Channel 4 British Somalis are sending their children back to Africa (dhaqan celis)

[ToasterThief]

Chimera;840221 wrote:

The only point I will agree with is the alienation these kids suffer, this is because a strong contemporary Somali culture is not in place. We need a strong Somali bubble that captures the generation between the age 15-20, whether its through sporting tournaments, popular culture(music, films, novels, comics etc), home-work clubs, charter schools, etc. After that their minds will have matured while not having a history of bad mistakes.

I agree, but 15-20 is way too late. It has to be more like 10-15. Most Somali kids fail because they go to failing inner city schools in economically deprived boroughs. Once they fail their GCSE's they either give up or keep repeating subjects at college year after year.

 

Parents should take your children to afterschool or weekend tutoring (you have Kumon, Best Tutors etc.) Once you have strong foundations in Math, English and Science, its hard to go wrong.

[Nin-Yaaban]

What else do you expect from these generation of spoiled kids... it's damn shame.

[Aaliyyah]

Chimera, it is true that there are children out there who lost their fathers either to the war or a death for whatever reason. And yet turned out responsible productive adults. But, walaal that is not the rule that is the exception. The issues that face the somali community on top of the civil war is the lack of father figures at home. That is the sad truth.

It is amazing if one has uncles, male cousins and good role male models in their family. But, a father is irreplaceable especially in the qurbaha, perhaps back home your uncles and male relatives are the same as your father. A father has a certain power/position in his family and an obligation over his kids that relatives don't have. There is no way around this, and no way to underestimate the need for a good father who spends quality time with his kids. The concept of oh these kids are just rebels does not cut it. A baby is innocent and it is how you raise him/her that plays such an important role on how he/she ends up. Of course the environment can have its impact on the child. But, if the parents take that extra mile to prepare that child to be a productive/responsible human being waxaan halkan ku fadhiyaa in ay ku khasareeen. Ilmo kasta oo waqti la galiyo oo lugu tacbo ilaahayna waalidka masuuliyadiisa kasoo baxay wuu cawinaya oo ilmaha luguma khasaarayo.

 

salaam

[GaraadMon]

Nin-Yaaban;840277 wrote:

What else do you expect from these generation of spoiled kids... it's damn shame.

No need to generalize here, there are plenty of productive Somalis from my generation. At least they didn't rape and butcher their fellow citizens and doom their country to 20+ years of suffering.

[Nin-Yaaban]

Blackflash;840379 wrote:

No need to generalize here, there are plenty of productive Somalis from my generation. At least they didn't rape and butcher their fellow citizens and doom their country to 20+ years of suffering.

Might be true, but remember those are the exception and not the rule. The vast majority of these kids nowadays are spoiled and lack any kinda discipline. No wonder they are being sent back home. Just look how many of 'em end up in trouble with the law. Just wait until this generation grows up, it will get alot worse.

[GaraadMon]

Nin-Yaaban;840397 wrote:

Might be true, but remember those are the exception and not the rule. The vast majority of these kids nowadays are spoiled and lack any kinda discipline. No wonder they are being sent back home. Just look how many of 'em end up in trouble with the law. Just wait until this generation grows up, it will get alot worse.

I agree with you, but what do you think should be done by parents? I'll give one pointer out to Somali parents out there today, I've noticed that the vast majority of successful young Somalis were raised in areas with few if any Somalis. Throwing your children in to an ethnic enclave will not give them the tools to be become a contributor to society.

[Chimera]

Aaliyyah;840303 wrote:

Chimera, it is true that there are children out there who lost their fathers either to the war or a death for whatever reason. And yet turned out responsible productive adults. But, walaal that is not the rule that is the exception. The issues that face the somali community on top of the civil war is the lack of father figures at home. That is the sad truth.

It is amazing if one has uncles, male cousins and good role male models in their family. But, a father is irreplaceable especially in the qurbaha, perhaps back home your uncles and male relatives are the same as your father. A father has a certain power/position in his family and an obligation over his kids that relatives don't have. There is no way around this, and no way to underestimate the need for a good father who spends quality time with his kids. The concept of oh these kids are just rebels does not cut it. A baby is innocent and it is how you raise him/her that plays such an important role on how he/she ends up. Of course the environment can have its impact on the child. But, if the parents take that extra mile to prepare that child to be a productive/responsible human being waxaan halkan ku fadhiyaa in ay ku khasareeen. Ilmo kasta oo waqti la galiyo oo lugu tacbo ilaahayna waalidka masuuliyadiisa kasoo baxay wuu cawinaya oo ilmaha luguma khasaarayo.

 

salaam

I think it's a convenient excuse, always blaming the father. It's not like he can enter their minds and put them on a different trajectory from what is considered "cool". On a average day "all teenagers" see their parents roughly two to three hours a day, while they see their friends three to four times as many hours. Who will have the biggest influence? Their friends of course.

