Coping with Arguments Discord among Muslims on the Net

[Salafi_Online]

Brother Nur,

 

Where in any of here statement does she tie knowledge to a specific scholars, she said†" we should connect to the people of knowledge to the ulama in the land of the muslim, we do not have any ulama in this country ."

 

This being the case, the Ullama are found in many parts of the muslim world, from Pakistan, Somalia, Xijaz, Egypt, Syria…etc I do not know of any CAlim who is deeply rooted in the islamic sciences and resides in the land of the non-muslims. Certainly, there are students of ilm, students of major Shuyukh scattered around the world, but it has no reached us that they contain the necessary credentials to earn the title “Alim†, similar to a bachelors degree /masters would not earn someone the title of “Doctorâ€

 

Ikhtilaaf is a Sunnah ( nature) in mankind, it will contiune to exisit forever, but what is wrong is Tafarruq ( partying ways) or Xizbiyyah, which means loyalty to a specific Sheikh or Alim and congregating around one platform creating ( Us versus Them) in the Muslim ummah.

Whilst this is true, xizbiyaah it is generically frowned up, and thriving to accept the truth wherever its found insofar it contains the right element of substantiation is what conforms with Islam, loyalty to a specific manhaj is not only encouraged, but it is the ONLY acceptable means to a successful life here and on the day of interrogation! To the best of my knowledge, and I stand corrected, there are no manifesting proof in kitab wa sunnah and from the a’imaa of the salaf, where they advocated multiple maanaajih(multiple understandings of the kitab & sunnah.) the type of Xizbiyah I speak off is wala’a(love) to the manhaj of the alhul Sunnah waljamaca and baaraa(disloyalty) to the conflicting methodologies. In this regard, the theme of “ us verse them†is Inevitable.

 

 

That is true sister, but in our time and age, it is more convient to seek it in the internet, how many people do you know who can get admission to Madinah University or sit at the Halaqa of the Kibaar al Ulema at Deira Masjid in Riyad? For that reason, its equally wajib on Ulema to disseminate knowledge and use all available means to reach those who are seeking knowledge, after all, the Zakat of the knowledge is to share with as many people as possible

While the people in general have swayed from the pursue of Islamic knoweldge in favour of knowledge restricted to this world(secular education), the Scholars have taking great pains in disseminating knowledge to the Ummah, which I’m sure your quite well aware off; their tapes, books, cd’s, and in various languages are available through many channels, whether its the bookstore, internet, chat programs or live tele-link lectures! in spite of this, the scholars can only do so much; this is why people like yourself are the companions of the Scholars, transporting their NUR where it could not reach. In the few months that I have been here, you have provided the audience of Somaliaonline with knowledge they could not normally access, and through your writing we have come familiar with certain scholars and their works. And truly Allah is most just, he leave not a stone un-turned but that darkness diminishes. There are others like yourself who devote their time and efforts without seeking rewards, connecting and engineering a link between the people and the scholars, whether this meanings translating their books/tapes, opening bookstores or offering internet sites. the 3 grand scholars of our times each have their own websites! And all venues do not take the form of debates. You GOT message? your duty is simply to deliver it, if need be explain it!

 

Your statement reminds me of a saying:

 

the salaf like imam malik said to the sons of harun ar rashid when harun called him to his house that "it use to be the student who came to the teachers, but now the teacher comes to the student?"

 

Debates may contain knowledge, provided that the debaters are knowledgeable, but the trouble is that unadulterated knowledge is lost in the the minds of(at times repetitive) argument. When a debate is presented in public with lofty rhetoric, in a language enriched by a variety of artistic devices(ie verse,hadith, scholastic opinions), the audience are entrapped and confused by the mode of presentation. Debates do not filter deception, misinterpretation of text, false creed, rather it supplies a stage to flourish! Debating, arguing and disputing are innovations which throw doubts into the heart, even if the person reaches the truth and the Sunnah

as you mentioned, Allah said" when you differ on matter return it to allah and his messenger"

 

 

At-Tirmidhee reports a hasan hadeeth from Abu Umaamah, who said: "Allaah's Messenger (saws) said, " A people never went astray after being upon guidance except through disputation ." Then Allaah's Messenger (saws) recited this Ayah :

" This they set forth to you, only by way of argument. Nay, but they are a contentious people ." (Soorah az-Zukhruf 43:58)

[Viking]

Rahima,

Important issue inded! Many young Muslims are faced with this dilemma day in day out.

