Hamza Yussuf: a Shik or a Suufi

[sahal]

Salafi-Dawa

 

I am asking you one last question BUT please answer me HONESTLY.

 

Have you BAY'A with FAHAD?

 

Why I am asking you this question is that i heard from audio cassete sheikh Rbic/Mahamed Bin Hadi Al-madkhali (Whom you call Great Sheikh) talking to SOMALIS and saying " We have A BAY'A with the leader of this country FAHAD and his brothers ... we're not ashaming to say this since ALLAH is not ashamed to say the HAQ, There is A BAY'A in our neck to WALIYAL AMR of this country FAHAD etc.

 

So, I wonder weather you were one of those Somalis who the Sheikh say that we had a BAY'A with FAHAD! and even if you were not there have you a BAY'A with him?

 

It's simple and straight forward, YES or NO and don't be shy since Sheikh said don't be ashamed to say that.

[Salafi_Online]

^^^

 

Yaakhi what is the meaning of this, Yacani if you think people are misguided, deviant, or simply wrong and that you have the upper hand, the Islamic thing to do is gently take the brother by the hand and tell him the appropriate understanding give him or her an alternative. Yaaakhi lets not turn islam into a game of “im better then u†then heroically giggling at their downfall. If I was an innovator, my aqeeda was deviant and I was persistent in my innovations, then you would have all the right to bash me as u see fit, but this is not the case. Im not a innovator, I didn’t invent anything and No I don’t have Bay’ah with King fahad or any rulers. I follow the law of the land I reside in that’s all.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Salafi da'wa:

Viking, Jazakallahu khair for the hadith,

but I think that was besides the point,re-read it inshallah,(his aqeeda and his manhaj) wheter he is upon sufism or not. that is the focus of the article.

Salafi,

The question of this thread was someone asked whether Hamza Yusuf was a Sufi. You responded that he was and the 'dalil' you used (to show he is on a "deviant" path) were that his students were made to rock back and forth during dhikr and also that he said some scents are used to cure illnesses. These were YOUR points and I was digusted by the level of ignorance you potrayed in quickly condemning a knowledgable person who is doing his best to spread Islam based one weak and one false assmuptions.

 

Then, you asked me "Bro do u know of any hadith that says smells can cure deasease(so please share)" to which I responded by sharing a hadith from Sahih Bukhari that adresses the issue of aromatherapy. Now that you know that according to our Noble Prophet SAWS some illnesses CAN be cured using scents, you atleast owe people here an apology (and ask Allah SWT for forgiveness) for implying that he made up a Sunnah.

[Rahima]

so i think music issue is not agreed to be haram.

Nabiga s.c.w already said that people would make xalaal what is xaraam. It is of no relevance for people to disagree on matters which are clear as daylight. The music issue is like the riba issue. Clearly xaraam, some argue it but it is baseless and not worth reading it (unless a knowledgeable person seeks to refute it).

 

its always best to double check a scholar's source if you encounter something u don't understand.

Yes, all the more reason for Hamza Yusuf (which unfortunately has a track record for voicing weak and at times wrong fataawa) as he is a only daacii (speaker) and not to the level of scholar.

 

All in all even if Hamza Yusuf is not a sufi he is not someone who we should encourage people with little knowledge (like most of us) to listen to. We cannot differentiate between right and wrong as far as the religious proofs are concerned and since like I said the track record of this speaker isn’t promising, why listen when there are so many other speakers and scholars who do not have such a shroud of doubt over them? It’s not like we don’t have other options.

 

Sahal you might not attack scholars by name, but basically when you make statements against salafis you in essence attack the likes of Sh. Albani, Ibn Baz and Cuthaymin which were undoubtedly amongst the greatest scholars of our lifetime.

[sahal]

Nabiga s.c.w already said that people would make xalaal what is xaraam. It is of no relevance for people to disagree on matters which are clear as daylight. The music issue is like the riba issue. Clearly xaraam, some argue it but it is baseless and not worth reading it (unless a knowledgeable person seeks to refute it).

