by quotes from the guy below.

 

.

How are they religious buildings exactly?

 

Are you sure destruction isn't the easiest way to eradicate these ignorant practices? Centuries of education have clearly failed.

Agree with you re media and that *****. They're not strictly speaking religious buildings though some people have established a religious relationship with these buildings.

 

I'm not sure it isn't the easiest way. It seems like a very blunt instrument to a larger and more noble goal. I'm not sure there is centuries of education - clearly not the obvious result. I just want you to understand it's not as simple as destroying shrines to get rid of shirk.

[faarah22]

Lets just say Islam and it's followers are crazy!. you never hear of other religions causing such mayhem and destruction however misguided. africa had few UNESCO heritage sites and they destroyed the jewel. sad

[ailamos]

ElPunto;847625 wrote:

Muslims are free to do what they want - I may or may not be concerned with their actions depending on the circumstances. It doesn't mean that I agree with them necesarily or that they're islamically correct. Your point here is what exactly?

That's exactly it. Muslims are free to do what they want and that their actions is not attributable to the wider community. If the Islamic culture of the people of Timbuktu dictates that they revere saints, then so be it. Theological disagreements should be left to the local community to decide. They should not be succumbed to the viewpoints of purists such as Ansar Al Dine.

 

ElPunto;847625 wrote:

*You can google new york times and setting news agenda and see what you find.

I asked you how is it "well known" that NYT sets the news agenda in the US? Paste a link if you have to.

[ElPunto]

^let's just say farah22 is crazy and hasn't contributed one sane reasonable post to SOL in 518 posts so far.

 

I love the reason crew - they display theirs so frequently when Islam is the topic of discussion.

[ElPunto]

ailamos;847628 wrote:

That's exactly it. Muslims are free to do what they want and that their actions is not attributable to the wider community. If the Islamic culture of the people of Timbuktu dictates that they revere saints, then so be it. Theological disagreements should be left to the local community to decide. They should not be succumbed to the viewpoints of purists such as Ansar Al Dine.

 

 

 

I asked you how is it "well known" that NYT sets the news agenda in the US? Paste a link if you have to.

No the Islamic culture never dictates that saints be revered. Their local culture may. It's wrong of them and you or anyone else to claim that there is anything Islamic about such practices. How they resolve that is ultimately upto them - but there is a clear stand that the religion has. Ansar Al Dine is not a foreign phenomenon - it's other locals who disagree with the 'local' saint reverence culture. Whether their viewpoints are succumbed to - is not upto you. But clearly it seems you want Ansar al Dine to succumb to the local saint reverence culture. Interesting.

 

Google it if you are so curious. Just like Paris is widely known to be a prime city in fashion culture.

[The-freeman]

ElPunto;847629 wrote:

^let's just say farah22 is crazy and hasn't contributed one sane reasonable post to SOL in 518 posts so far.

 

I love the reason crew - they display theirs so frequently when Islam is the topic of discussion

.

Like shooting fish in a barrel...it's fun!

[aero]

I could really give two hoots about this to be quite frank with y'all.

 

How should I say this...as Muslims, we are to direct our prayers, forgiveness, etc. to none but Allah SWT. These shrines re-direct that main connection to Allah into a two-way path. They claim that their saints hear their supplications and intercede on their behalf. If you're very much familiar with the basic building blocks of Islam, that's full blown bid'ah (innovation) and shirk (polytheism, association of others with Allah). And with that said, destroy on!

[N.O.R.F]

ElPunto;847626 wrote:

Agree with you re media and that *****. They're not strictly speaking religious buildings though some people have established a religious relationship with these buildings.

 

I'm not sure it isn't the easiest way. It seems like a very blunt instrument to a larger and more noble goal. I'm not sure there is centuries of education - clearly not the obvious result. I just want you to understand it's not as simple as destroying shrines to get rid of shirk.

It might well be though. It might be the quickest way of stopping the practice and the quickest way of getting it out of the psyche of people making it more difficult to be passed on to the younger generations as there is no shrine/building to stand by or enter. There is no definitive way of dealing with this form of shirk but I can see why some think its best to destroy such places.