 

 

Nur,

I'm with you 100% on this!

 

 

Originally posted by Salafi da'wa:

Brother Nur,

Where in any of here statement does she tie knowledge to a specific scholars, she said†"

we should connect to the people of knowledge to the ulama in the land of the muslim, we do not have any ulama in this country ."

Salafi,

I think he was diplomatically referring (could be mistaken here) to you when he said; "There are others who have a specific narrow agenda of defining all of Islamic knowlege to belong to a specific set of Ulema, thus creating resentment and strengthening the division of Xizbiyah among the Muslims."

 

Could the 'specific set of Ulama' be the Salafi scholars?

[Salafi_Online]

Viking,

Nur's original statement:

Because you are clearly tying knowledge to a set of Ulema alone, which in itself may cause suspicion of your motives at best

.

hence my reply:

 

We live in a time of vast confusion, fitnah and newly firqa forge into the ummah as we speak. The creed of Muhammad(salalahu alayhi wa salam) was one. The creed and understanding of the Salaf is the purest form of islam, other then it, is innovation mixed with truth, innovation is misguidance, and all innovation is in the fire!

 

The scholars who adhere to the kitab and sunnah upon the understanding of the salaf, deserve loyalty, just as the companions deserve loyalty and their opponents dont(i.e Khawarij) And anyone who opposes the understanding of the salaf, ie people of innovations deserve no attention!

 

As for the “ resentment and strengthening hizbiyah †spiel, some people just refuse to accept that islam is complete and only requires submission, & we refuse to remain silent in warn the people about their destructive path.

 

edit:

yesterday i was talking to a gentlement, he said something quite astonishing, " there are no real scholars, scholars are only those whom Allah declared scholars" at the same token he called me a mushrik, because i refer to the hadith as a source of guidance! while to him hadith are noting but conjectures!

 

wa hasbunallah wa ni3mal wakeel

[Viking]

There are others who have a specific narrow agenda of defining all of Islamic knowlege to belong to a specific set of Ulema, thus creating resentment and strengthening the division of Xizbiyah among the Muslims.

Originally posted by Salafi da'wa:

Viking, The creed and understanding of the Salaf is the purest form of islam, other then it, is innovation mixed with truth, innovation is misguidance, and all innovation is in the fire!

Salafi,

So anyone who disagrees with the intepretations of a Salafi scholar is ahlul bid'a? Where have I heard this before...

 

...even ibn Taymiyyah himself was charged with kufr, Allah SWT ha noo sahlo.

[Nur]

Salafi Dawa

 

MaaShaAllahu Tabaarakallahu. Keep up the good work bro, your response to my post for my Ukhti al Muslima was well thought of, and presented, it was also pricelessly educational, the kind of arguments that many Nomads should read and learn a lot from, it was balanced in its approach, supported by reliable sources, it layed the foundation for a scholarly Xiwaar that has one goal, zero'ing on what is right. Please keep the pace, your contributions can shed a light on issues of the hour facing Muslims.

 

Your article and that response from Brother Viking and your subsequent response to his post make up a differening points of view, yours is focused on securing Safety of following proven ways of the Salaf al Salix, his is focused on a search to add more glories to theirs so that we do not only sleep on the Salaf's great contributions. But everything comes with a price tag! yours comes short of empowering the most precious thing Allah SWT gave us, our Intellectual capacity, ingrained in the Quraan ( So they may reflect, Think in groups of two or three to ponder if Muhammad is mad? Do they have Qulub ( Minds)with which they fail to see (truth)etc. .) while the price of bro. Viking's search and freedom to think could lead to Bidcah if one is not careful.

 

In the world of business which I am involved in, investors seek to invest their wealth to gain profit, however, its well known fact that as the potential of risk increases, many people opt out and only few dare to invest, those few, if they win against the odds , usually reap high profits because of teh absence of others sharing with them the market. Profit, as I came to know is the Grand Prize one is paid for enduring high risk for her money. So as risk ( likelyhood of a loss) goes down, more investors join the deal, which lowers the Prize.

