Is Killing An Apostate in the Islamic Law?

[Viking]

Nur,

Bro, I appreciate the time you've taken to respond and enlighten us further on this subject but your rebuttal is not sufficient to make people believe (beyond doubt) that the punishment for an apostate is death.

 

 

Syed said:

The Qur’an is completely silent on any worldly punishment for apostasy and the sole Tradition that forms the basis of rulings is open to many interpretations.

 

To which you replied...

 

 

This statment is false, Please read the following verses of the quraan and then read the asbaabul nuzuul ( Purpose of Revelation):

 

 

(وقالت طائÙØ© من أهل الكتاب أمنوا بالذي أنزل على الذين أمنوا وجه النهار واكÙروا آخره لعلهم يرجعون، ولا تؤمنوا إلا لمن تبع دينكم، قل أن الهدى هدى الله أن يؤتى أحد مثل ما أوتيتم أو يحاجوكم عند ربكم، قل أن الÙضل بيد الله يؤتيه من يشاء والله واسع عليم) (سورة آل عمران/ 72-73

 

A group of the people of the book conspired and said "Convert to Islam in the early part of the day, and become apostates at the end of that day, so that (Muslims) becomes apostates (like us), and do not believe (in any Mulsim) unless he is following our faith, say (O Muhammad) guidance is (ONLY) the guidnace of Allah SWT.

 

 

It was reported by ibn Ubbas RAA, that he said that this verse was revealed when Abdullah ibn Saff, Adi ibn Zeid, and Harith ibnu Auf (people of the Book) conspired and said to each other " let us convert to the belief of Mohammad and his companions in the morning and become apostates at sunset to confuse them about their faith so they will do what we do and revert back from their faith. In other narrations, it was reported that they wanted to show believers that the people of the book found errors with Islam after they have asked their Rabbis about the religion of Muhammad and after converting found the religion of Muhammad not to be true just like their Rabbis told them, therefore, they became apostates. Then, Allah revealed this verse on that occasion.

You started by saying that his statement (above in bold) was false but you failed to prove his saying that "The Qur'an is completely silent on any worldly punishment for apostasy and the sole Tradition that forms the basis of rulings is open to many interpretations".

 

The explanation to the verse you quoted refers to apostates who become disbelievers after converting to Islam with sinister agendas. This comes under high treason and I don't think anyone doubts that the people who fall onto this category should be spared because they come under the the ruling of those who are creating unrest in the land. I think the sentence for these people are made quite clear in the Qur'an in Suratul Ma'idah...

 

Ù…Ùنْ أَجْل٠ذَلÙÙƒÙŽ كَتَبْنَا عَلَى بَنÙÙŠ Ø¥ÙسْرَائÙيلَ أَنَّه٠مَن قَتَلَ Ù†ÙŽÙْساً بÙغَيْر٠نَÙْس٠أَوْ Ùَسَاد٠ÙÙÙŠ الأَرْض٠Ùَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمÙيعاً وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا Ùَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمÙيعاً وَلَقَدْ جَاءتْهÙمْ رÙسÙÙ„Ùنَا بÙالبَيّÙنَات٠ثÙمَّ Ø¥Ùنَّ ÙƒÙŽØ«Ùيراً مّÙنْهÙÙ… بَعْدَ Ø°ÙŽÙ„ÙÙƒÙŽ ÙÙÙŠ الأَرْض٠لَمÙسْرÙÙÙونَ

 

"For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had : saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs ( of Allah ' s sovereignty ), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth." (Suratul Ma'idah 5:32)

 

 

The verse above lays the groundwork for the Hadeeth ruling which was meant to close this loophole, the Sharia requires once a danger is identified that Muslims take a course of action to minimize the danger to their faith, thus the sufficient and necessary ruling.

The verse you quoted doesn't mention any punishment at all. It says is that "say (O Muhammad) guidance is (ONLY) the guidnace of Allah SWT" and I fail to see how this verse has laid the "groundwork" for persecuting anyone who disbelieves. The commentary doesn't do that either, it refers to people who were working against Islam by creating confusion among Muslims. Their intentions and punishment (as I see it) is justified because they are "creating unrest in the land".