If the song issue is clear HARAM as RIBA it would not be held in the Prophet Mosque in the EID DAY and also Wedding Ceremony (look at SAHIH BUKHARI).

 

Sahal you might not attack scholars by name, but basically when you make statements against salafis you in essence attack the likes of Sh. Albani, Ibn Baz and Cuthaymin which were undoubtedly amongst the greatest scholars of our lifetime.

As i said b4 I never attacked anyone who followed SALAF path my fault that i called them salafi i should call them MUTASALIFA i.e those who claim that they're following our SALAF.

 

With regard to the 3 ULUMA's that you mentioned, there is no doubt that they were some of the greatest ULUMA in our time and i'm too small to criticise them let alone to attack them.

 

What i disagree with you is however, to call them as SALAFIS, rather i would like to call them ISLAMIC SCHOLARS. and of course as other ISLAMIC SCHOLARS they had different views in many ISSUES which some of them are fundamental issues; like the MUSLIM who don't perform 5 daily prayers.

 

Sheikh Albani see taarikal salaat as MUSLIM, while the other two Sheikhs (Bin BAz and Cuthaymiin) see as KAAFIR who should be divorced his wife and not be buried at the MUSLIm graves etc.

 

The other issue is entering Democratic process and becoming member of the parliament in Muslim countries, Sheikh Albani see as KUFR action to join these parliaments while other two Sheikhs see as necessary to join the political process and to become member of the parliament enz.

 

on the basis of these and many other facts like American troops in Arabian Penisula, Palestine struggle, Niqab which most of them are actually fundamental issues, I consider them as part of MUSLIM SCHOLARS who can differ in some issues while they agree in many issues and not as particullar group. because if they're in one particullar group, as you mentioned, they would at least agree on fundamental issues.

 

Finally, don't be decieved by the MUTASALIFAH group who took them as an evidence and praise when they agree their agenda and defute them when they disagree.

[Final_Say]

salam all.

 

sahal, if you want to twist my words in order to offended ur self and others then be my guest:

 

i quoted u a hadith, which most people known, i also said that all sectors will be claiming to the one saved sector,

 

as for salafiya being the saved sec, yes in my view they are; and by that i mean the real salafiya, the ulumas, the true followers of salafiya, who practice what they say they are.

 

as you have said many people claim to be salifiya; the hizbu tarhrir is one of them while not believing in things like punishment of the grave. Everyone will say we are following the salafi's and we are family of sunnah and jamaca. this sorts of people i'm not saying are part of the save sec, Allah knows best where they will go.

 

i would never say that a muslim person is going to hell, i narrated a hadith to you, who i'm to say a such thing.

 

the other thing i will like to make clear is that i do not do everything that the salafi's did, inshallah one day i will, i will there fore not say i am a salaf; i say i am a muslim following the sunnah and the quran to the best of my ability, my examples and role models are the salaf's.

 

salah my question to u is, which is worse, obeying a none muslim or a corupt muslim. i live in London and i abide by the laws of Britain unless they stop me from worshiping Allah, if i lived in Saudi i will do the same, i don't attack Toney Blair so i would attack a muslim leader for his wrong doing.

 

There is xikma in obeying muslim leaders weather they are good or bad as long as they do not intervene with ur cibaada; which is it will lead to greater fitnah. A perfect example is, when the civil war in somali happened, and the leader was over thron, what happened, how many somali muslims killed each other, and how long was the country unstable for after, some parts of somali are still suffering the after shock. somalis are still consumed by dislike for tribes because they killed each others family members, what happened during the war and after was surely much worse then what was happening when he was in power. another recent example is IRqa, again my question wat was the point, what was achieved, is there hope for the remaining few or will they go down hill like parts of somalia. war and killing never solves anything, it just creates hatred, and destroys any hopes of people ever living together in peace. even if peace is achieved as the end results, the question is, is it worth having if you have lost everything in terms of family and wealth, and in most case after war people don't want peace they want revenge.

 

so my question to u sahal if the Saudi people raised up against their leader, what will they achieve, they now live in peace and the leaders do not intervene with their lives or there deen, so why create trouble for themselves by calling attention to themselves through bombs and attacks.