 

If we apply the above analogy to the approaches of Islamic scholars and their methods of the Salaf al Salix and the Khalaf, which is most of Muslims ( only the first three generations are considered Salaf ), we can deduce that the Salaf's approach to be a safe investment of our short live terms on earth, since it limited the Islamic thought of interpretations to those most trusted sources at the Salf's era ONLY. The safety feature in the Salafi method comes with an opportunity cost ( In economics Opportunity cost is the cost incurred by forgoing another option in ivestment ).

 

That cost could be very dear if we do not think creatively ( which is a Big NO in Salaf's terms ), because as the human experience on planet earth evolves, we come across new boundaries of provocative problems and thoughts that were not faced by the Salaf at their time, new mind boggling realities are emerging that can not be treated with Fiqh solutions drawn for problems that exisited at the Salf's era, Aqeedah issues faced by the Salaf are no longer the same faced by today's muslims dealing with secular realities engulfing their freedom to practise their faith to its fullest( The Towheed of Asmaa wal Sifaat, versus the application of Sharia and Allah's ( SAMADIA) Sovreignty ), Secular and scientific knowledge has so much become specialized and well structured, while the corresponding fiqh of Islamic institutions from Zeituna, Azhar and Madina to Lucknow remained stagnant for ages without major breakthroughs. The Salaf's method which champions Safety as its core value, is thus seen as missing momentum of claiming leadership in light of the swift developments in the spheres of politics, business, sccientific enquiry , social change, government, law and justice, to the point that opponennets of the modern Salafi method accuse this , movement of turning a deaf ear or even collaborating with the terrible demise befallen the ummah and its deplorable resultant socio-econo- Judicial situation of Muslims worldwide.

 

Hence, a new breed of Islamicc thinkers have emerged of late, mostly the product of many streams of the Islamic revival movements in the Islamic homelands. Some of these scholars, while trying to solve such plight the Muslims face have succumbed to pressures to the point of compromising on rock solid Aqeedah principles after they have forgetten to account for fundmental basics of our faith, worse yet, some scholars have adopted outright ( Bidcah ) innovations as a solution to the Muslim plight which conflicts with the fiber of our faith.

 

All the while a small minority of this latent Muslim neo-thinkers are juggling between the two methods to reap the benefits of both, how to secure a safe aqeedah, and a practical solution for Muslims living their time and solving their present day problems in light of their faith, all under intense pressure of non Islamic friendly political entities that are forming barriers in their way and at times prosecuting them unfairly.

 

As such, the terrain of Islamic activism is full of dangers lurking beneath, agianst a backdrop of lofty opportunities to make Islam the new wave of faith in the world. In such a dilemma, its only with wisdom and the Tawfeeq of Allah that we can meet our duty to Allah SWT while we best advance Allah's cause, and yet stay away of self inflicted wounds due to our own internal conflicts that have served as the main barrier of the advancement of Islamic cause.

 

 

Nur

[Buubto]

Asalaamu Aleikum Waraxmatulaah wabarakaatu.

 

I too faced the same dilemma as you all describing. I always thought Muslims fallowed same madhab until I become so interested learning the deen. Yes my intentions turned to the net where I found conflicting issues between the Muslims. As a result I was confused and lost in the process. So honestly internet discussions and knowledge seeking isn’t the best option. Most people don’t have knowledge of what they talking about, rather fallowing the teachings of their fallow citizen man. Because of that most young people get caught in it which results confusion & obscuration.

 

I turned to TV program where I constantly fallowed Mr Amr khalid may Allah reward him, who made me gain my love and passion for the deen. I personally don’t see the need of fallowing a particular madhab rather sticking to the qur’aan and the teachings of our prophet Mohamed C.S.W.

 

May Allah all guide us to the right path (Amin).

[sahal]

May I contribute this by asking the same question that I asked in other thread which is if we have to follow IMAM (or more than one IMAM) who should we follow? SALAF IMAMS like SHAFICI, AHAMAD, ABU-HANIFA, and MALIK or KHALAF scholars?

[Nur]

Sahal bro.

