Shocking! what happened to our culture

[The-freeman]

I'd rather Somalis are Westernised than Arabised- one leads to progress the other to nothingness. These two people look like they are being normal.

[Aaliyyah]

^ they are married and they have the right to do whatever they want. And, no one should be judging them. However, it would have been more decent for them to not kiss front of people in public - diinti iyo dhaqankaba waa kasoo horjeeda waxay wadaan. I wouldn't say it is haraam but most likely "makruuh"

With that been said, those who are wasting their time insulting people they dont even know are probably collecting danbi themselves.

 

I need to ask,how you came to this conclusion about Somalis being westernized means they are reaching progress? that part just ticked me off. Do elaborate..and when I hear the word "westernized" it means to me copying the culture of the westerners. How is leaving your culture for another progress? siiba culture that contradicts many of our islamic values? although I am sure not everything that is westernized is against islam many or mostly are. bal ii sharax waxaad uga jeedid.

[The-freeman]

Aaliyyah;846744 wrote:

^ they are married and they have the right to do whatever they want. And, no one should be judging them. However, it would have been more decent for them to not kiss front of people in public - diinti iyo dhaqankaba waa kasoo horjeeda waxay wadaan. I wouldn't say it is haraam but most likely "makruuh"

With that been said, those who are wasting their time insulting people they dont even know are probably collecting danbi themselves.

 

I need to ask,how you came to this conclusion about Somalis being westernized means they are reaching progress? that part just ticked me off. Do elaborate..and when I hear the word "westernized" it means to me copying the culture of the westerners. How is leaving your culture for another progress? siiba culture that contradicts many of our islamic values? although I am sure not everything that is westernized is against islam many or mostly are. bal ii sharax waxaad uga jeedid.

In reply to your second paragraph- it is true that our culture has already been weakened in the last twenty years. To me, Somali culture has been systematically replaced by Arabian culture under the guise of Islam. So my point is this, since it appears, as Somalis, we're willing to discard our culture so easily, we might as well trade it for a culture which is, in some senses, superior to ours.

[Aaliyyah]

^ our culture has not weakened in the last 20 years walaal. But, somalis become more educated about islam, and of course for that reason they might have discarded whatever that was in our culture that opposed islamic teachings. For instance, you will find both back home and abroad ladies wearing jalbaab or abaya that mr Freeman is not taking arab culture but practicing islam. As for the western culture being superior to our culture? I guess my question still stands in what way is the western culture superior?

[The-freeman]

Aaliyyah;846747 wrote:

^ our culture has not weakened in the last 20 years walaal. But, somalis become more educated about islam, and of course for that reason they might have discarded whatever that was in our culture that opposed islamic teachings. For instance, you will find both back home and abroad ladies wearing jalbaab or abaya that mr Freeman is not taking arab culture but practicing islam. As for the western culture being superior to our culture? I guess my question still stands

in what way is the western culture superior?

My favourite is freedom of religion- I like the fact that people are allowed to practice and build temples for their insane believes (case in point, Scientology).

[Aaliyyah]

^ First your argument was about culture, but now it is about religion? so you want people in Somalia to have the right to practice whatever they want? isn't there non-muslims in somalia as we speak like members of some kind of humanitarian organizations and does anyone force islam on them? there is no compulsion in islam, you know that right..

Inshallah we will talk some more tomorrow, it is getting rather late at my end.

 

salaam

[The-freeman]

Aaliyyah;846749 wrote:

^ First your argument was about culture, but now it is about religion? so you want people in Somalia to have the right to practice whatever they want? isn't there non-muslims in somalia as we speak like members of some kind of humanitarian organizations and does anyone force islam on them? there is no compulsion in islam, you know that right..

Inshallah we will talk some more tomorrow, it is getting rather late at my end.

 

salaam

That was just an example of Western cultural attribute, I was not starting a new debate. Culture is defined as "the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group" :http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/culture

 

 

And the fact that NGO workers are not forced into Islam is not the same as allowing Mosques,churches,temples etc, being allowed to exist freely.

As a Muslim, you must surely be happy that Muslims are allowed to build mosques and practice their religion freely in Western countries? if yes then do you accept the establishment of temples,churches etc, in places like Somalia or, dare I say it, Saudi Arabia?

[wyre]

Another One In The List

[The-freeman]

wyre;846758 wrote:

Another One In The List

Oh boy, I hope the prize is good, I'm pretty broke!!