 

another question who said we can attack non muslims in muslim countries, let alone kill them and bomb their work places,

 

i don't care about what Saudi family does, or osman binladen. at the end of the day its you and allah.

 

the other thing is back to my original question i said should someone who follows salafiya take knowledge from hamaza yussuf; and i asked for evidence,

 

 

viki; in replying salfa dacwa used the work of others as evident; this may or may not be his opinion, but i asked for evidence. if the person he quoted was wrong then u will have to take it up with them, but don't take it so personally.

 

this is not to discredit hamza yussfu or attacking him, but a simple question

 

NB: sahal correction brother, on eid and weddings, LITTLE GIRLS sang songs which praised allah on eid and when abu bakar said the shytan in the house of the prophet and went to tell them off, he said leave them. in one narration when the prophet walked in, the little girl said "and here with us in the prophet who knows what will be" (order of words my be incorrect) and he told her off.

also when he did the xijrah,the little girls were so excited that one of them said to him if you get here safely by ALLLAH i will sing and dance for you, and he said to her u should not do that but u must fulfil ur promise, so he allowed her, while she was sing with the daf (which is a one sided drum) she heard omer coming and she was so afraid of him, she sat on the drum so omer would not see it and the prophet did not comment, if it was hala he would've encouraged her to continue;

 

 

also read luqman, verse6, and the detail translation, for example ibu kathir.

 

salam

.

[sahal]

Mizz Slander these are the answers of your questions.

 

 

the other thing i will like to make clear is that i do not do everything that the salafi's did, inshallah one day i will, i will there fore not say i am a salaf; i say i am a muslim following the sunnah and the quran to the best of my ability, my examples and role models are the salaf's.

This is exactly what I believe and what i want to meet ALLAH with, and i think this is what every MUSLIM should say and try to do.

 

I agree with you 1000%, you picked from my mouth and i think i said earlier similar statement in other thread. JazakallahU Khayr.

 

salah my question to u is, which is worse, obeying a none muslim or a corupt muslim. i live in London and i abide by the laws of Britain unless they stop me from worshiping Allah, if i lived in Saudi i will do the same, i don't attack Toney Blair so i would attack a muslim leader for his wrong doing.

Sister, you misunderstand me, believe me I am strongly against violence and killing or creating FITNAH in Muslim countries wheather in Saudia, Algeria, Egypt or Pakistan, but also i am against to be AGENTS of these corrupt leaders.

 

My view towards them is: If they allow freedom of expression we have to show them what is wrong through the means that they allowed. if they refuse that we have to tell secretly or outside the country, if they refuse and put us in prison no matter, as long as we are telling truth, if they excute us also no matter, what i am against to follow them where they're wrong or to keep quiet and not to show the mischief particullarly if your ALIM or DAACI.

 

This is the meaning of the HADITH in whic the prophet (S.A.W) said (the meaning of hadith says) "If someone of you (Muslims) sees the evil he/she should change this evil by his/her hands, if you can't by your tongue, if you can't by your heart, and that's the weakest IIMAAN .. and ther's no atom of IIMAAN after that".

 

i know it's difficult to change the evil in saudi arabia and in egypt or pakistan by hand but as long as i'm free (inside or outside) i can change that evil by my tongue which could be via radio, tv, newspaper, book, internet etc.

The only time i have to change my heart i.e to hate from my heart and not do anything else is when i'm in prison for example and i'm not allowed to do anything or i feared for my life etc.

 

 

so my question to u sahal if the Saudi people raised up against their leader, what will they achieve, they now live in peace and the leaders do not intervene with their lives or there deen, so why create trouble for themselves by calling attention to themselves through bombs and attacks.

Do you know how many Sheikhs and other reformers in jail today? they don't kill or bomb anybody, they just wrote a letter to the king asking him to stop the corruption and take some steps towards reform and justice but their reward was to be behind the bars.

