is this true?

[FatB]

nur and others, i came across a hadiith that stated that

 

Abu Bakra Nufay' ibn al-Harith ath-Thaqafi said, "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'When two Muslims clash with their swords, then both the killer and killed are in the Fire.' I asked, "Messenger of Allah, I can understand this with regard to the killer, but what about the murdered man?' He replied, 'He also was eager to kill his companion.'"

 

has anybody heard a simmiler ahadiith?

[Warrior of Light]

Salaam the one and only,

 

Yes, that hadith exists. And its valid. It all melts down to the idea of Muslim brotherhood, we shouldnt harm each other and should be comforters amongst ourselves. We are adviced not to call each other bad nicknames, taunt each other as starters.. Why because in doing so you could hurt your brothers feeling or cause rancour to crawl into his heart - an opening to Shaytan and his whispering We should love and support one another. Because once anger, hate or rage sets in we (humans) can forget of our affiliation and take revenge or kill. Islam has strict rulings on this matter instead of taking revenge, it teaches humility to forgive or give blood money to save blood of another muslim to be spilt.(Suratil Qisas) As for those two who kill each other in rage both are entitled to enter fire. As there are directives in how to solve disputes and the first in any matter is sit, take ablution(udhu) and wait for the anger to overcome you. Then think on solving the dispute democratically including people from both sides. Its better to die without raising your blade than take that challenge.Its not about manly bravado, question is have you the right to kill a fellow human being and a brother?

 

Islam is practical and for man. It is against unnecessary bloodsheding especially if its caused due to mans whims,pride and desires. Sit, solve it compromise and move on, we are all brothers and deserve to live in peace and harmony.

 

And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allah and be not divided among yourselves, and remember Allah's Favor on you, for you were enemies to one another but He joined your hearts together, so that, by His Grace, you became brethren ..."Holy Quraan 3:103.

I hope this helps.

Salaam

WOL

[FatB]

so in essence, since the battle of the camel, to wats happening in iraq and falasiin, all those non inocent people who were killed are fire dwellers?

[Warrior of Light]

Good question and I beleive youve answered it if your talking of what Hamas did to al Fatah, The Iraqi Muslims helping the americans fight fellow Iraqi Muslims.Though a group of people will always be innocent, the old, women and children.

[Nur]

This Hadeeth is Genuine, I cant recall the sanad now.

 

But the moral of the hadeeth is about the NIYAH domain. When two Muslims fight each one ( mutually ) having a premeditated intention to kill the other due to a dispute for a worldly gain, pride ( each one thinking he is better than the other).

 

In This Hadeeth, the victim bears as much sin as the killer because of a premeditated niyah intention to kill the other.

 

In a fight We have several scenarios:

 

1. They were both mutually intending to kill the other.

 

2. One of them was intending to kill the other, the other was only defending himself or trying to disable the attacker.

 

3. They were both trying to hurt each other but not to kill each other.

 

 

The Hadeeth holds applicable in the first case only due to mutual premeditated intention to commit a capital crime.

 

 

Walllaahu Aclam.

 

 

Nur

[N.O.R.F]

Question:

 

When one Muslim feels he is defending his land and his people (as per Islamic terms and conditions) fights against a fellow Muslim who is aiding the invasion of non-Muslim forces, what is the situation here?

[Nur]

Northerner bro.

 

Its not that simple, not a black and white.

 

Here are possibilities.

 

1. A person who has a right, but going about it the right way.

2. Person who has a right, going about it the wrong way.

3. Person who has NO right going about it the right way.

4. Person who has NO right, going about it the wrong way

 

 

Rights in Islam are covered in the Fiqh and Aqeedah.

Methods to get ones right back are also governed by the islamic Fiqh based on Usuulul Fiqh and Aqeedah.

 

There is another dimension to the equations above.

 

Knowledge and Ignorance, adding this dimension to the matrix above will become nine possibilities.

 

Now, can ignorance of the aqeedah priciples that guide a person for taking the right or wrong actions, become an excuse?

 

Well, the Scholars agree that ignorance of aqeedah principles are not an excuse, specially if the knowledge is available and in circulation. The only excuse of ignorance of aqeedah issues that guide actions is when the person has no access for that knowledge, but is in agreement of the basic tawheed tenets that Sovreignty is for Allah alone with full understanding of its meaning and confirming his acceptance of its terms.

 

Now, based on the above, you tell us what is their judgement!

 

 

Nur

[Warrior of Light]

Salaam,

Bro Nur JZK for putting it in perspective and clarity. Another and better way of looking at the problem, asante Akhi.