 

My fatherless friends chose their own friends well, and as a result are successful productive individuals. The kids in the video - whose fathers are still alive - didn't choose the right friends, and involved themselves with a degenerate sub-culture, and look what happened. The latter are the exception rather than the rule because the vast majority of Somali teens are law-abiding citizens contributing to society, and the Ch4 claim about Somali educational/employment records is based on a decade old study when the community was new and fresh, since then serious gains have been made.

[Nin-Yaaban]

Blackflash;840401 wrote:

I agree with you, but what do you think should be done by parents? I'll give one pointer out to Somali parents out there today, I've noticed that the vast majority of successful young Somalis were raised in areas with few if any Somalis. Throwing your children in to an ethnic enclave will not give them the tools to be become a contributor to society.

It's not the parents fault that these kids turned out to be losers. For all we know the PARENTS could have done everything for them and more, and these kids would've still turned out to be losers.

[Chimera]

Which is why you can have in a family a disfunctional son or daughter yet several other siblings that succeed in life, and they all had the same parental upbringing, or lack thereof.

 

Enough with the excuses, millions of kids in Somalia with a billion times more disadvantages are turning into bright young men and women, yet we are trying to understand why kids in first world countries can't stop dealing, or dancing in clubs because their father didn't hug them enough?

 

Pfff......

[Aaliyyah]

Chimera if the father instils in his child our cultural/religious values. Then that would affect the type of friends that child picks. The reason any child would hang out with the wrong crowd is when they don’t have a good father model to emulate. One that keeps tab on his child’s life. One poster in Sol I don’t remember his nickname on top of my head but I remember him writing on this thread that he had a curfew till he was 16 or so. And how he sees nowadays youngsters chilling out so late in the night with no supervision. So this is a profound example of how parents who don’t supervise their kids can end up taking the wrong path in life. who will take the blame then? The child? Or the parent who simply doesnt care what his child does at such a young age

You are also trying so hard to take the blame from the fathers. Previously you said it doesn’t matter whether fathers spend quality time with their kids and that those kids at the end will rebel .Yet, you are telling me how those kids spend more time with their friends and how because of that they will act like their friends. Huuno waxaad fahantaa that quality time that I was speaking about was to try to tackle that lengthy time that child is spending with their friends whether it is at school or after school etc That quality time is suppose to compensate all that time that child is spending elsewhere. That quality time that father is giving to his child is make sure that he directs his child the right way, so he can make the right friends in life. Ones that will help him make better choices in life. I am also talking about when that child is young (ie elementary school, middle school). Definitely, a father regardless of how much quality time he suddenly decides to give his high school kid he might not be able to exert the same influence that he could have had if he took these steps when that child was much younger. You can’t change a grown person, although it is never good to lose hope.

 

As for the youth in the video. I don’t know them or their parents right. So I can’t be like oh their parents were there and they still failed? I can’t really say. However, we have to know it is not just about having your father alive. Abaha haduu noolyahay but he is not going out of his way to discipline you, to teach you about your dhaqan , deen, akhlaaq. Then, you might as well be “fatherless” waa isla meeshi. Fatherhood is not about just bringing food to the table - although a father is the provider of his family waana waajib saaran. But, it does not end there. He has to know his child inside out. He should not just come from work and be like “hey kid how was school” and just leave it at that. The kid will probably say “fine” and many fathers probably leave at that. But, that kid was at school for 8 hours “fine” does not cut it. So, a father has to be more engaging than that and know whats going on in their child’s life. Ilmaha wuxu sideeda saac qabanayey waa in aad ogtahay. Waa in aa ogtahay after school caruurtu la ciyaaro nocey tahay? Waa in aad ka war haysaa.

 

Last but not least, I am not painting all Somali youth with the same brush. After all you and I are in our mid 20s and we grew up abroad. But, many of our youngesters going astray is an issue that needs to be addressed. That is we need to really find why is this happening in our community? If we can’t save the ones who already messed their lives how can we make the next generation avoid the same mistakes?.. It is really heart breaking to see all these youth losing their lives over drugs and what not. You have to also know majority of those are boys anything from 17 to mid 20s. Girls are for the most part very productive and very responsible alhamdulilah. So, I don’t agree with your comment about them being an exception and not the rule? Because these are not just one , two or handful…we are talking about huge numbers whether they are in America, Europe, or Canada. It wasn’t that long ago when MMA in that other thread asked me if I ever seen those jails around dixon area or something and how one will be astonished when they see how many somalis are in there. I personally haven’t seen but I have heard numerous stories about women complaining about their children so I get the picture and it is not something to underestimate. If somalis don’t do something about it will only get worse with every generation. And believe me it starts with parenthood...before anyone helps their community they need to start from their kids. So parents (in particular fathers) need to realize that raising a family is not a piece of a cake like it was in Somalia. It is a huge responsibility in qurbaha.