 

Do they deserve the jail? if i ask

 

another question who said we can attack non muslims in muslim countries, let alone kill them and bomb their work places,

No ALIM ever gave such fatwa, those who gave such fatwa i.e to kill non muslims in muslim countries are the victims of the oppression of these tyrannies like JAMA ISLAMIYAH etc. believe me most of them were tortured in the prisions of these countries, therefore they're mentally ill.

 

 

For example those who are now in prison in Saudi Arabia without any crime except thaey ask the king some reforms, if they were tortured they may join those who are killing foreigners and police forces. it's simple as that.

 

 

I think i answered all your questions.

salaam

 

P.S. I forgot to tell you the songs that were in the prophets mosque in the EID were not young girls as you said but they were Ethiopian adults (HABASHA) look at BUKHARI. the young girls were in the wedding ceremony.

 

and the Verse 6 in Luqman is broader than to be songs alone (although some mufasiroun said that), majority of mufasiroun said that (LAHWAL HADITH) is every thing that makes you busy so that you don't perform your religious duty, BUT ALLAH KNOWS BEST.

 

This is only to show that it's KHILAAFI subject and not CLEAR HARAM as Rahima said.

[Viking]

viki; in replying salfa dacwa used the work of others as evident; this may or may not be his opinion, but i asked for evidence.

if the person he quoted was wrong then u will have to take it up with them

, but don't take it so personally.

mizzi,

If that is your attitude, why don't you take it with Hamza Yusuf and ask him directly whether he is Sufi? Salafi said it here, he should take the responsibility!

[Rahima]

If the song issue is clear HARAM as RIBA it would not be held in the Prophet Mosque in the EID DAY and also Wedding Ceremony (look at SAHIH BUKHARI).

The hadith does not speak about music as we know it, (don’t twist words). At the time of Rasuallah only the daf was allowed, other instruments often used today such as wind-instruments and string instruments are forbidden in Islam.

 

They are XARAAM and you know it, so don’t misuse the hadiths.

 

Sahal, this discussion like the hundreds before is not beneficial. I know who these shyyuukhs are and I know that they adhere to what is termed the Salafi Caqiidah. They may not call themselves Salafis as such, but this is what they prescribe to. Attack the salafis and you attack such scholars.

 

I don’t know why you feel like you are on a crusade here brother. I mean do we not have better things to discuss than quarrel about this. It is so tiresome, these arguments destroy this section and I’m sure you confuse many.

 

Enough is enough really, there is no benefit so let us move on.

[bilan]

rahima you did not answer my question sis, you said music is haram, some scholars say its haram such as those you mantioned, but i listened to qardawi, and he is equally respected knowledgable scholar just like them, and he says singing is not haram,but the content can make it haram, his argument is very convincing. he could be wrong or right i am not here to argue music is halal or haram, but my question is at the time of the prophet was there piano, guitar and other instruments that are used now a days? if so, is there clear hadith where the prophet prohibited muslims to use it? is there a hadith where prophet(PPUH) said you can use only daf?

[Final_Say]

salam all;

 

viki, sis, don’t get it twisted;

 

My question was:

“What I want to know if possible with stated evidence is whether the American "Scholar" Hamza yussuf is someone who's contributions to Islam can be used for personal use or for academic purposes to teach people. Is he someone that as Salafi Sunni Muslims we should take our knowledge fromâ€.

 

Could I possible ask HAmza yussuf this:

 

He too like billion and one people in the world will say yes I follow the salafiyah too…

Further more I asked people’s opinions and contributions on this not weather he is a sufi or not; I have my own views about that already…. Reflected by my subject topic “hamza yussuf shirk or a suufiâ€,

 

As for him taking responsibilities for what he quote’s……..i will not say no more on this, as I have already said what I think of that…..

 

anyhow thankyou for the advice, when and if I have the chance i will try and put my questions to hamza yussuf, i will remember to share his answer with you...