 

Taqlid, or the following of a Muslim lay person of an Imam in Islam, is a controversial issue, there are more than one answer to your question each with a convincing track. My take on this is that one must first strive to know the basics well, and the concept of Tawheed and Shirk. Any detail after that is permissible to choose one of the Imams as your guide.

 

Sheikh Sancaani is of the opinion that Taqlid is not permissible. Muslims he maintains are required to follow the religion with the criteria of knowing the sources of the faith and their meaning.

 

For practical purposes though, following of any of the four imams is good for a lay prerson who may not have time and resources to seek the sources of the rulings on every fiqh issue.

 

Wallahu Aclam

 

Nur

[sahal]

Bro. Nur Jazakulah Khayr

 

My intention was that some people criticise following for four IMAMS while they themselves follow KHALAF Imams blindly and sometimes they follow theses Sheikhs without any evidence from the KITAAB & SUNNAH as i several times asked many here to give any evidence that someone can call him/herself SALAFI and the only evidence they got was Sheikh Albani said so and so, the strange is that these people are those who are criticising FOUR IMAMS and saying ALLAH didn't order us to follow these Imams enz.

 

So, Bro. Nur how can we tell these ppl to think twice and don't criticise those noble IMAMS while you're following KHALAF scholars and remenber some of them even don't know that these IMAMS were SALAF since they all lived firt 3 century of this UMMAH.

 

They claim that they're follwers of SALAF and criticise lay person who follow one of the SALAF while they, on the other hand, want everybody to follow KHALAF scholars sometimes without any evidence.

[Umm al_khair]

Sad you have not grasped the positive answer that salafi dawa has given you on me behalf.

 

I will say Nur mashallah with the intellects may have especially in the world of business, but yet you are lacking the correct knowledge of our ulmas otherwise you would not have said any of this fabrication, I don’t know what you read or heard or however you came about to say such a lie.

 

 

Our scholors adhere to a manhaj in aqeedah (creed), a manhaj in da'wah (calling to Allaah), a manhaj in enjoining good and forbidding evil, a manhaj in how to judge between people. This manhaj, in all situations, was based upon the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of our Messenger. I repeat manhaj in all situations including politics, business, scientific enquiry, social change, government, law and justice.

 

through your writing we have come familiar with certain scholars and their works

 

If you believe in all the negative stuff you said about the scholars then why do you use their work through your writings?

[Nur]

Ukhtii Al Muslimah

 

you write:

 

I will say Nur mashallah with the intellects may have especially in the world of business, but yet you are lacking the correct knowledge of our ulmas otherwise you would not have said any of this fabrication, I don’t know what you read or heard or however you came about to say such a lie.

 

 

Dear Sister

 

Your language does not befit that of the tolerance of the Salaf al Salix you claim to follow, the word fabrication and the word LIE are rather too strong statements if you do not have the following:

 

1. Clear Evidence of well known TRUTH on the subject that all Muslims agree on.

 

2. Clear evidence that I have maliciously ignored the TRUTH beknown to me and chose to tell a LIE instead with intention to mislead. That is the sufficient and necessary judicial proof for accusing a person of a LIE, if you fail to produce such an evidence, the Sharia classifies my words as a different point of view on the subject, and your words are thus deemed to be a blatant Slander against a fellow Muslim. A Muslima is not allowed to slander fellow Muslim, this is for your benefit my dear sister.

 

 

You write:

 

" Our scholors adhere to a manhaj in aqeedah (creed), a manhaj in da'wah (calling to Allaah), a manhaj in enjoining good and forbidding evil, a manhaj in how to judge between people. This manhaj, in all situations, was based upon the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of our Messenger. I repeat manhaj in all situations including politics, business, scientific enquiry, social change, government, law and justice.

 

 

Dear Sister:

 

That is wonderful, my search for a clear non ambiguous Method in all spheres stops as soon as you publish the specific Manahaj of your scholars( A Manhaj that can only mean one thing with no room for difference among the ulema ) . Your efforts will win you a great reward from Allah SWT if you take the trouble to help viewers with the presentation of such ultimate Clear Manhaj for solving all of Muslims present problems. Please share with us the sources, so that I can share with Nomads that there is such a clear-cut Manhaj available for Muslims.