I will leave you with that I think I wrote a bit too much. That was not my intention lol.

 

salaam

[Chimera]

What happened Aaliyah, are you alright, is everything okay sister? That's the biggest post I have ever seen you write in the more than 6 years we've been here. It's too late now here in London to tackle that beast of a reply above me, and just looking at it makes me sleepy, insha'allah tomorrow I will reply in kind lol

 

Good post.

[Aaliyyah]

Loool Chimera. Get some sleep.

[Wadani]

I dont think chimera is denying that an engaged father can have a profound impact on his children, nor do i think the other poster is saying that a good father is the end all and be all of raising well adjusted and upright kids.

 

I think u can both agree that having a responsible father at home to emulate greatly increases the probability of a child succeeding in life, but it unfortunately doesnt gaurantee such an outcome. Likewise the lack of a father undoubtedly presents a formidable disadvantage to kids that often times leads to a life of crime and dysfunction, but alhamdulillah there are exceptions to this. I for example grew up with out my dad, but i was blessed with a wonderful mother and two very involved aunts, and i think i turned out alright.

[Abu-Salman]

I think some points need to be stressed:

 

The principal influence on children are other childrens as experts now recognize: they spend, after all, most of their time with their friends.

 

A functional family that is not deprived, relatively speaking, makes a huge difference: litterate or engaged parents whose children will not be tortured by spending years next to children who are spoiled with gadgets, brands etc, while living in a highly materialistic society.

 

Therefore, life in a western country with distant relatives or overburdened ones is already a recipe for disaster on many counts for the majority.

The odds are vastly improved if you homeschool (popular in the USA) or find decent schools that promote values, create some better environment (calmer neighborhood or religious community), while parenting closely (much more than back in Africa).

Of course having financial stability and some education makes also things much easier, again even more so in the West (alienation and bullying are two others big issues too).

 

The parents, or wider family in our context, are fully responsible since they chose the neighborhood, school, amount of quality time vs TV, whether to act as models (behave as you want them to behave: discipline, no foul langage or tantrums, reading at home and prioritising learning above anything), the kind of friends their children will come accross from the very start, outdoor activities and travel or family visits (no need to build homes, invest in them) etc.

 

What I always found astonishing is that children from educated parents, stable families from the middle or upper class that value education succeed largely in getting their children disciplined and educated, often in top schools or courses abroad, back in Africa, despite often coming accross as deprived by Western standards, with minimal comfort, with dysfunctional schools, absent or unmotivated teachers, no libraries or internet, few books etc (not to mention the Asian parenting).

 

 

 

PS: there are no 100% guarantee in life but that is besides the point, if around 80% is assured, the rest can be addressed (the few children still astray would still be better off anyway and have solid foundations that will help them later to go back to, guide them etc).

Some children are born with less mature self-control or ability but that is not an issue in itself and has even its uses (humans will never be similar); prevention through lifestyle and location does not triumph over illness but reduce it to a very large extent, while making the rest more manageable (even declared cancers).

[Aaliyyah]

I was emphasizing the importance of having a good father figure at home. And, I sort of believe that it starts from there, and everything else will fall in its place after that. But, in no way was I discounting all the other factors that can also play an important role in that child's upbringing. You all made amazing points no doubt and fatherhood alone will not guarantee an amazing child. Like Abu Salmaan pointed out good schools, good neighborhood, finance, knowing the importance of education etc etc can play a critical role in how that child's ends up.

 

And this one point Abu salmaan made "dont build homes invest in them" I agree with him. I believe he was referring to somalis going back home to build homes and spending anything from 20k 40k or so to buy homes. Horta we have to know they are buying those lands as investment for their child. Laakin waxa wanagsan invest in your child right now, bari haduu ka halaabo 40k lands waxba ma taraso. So that is that. It is also true that we live in materialistic world and you need to provide for your child the little things that he wants so he doesnt feel out of place when he is at school. Without obviously spoiling him, everything is good in moderation. Inshallah then you can raise a productive young person. No guarantees but you did your best then.

 

p.s Wadani alhamdulilah there are amazing young people who grew up without fathers and yet turned out great. Ilaahay baa mahad leh. But, those are exceptions. Usually if a child doesn't have a father that has a negative impact on them. Not to say those mothers were not doing their best, but usually mothers are "soft" they can't discipline a child. Usually. I am not saying that is always the case. Or maybe it is not just about them not disciplining the child but the fact that they are playing both parents' role. You can't be a father and a mother at the same time. That is hard.