[Showqi]

The-freeman;846752 wrote:

That was just an example of Western cultural attribute, I was not starting a new debate. Culture is defined as

"the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group"

:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/culture

 

 

And the fact that NGO workers are not forced into Islam is not the same as allowing Mosques,churches,temples etc, being allowed to exist freely.

As a Muslim, you must surely be happy that Muslims are allowed to build mosques and practice their religion freely in Western countries? if yes then do you accept the establishment of temples,churches etc, in places like Somalia or, dare I say it, Saudi Arabia?

Freeman, as we all know Somalia has been with out a government for the past 21 years, but if you do remember in the 80s and the begin of the 90s Mogadishu had a church where Christians attended every Sundays, and where they use to have weddings during the weekdays. The Hindus and Sikhs had their spacial graveyard in the district of Hawlwadaag where they use to bury their people . We alwas respected the foreigners and left them alone with their religions and their beliefs. We never bothered them and they were allowed to do as they please, as long as they did not bothered the Islam religion, and did not tried to convert Somali people. Its only now that we see so many Somalis converted to Christianity and Atheist. Soomaalidu waligeed diintooda iyo dhaqankooda way ku adkeyd intii ka horeysay 1991kii. Iminka markii jinsiyadaha kale la qaatay ayaa diintii iyo dhaqankii laga tagay. Caku iyo dowlad la aan nimo. Waxaas oo dhan waxaa u sabab ah dowladeenii burburtay aawadeed.

[The-freeman]

Showqi;846788 wrote:

Freeman, as we all know Somalia has been with out a government for the past 21 years, but if you do remember in the 80s and the begin of the 90s Mogadishu had a church where Christians attended every Sundays, and where they use to have weddings during the weekdays. The Hindus and Sikhs had their spacial graveyard in the district of Hawlwadaag where they use to bury their people . We alwas respected the foreigners and left them alone with their religions and their beliefs. We never bothered them and they were allowed to do as they please, as long as they did not bothered the Islam religion, and did not tried to convert Somali people. Its only now that we see so many Somalis converted to Christianity and Atheist. Soomaalidu waligeed diintooda iyo dhaqankooda way ku adkeyd intii ka horeysay 1991kii. Iminka markii jinsiyadaha kale la qaatay ayaa diintii iyo dhaqankii laga tagay. Caku iyo dowlad la aan nimo. Waxaas oo dhan waxaa u sabab ah dowladeenii burburtay aawadeed.

 

The socialist regime separated religion from politics (something it must be commended for), that is why all those people you mention were respected. I doubt we will witness such a separation in the future.

[Aaliyyah]

Culture and religion are not the same. I can have the same religion as a group of people where our culture can vary depending where we came from.

 

With that being said, you seem to be holding the western culture on a pedestal. When in fact the west is a crumbling society ( deteriorating family values, homosexuality, social injustice, masked poverty, increasing national debts, corruption, the ineptitude of politicians, increasing abortion rates, decreased moral values – aggressive foreign policy, media portraying negative images and opinion of other countries, foreign aid that solidifies the stagnation of second/third world countries.)

 

Coming back to your questions. The building of churches is a right that belongs to the Christians and Islam does not impede on that right. I believe you should do some research before painting all Muslim countries with the same brush. Many Muslim countries allow Christians to have churches. You have to learn your facts thoroughly before insinuating such assumptions. And the fact that some Muslim countries don’t have churches it does not necessarily mean they don’t allow it. However, if that is the case, then it does not reflect on the teachings of Islam. You should read the following, it will shed some light on this issue.

 

 

In 628 AD, a delegation from St. Catherine’s Monastery came to Prophet Muhammed and requested his protection. He responded by granting them a charter of rights, which I reproduce below in its entirety. St. Catherine’s Monastery is located at the foot of Mt. Sinai and is the world’s oldest monastery. It possess a huge collection of Christian manuscripts, second only to the Vatican, and is a world heritage site. It also boasts the oldest collection of Christian icons. It is a treasure house of Christian history that has remained safe for 1400 years under Muslim protection.

 

The Promise to St. Catherine:

 

"This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

 

No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

 

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

 

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."

[Garnaqsi]

^ But the existence of religious freedom or lack thereof is an issue of culture. Whether the culture of a particular society admits the existence of religious freedom is one of the merits of that culture. Your attempt at classifying this as 'religion' is very strange to me.