 

 

You write:

 

Through your writing we have come familiar with certain scholars and their works If you believe in all the negative stuff you said about the scholars then why do you use their work through your writings?

 

Dear Sister:

 

As for my presentations of some of Muslim scholars' works to substantiate as daleel, its because I have the highest respect for them, I have learned a great deal of knowledge from some of their works, and I do not consider their contributions to belong to any specific group, so I freely use and quote if need be, simply because no human has monopoly on being right all the time. As for your claim that I have injured their reputation, please be kind enough to point out a single negative statement I've said about the person of any of the Scholars, I will thank you for it if you present such proof, and further, I will gladly remove the statement and pray Allah SWT gives you reward for it and forgives me for my mistake.

 

Sister, I find your response very combative, you come across as vengeful for something I fail to understand, the way you have chosen your words show contempt and disregard for the akhlaaq of discussion, please choose the right words to deliver what you mean without throwing unfounded accusations right and left, its only an advice if you intend to do this for the sake of Allah SWT.

 

Lastly, your fervor for the defense of the scholars is unwarranted, the scholars are humans, they can make mistakes just like the rest of us, their mistakes if not checked by the sources of Quraan and Sunnah can be devastating since some people follow them blindly, Only the Shia believe that their Imams are infallible, we on the other hand follow the Quraan as the infallible word of Allah SWT, we also learn the interpretation of the Quraan from the Saxiix ahaadith of our Messenger Muhammad SAWS, given those two, we do not follow anyone blindly, if the daleel presented by a scholar is right we follow that, if not we are at freedom to seek the right interpretation from any source we find convincing, there is no specific club of scholars who are above scrutiny and are always right on all subjects, and there is no single gate in paradise reserved for them and their fololwers, all Muslims will stand in front of Allah SWT one by one, not in groups, and those who have followed the Prophet SAWS Sunnnah and Allah with sincerity will be given the Shafaacah by Muahammad SAWS, and not by any scholar, Allahumma Salli Cakaa Sayyidinaa Muxammad, wa calaa aalihi wa saxbihi wa sallim.

 

 

Note: Although you and brother Salafi Dawa are defending the Dacwa Salafiya which I also consider myself a defender albeit with difference in approach, I would advice you to follow his method, its far more convincing, more substantiative and intellectually stimulating, I have learned from his last post, I can't say that about yours.

 

Allahumma ihdinaa wahdi binaa katheeraa.

 

Akhuuka Al Muslim

 

Nur

[Viking]

Viking's search and freedom to think could lead to Bidcah if one is not careful.

Nur,

Allah SWT tells us in the Qur'an that we should not follow practises just because our fathers (and forefathers) did them. We are obliged to learn the Straight Path and adhere to it. This is indeed a difficult task at times with all the differing intepretations that exist today. But without the freedom to think, one cannot find the Truth as I (as an example) was born to a people who believed that FGM is Sunnah, Mawlid was celebrated every year with a lot of valour, Saints were hailed with bun iyo uunsi every now and then etc etc. Even my own grandfather's grave has been an object for Ziyara by some people and alhamdulillah I have been questionning these kind of practises ever since I was a child. Only a free mind can look at these practises and be able to question them (and even distance themselves from them) despite the strong traditions that have enforced them through generations for many a years. Some Salafi brothers/sisters have played a major role in enforcing the Prophet's SAWS traditions in our regions and I applaude them for their efforts.

 

I'm glad to be free from Taqleed/Ittiba' for (on the Day of Reckonning) I am solely responsible for my actions and would therefore be very careful not to depend on a one-sided intepretation of aspects of our Deen. None the less, I have great respect for all the scholars who put all their energy in serving Allah SWT and break down the Deen for the layman. They are the Friends of Allah SWT and I have the utmost respect for them all; and as the Prophet's SAWS tradition teaches us, they get one reward for the mistakes they make and two for everything they get right.

 

It is important for me not to take anything at face value but scrutinise them using the Qur'an and Sunnah as reference and question why certain practises ought to be followed...thereafter make a choice.

[Umm al_khair]

You are the one who is objecting. Saying those upon the quran and Sunnah and the way of the sahabas are missing a movement in politics, so what is your evidence on this.