[N.O.R.F]

Nur

 

The rights of the people were non-existent. I think this can be classed as a dispute between the people and those who had a stranglehold on them (criminals) rather than a dispute between the people and a ruler. The people fought for their rights and in the process killed other Muslims who fought for those who withheld those rights from them.

 

Is this classed as:

 

Person who has a right, going about it the wrong way?

 

Rulings on people who cause miischief on the land also come into play here right?

[Nur]

Northern brother

 

The rights of a person or a people exists withe their existence, its given by Allah the sovreign who gave them life and faith. There is no such thing such as a NON Existent right.

 

Now, in the case when two " Muslims" fight each other, and each one thinks he has the right, then the case will be settled in the day of judgement by Allah's court. Allah knows the NIYAH, so like Qabil and Habil ( Cain and Abel), he will judge accordingly.

 

 

Nur

[N.O.R.F]

Akhi Nur

 

By rights of the people being non-existant i meant their rights were being curtailed by criminals etc in that city/area. Their rights exist but they were not able to practice those rights due to the curcumstances. Hence why they sought those rights.

 

You are right. Allah SWT will judge accordingly.

[Khayr]

But the moral of the hadeeth is about the

NIYAH

domain. When two Muslims fight each one ( mutually ) having a premeditated intention to kill the other due to a dispute for a worldly gain, pride ( each one thinking he is better than the other).

I agree and the niyah does manifest in a person's actions and methodology.

 

Siding with kufar over muslims and saying that your Niyah is for Allah is Hypocrasy/Nifaq.

 

Wanting the rule of Jahil over the Shariah and killing other muslims for that reason is Hypocrasy.

 

Blowing up buildings and masajids and betraying the precepts of the Shariah is Dhulum. The Niyah can't be right because you would be afraid of your actions in the qiyamah about your dhulum/wrongdoing.

 

Here are possibilities.

 

1. A person who has a right, but going about it the right way.

2. Person who has a right, going about it the wrong way.

3. Person who has NO right going about it the right way.

4. Person who has NO right, going about it the wrong way

All these scenarious are centered on 'Personal Rights', thus stem from an individual centered outlook. If God's rights are being violated to justify your Personal Rights, then you are a dhalim/unjust person.

 

I would argue that in most of these jihadist movements, mixed intentions run rumbant among the masses and within their Ulama e.g. Hamas considers Arab Nationalism as a Tool that should be used to unite the Palestinians.

 

 

It all melts down to the idea of Muslim brotherhood, we shouldnt harm each other and should be comforters amongst ourselves. We are adviced not to call each other bad nicknames, taunt each other as starters.. Why because in doing so you could hurt your brothers feeling or cause rancour to crawl into his heart - an opening to Shaytan and his whispering We should love and support one another. Because once anger, hate or rage sets in we (humans) can forget of our affiliation and take revenge or kill. Islam has strict rulings on this matter instead of taking revenge, it teaches humility to forgive or give blood money to save blood of another muslim to be spilt.(Suratil Qisas)

Easier said then done because ghaflah/forgetfulness and lack of awareness of Allah runs rampant in all of us and we often put our own 'INDIVIDUAL RIGHT' about the TRUTH. i.e. Haqqi/my right, haqqi at all costs...

 

Once the sword is raised among the muslims it will never be put down unil the Qiyamah

[Nur]

Kheir bro.

 

This thread was to discuss issues from an intellectual point of view, not to judge, personally I have my own judgements on every issue being discussed, but like a panel of Medical Doctors discussing the origin of deseases, we should be momentarily be removed from the issues, otherwise it will not be objective discussion, a problem is not solved at the level it was created.

 

Now, in my past Aqeedah posts, I have discussed the connection of Niyah, and actions and Nifaaq, in the old thread titled " Am I Munafiq"

 

The issue in this thread is about the application of the hadeeth of the Prophet SAWS when two Muslims, with mutual intention to kill each other.

 

We must not complicate it with other aqeedah issues such as Walaa dn baraa at this stage, because it will change the entire discussion about the hadeeth.

 

We are only talking about a simple issue of two muslims trying to kill each other.

 

Now if you want to add another dimension of one of them being a soldier for the Satan, then, clearly that is not what the hadeeth is talking about.

 

What we need to structure are four things;

 

1.Driver of an action (Niyah )

2. Rights ( Al Xuquuq)

3. Venues to settlement ( Taxaakum)

4. Knowledge of the impact of an action ( ie Crime) ( Al Cudr Bil Jahl)

 

The question is how can those above factors affect the ligitimacy of the two Muslims figting each other?

 

 

Nur