Aaliyyah;846930 wrote:

With that being said, you seem to be holding the western culture on a pedestal. When in fact the west is a crumbling society ( deteriorating family values, homosexuality, social injustice, masked poverty, increasing national debts, corruption, the ineptitude of politicians, increasing abortion rates, decreased moral values – aggressive foreign policy, media portraying negative images and opinion of other countries, foreign aid that solidifies the stagnation of second/third world countries.)

It's ironic to speak of social injustice while portraying the existence of homosexuality in society as a negative aspect; or, for that matter, viewing increasing abortion rates as an indication of a crumbling society when it in fact might be pointing towards the opposite. None of the things you have stated -- some of which don't even seem to be relevant -- show how Western culture isn't superior in the sense of being more progressive (as was the argument). It's not by coincidence that almost all progress in science, philosophy, mathematics, and almost all fields of knowledge was made in the West. I remember reading that Harvard alone had more scientific publications in 2005 than the entire Arab world. On that basis it would seem to me, while one might identify with Arab culture for sentimental or of course religious reasons, the value is with the Western one from a purely objective standpoint.

[Wadani]

Garnaqsi;846937 wrote:

^ But the existence of religious freedom or lack thereof is an issue of culture. Whether the culture of a particular society admits the existence of religious freedom is one of the merits of that culture. Your attempt at classifying this as 'religion' is very strange to me.

 

Her assertion that Islam allows for religious freedoms and the building of Churches in Muslim countries does not mean she negates that the issue of religious freedoms is inextricably tied up with culture, which vary widely in terms of their oppenness and tolerance. In fact she states that if a certain Muslim country doesn't allow the bulding of churches it doesnt reflect the teachings of Islam, from which you shouldve easily been able to deduce her affirmation of the role of culture.

 

 

It's ironic to speak of social injustice while portraying the existence of homosexuality in society as a negative aspect; or, for that matter, viewing increasing abortion rates as an indication of a crumbling society when it in fact might be pointing towards the opposite.

 

Well for us Muslims, we don't subscribe to notions of moral relativity and complete laissez faire in the realm of social freedoms, because we have an objective (because it is divine) source from which we derive our moral and ethical precepts. So we believe in social justice within the legal frameworks of Islam, thus there is nothing ironic about wat she said, only that her definition of social justice is different than yours.

None of the things you have stated -- some of which don't even seem to be relevant -- show how Western culture isn't superior in the sense of being more progressive (as was the argument).

 

In fact almost everything she listed demonstrates the fallacy of western cultural superiority, even when judged from a secular humanist standpoint. Can you explain how it doesn't?

 

It's not by coincidence that almost all progress in science, philosophy, mathematics, and almost all fields of knowledge was made in the West. I remember reading that Harvard alone had more scientific publications in 2005 than the entire Arab world.

 

But this has nothing to do with the issue being discussed. The Nazis almost took over all of europe because of their scientific and technological supremacy, yet they were a rascist, murderous regime that cannot even begin to be described as progressive. Also, you must be well aware that all civilazations in this world wax and wane and that at one time not too long ago it was the Islamic world that was basking in the glories of a golden age, while Europe wallowed in the barbarity of the dark ages. It's only after the relatively recent industrial revolution in Europe that the West's hegemony was cemented, and we are already seeing the signs if its gradual demise and the rise of Asia and its partners (BRICS, etc).

On that basis it would seem to me, while one might identify with Arab culture for sentimental or of course religious reasons, the value is with the Western one from a purely objective standpoint.

 

I personally do no indentify with Arab culture, because simply im not an Arab, and I even resent it to a degree because its slowly supplanting aspects of my Somali culture, which I absolutely love. And i even agree with u that many aspects of western culture are superior to that of the arabs, like the issue of blatant racism for example. But nonetheless I disagree with u that the Western world is more culturally superior to that of the Eastern world, even including many non Muslim nation. I for one will be taking care of my parents in old age and will expect my kids to do the same for me, and I have my Somali/Islamic culture to thank for that. I would love to see where you end up in your 70's garnaqsi...lol.

.

[The-freeman]

Garnaqsi has offered a reply which is better than I would have stated so I won't repeat it too much. The way I see it is this: culture should evolve and borrow from other cultures attributes which are progressive. Though Western culture has its ugly aspects we should integrate the positives, which, in my opinion are many. The Arab culture, though progressive in past centuries, has now stagnated and as such we should not be emulating it.

 

And to bring the discussion back to the original posting-two humans who appear to like each other and who express that like by sharing a kiss should not be something of concern unless one is fuelled by absolute dogma.