 

What is your definition of politics back to the quran and Sunnah and according to the way of the salafs?

 

Salafi method accuse this , movement of turning a deaf ear or even collaborating with the terrible demise befallen the ummah and its deplorable resultant socio-econo- Judicial situation of Muslims worldwide.

 

 

Allah subhanalah said

No calamity will befall anyone except what his own hands has brought.

 

When they turn away from allah, allah takes the goodness away from them

 

Allah also says in surah ar rad; 11 he never changes the condition of someone until they change what is within themselves.

 

So the salaf method does not turn a deaf ear in fact they look for the cure for the trouble that has befallen the ummah.

 

If somebody you love was ill what do you do? You take them to doctor and find a cure for them wouldnt you?

 

Well this is exactly what those who are upon the manhaj of the salaf are doing…

The matter of importance is not that they cry because the dunya is filled with tears and it’s filled with screaming and shouting and yelling saying don’t you see what is happening in Palestine and such and such land. There is no benefit with all this shouting and yelling from street to street, Islam is not a religion of noise, it is a religion that brings about tranquility and sanctity.

 

The humiliation to the ummah is caused be leaving the tawheed, by taking interest and mortgage by taking part in sinful transaction and becoming occupied with the dunya. So we have to take them back to tawheed which the prophet SAW has left us with, that is the cure as Allah will not remove this humiliation until you turn back to your deen

 

The ullamas are human they can make mistakes. But we are not worshiping them neither do we attach our self to one ullamas such as those who call themselves shafici or hanafii do, we are obtaining knowledge from them collectively including the four imams, their knowledge on the quran and Sunnah, since they are those who are correctly upon it. If you oppose this then where will advise to acquire knowledge from.

[Umm al_khair]

after they have forgetten to account for fundmental basics of our faith

 

what do you mean by this Nur.

[Nur]

Viking Bro.

 

Y've made a convincing argument for your point, the issue at hand is an age old controversy, the explanation that I feel comfortable with is the following:

 

The faculty of the mind that provides the thinking process is the basis of accountability, ( MANAAT AL TAKLEEF ), and as I have written, Allah SWT advised His servants throughout the revelation to THINK! because when the right logic is followed, we all reach the TRUTH in all issues. It is only when we use warped logic or ommit key facts out of IGNORANCE that we end up with weird conclusions. The ignorance could well be of the unseen ( Al Ghaib )

 

Facts beyound the human minds comprehension, which Allah SWT revealed throughout the revelation,AL GHAIB or the unseen, if not taken to account, one can make a monumental error of judgement, for example the israa and al Miraaj were events beyound the comprehension of our minds. Many of the Hadeeths reported about the Prophet SAWS fall in this category, to question such events is only advisable if we are after the authenticity of such reports, I mean verifying if indeed the Prophet SAWS has said such a hadeeth. If the line of narration classifies such a hadeeth to be saxiix, we then accept it if it is in line with the Quraan, and leave the interpretation to Allah SWT.

 

If the hadeeth contradicts with the Quraan, we then take the Quraan's interpretation unless the Hadeeth has been proven beyound doubt that it nullifies a prior order, ( NAASIKH )

However, if such a hadeeth requires that we carry out certain actions, questioning its validity is a natural outcome and many scholars have differed on it before, however, depending on the supporting background, the Quraan is ususally followed while we adhere to hadeeth at best effort basis.

 

For that reason, the problem facing Muslims today emanates from the lack of knowledge of the Usuul al Shariica or the basis of legislation also known as the science of the moral of the law. The moral of all Islamic law is:

 

1. Empowerment of Justice, no one can use Quraan or Hadeeth to defend injustice

 

2. The Protection of Faith ( Including the right of non believers to practice their faith ),

 

3. The Protection of the intellect and the Mind itself as the basis for accountability, the mentally challenged are not accountable for their actions.

 

4. The Protection of Human life, No one is allowed to use the Quraan or Hadeeth to end human life unless its proven beyound doubt that such a person is endangering the very existence of life.

 

5. The Protection of human dignity

 

6. The protection of Property

 

7. The Protection of the environment that supports life on earth.

 

 

Any logic that violates the above basis for Sharia, is not in line with the intentions of the law, thus it is rejected.

 

 

Nur