 

salamz all

[Final_Say]

Salam all

 

i just wanted to share this with people who have a funny uderstanding of what it is termed; AL WAhhabiyya or Salafiyah;

 

their creed is to hold fast to the Quran and the sunnah, to follow the foot steps of the prophet and those of his rightly guided successors; to believe and PRactice what was propounded by the virtuous predecessors and the Imams of learning and guidence, WHO WERE CAPABLE TO ISSUE RELIGIOUS INJUNCTION CONCERNING THE KNOWLEDGE OF ALLAH, his attributes of perfection and dignity as shown in the QUran and authentic traditions accepted by the companions. they believe them, withou ALTERATION, PERSONIFICATION, EXAMPLIFYING OR NEGATION OF such attributes. they stick to the way of sucessors and their follwers from amog the people learning, faith and piety. they believ the foundation of worship (the shahada) which is the root to aquire knowledge, acknowledgement and PRACTICE.

 

this was the foundation of the Saudi regim and the view which is held by the scholars of Saudi.

 

this is what SHIK MUHAMMED BEN ABDUL WAHHAB, believed and invited others to believe; anyone who accredits to him anything contrary to it, does not lie but commites a great sin and claims what is totally unfounded, they will no doubt receive what allah has promised to all fabricators of lies.

 

Islam is perfect and complete by itself, it does not need any addition after what allah and his prophet has ordained and what the AHL_AL SUNNAH WAL JAMA'AT from amog the companions, successors and their followers have already recieved.

 

the information i used to write this from INDISPENSABLE IMPLICATIONS OF SUNNAH AND CAUTION AGAINST INNOVATION; BY ABDUAL AZIZ BIN ABDULLAH BIN BAZ (rahimual allah)

 

sahal: i'd rather not have anyone in prison, unless they are causing people harm.... a little somethin that i found for u;

 

"help your brother whether he is an oppressor or one who is oppressed."

AL BUKHAAREE (eglish tran; vol.3,p.373, no.623) from hadeeth of anas.

 

further narration from him (no.624) he said the prophet said "help your brother whether he is an oppressor, or one who is oppressed.", they said "we will help him if he is opressed, but how should we help if he is an oppressor" and the prophet said (BPUH) "PRevent him from it"

 

also read;

reported by Aboo Daawood (no.4896) english trans; vol.3, p.1364, no.4878 in al-bukhaaree in his taareekhul-kabeer (2/102) isnaad is hasan.

 

 

i hope u benefit people

 

salamz all

[-Serenity-]

deleted by mistake

[Final_Say]

salam

 

words of wisdom enchantment; you concluded it well sis.

 

may allah reward u, guide u and protect u from evils with ur self and evil of others. amen.

 

salamz

[Umm al_khair]

Just to make clear the word salaf and salafee are not alike, Salaf means the pious predecessors while salafee are those muslims who follow their foot steps and tries hard to imitate the blessed Prophet in every aspect of his or her life.

 

The salaf are the first three generation, they are the save sect as the prophet Saw explain that the save sect

‘is that which I and my companions are upon today’

 

Allah the most high also said in an aayah

Indeed this is my straight path so follow it, and do not follow other paths that will separate you his path. (soorah al an’aam 6:152)

 

So the wisdom of allah mentioning the path of the believers in the perivious aayah and the underlying point of allah messenger SAW mentioning his companions after mentioning him self in the pervious hadeeth is that the noble companions are the very people who received the two revelation (quran and sunnah) from allah messenger saw who explain to them directly, without an intemediatry.

There is no doubt that the affair is as allah messenger SAW said

‘Indeed the one present sees that which the absent one does not’

 

for this reason the eemaan of the salafs was greater. And it is clearly stated in the hadeeth of the prophet Saw

 

‘the best of mankiend are my generation then those who follow them, then those who follow them, then those who follow them.’ (Bukhaari and muslim).

 

thus we cannot call our selfs salafs neither can we compare our self to them as our emaan can not be as great theirs.

 

However we should say am a salafee which means attaching to the understanding and the practice of the salaf saaleh, acting upon the previous hadeeth which orders clinging to the path of the believers, which is explained to be the path upon which the phrophit SAW, his companions and those who followed them where upon. As it is not possible for any muslim to independently understand the quran and the sunnah rather they must seek aid in understanding by returning to the understanding of the of the salafs.