 

 

 

...The Prophet SAWS ruled for the favor of the Jew, the Muslim was not satisfied, he went to Abu Bakar, likewise, Abu Bakar ruled for the Jew, then the Muslim went to Omar for judgement, Omar asked him if he was dissatisfied with the judgemnet of the Prophet, when the Muslim plaintiff confirmed, Omar killed the Muslim for apostacy, here, for rejecting a ruling by the Prophet SAWS.

 

It is this incidence and many others that show the bases of the Ulema's and the companions like Omar's fatwa that an apostate is not a crime alone, it is a treason against the ummah, therefore, he is deemed at war against Islam in essence thus the ruling.

If we follow your logic (or the hadeeth you refer to about Umar (RA) killing someone for not listenning to the Prophet SAWS) then some of the Sahabas (incl. Umar [RA]) can be accused of apostasy because they refused to listen to what the Prophet SAWS said. This can be found in Sahih Bukhari...

 

Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

 

When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."

 

 

It is of special interest to know that no one at the time of the Prophet SAWS doubted the punsihment of an Apostate, when the companions learned of some of the hypocrites who were consealing their kufr, they suggested to the prophet to allow them to kill them, but the prophet SAWS rejected on the grounds that it will seem as though Muhammad was kiulling his own companions, which was an issue that would have ill served the advance of islam and its acceptability.

If the Prophet SAWS never killed apostatese because it would(as you put it) "have ill served the advance of islam and its acceptability", then why should his Ummah do it?

 

 

Syed said: The Glorious Qur'an says, "Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Surely the Right Path is clearly distinct from the crooked path." Al Baqarah, 2:256 .

 

This verse does not support to his argument, but I wonder why he mentioned it after the universal declaration of human rights, does he believe that Quraan is infrior to this declaration? anyway, I have already classified above that non Muslims have their rights to live peacefully with muslims in their lands, and that their persons, property and dignity is safeguarded by Allah' sacred law, anyone who violates their rights is doomed in hell.

Bro Nur, You have also failed to explain what the above verse is distincly referring to. We all know that non-Muslims have the right to live alongside Muslims as they did in Yathrib and other places but why should there be compulsion in religion when this verse clearly says otherwise? Does it refer ONLY to non-Muslims as you make it out to be? If so, how do we know this?

 

 

Brother Syed continues:

Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path." Surah An-Nisa', 4:137.

 

 

Finally, he quotes a verse that shows that apostasy is no SIN, but kufr. and that its ruling is hell in the next life, and in ithis life, the believres are given the mandate to determine how to set controls for this phenomena so that Islam does not become a permeable religion with destructive elemnents breaking its internal structure as a viable faith.

If the believers are given the mandate as you said above, then it means that they have an option. Which means that the death penalty is not an obligation but something that has come about on Qiyas and Ijtimaa from the scholars. I know you wrote this in haste, but you cannot say it has clear support from the Hadith and then say that "the believers are given the mandate to determine how to set controls for this phenomena so that Islam does not become a permeable religion. This is somewhat contradictory for the readers like I who are trying to make sense of it all.

 

 

Apostacy does not have always to be declared, an apostate who hides his apostacy is known as hypocrite, thus, one can become a believer without being noticed, and likewise, he can become kafir privately, so in that case, no earthly punishment for him, just a devine punishment in hell as the verse says.

What you are saying here Bro Nur (correct me if I'm mistaken) is that anyone who declares his disbelief in public is to be killed but the person who keeps it private (to himself/herself) is not to be put to death? If there's no earthy punishment for the person who doesn't openly declare his apostasy (as you put it) isn't the message that it is OK (according to the Shari'a) if you disbelieve, but don't do it publicly otherwise you face excecution?

 

 

Islam, means submission to Allah swt, it is a binding covenant between man and his Maker, it entails total submission, and allegiance, and following of its teachings, Apostacy constitues breach of the covenenat, and contempt of the veru Sharia law that Syed is arguing for the protection of the Apostate. What needs to be asked is, how can any law protect a person who has declared contempt to revealed foundations on which that law was based?

Bro Nur, it seems that you are arguing here that there the apostate is not protected by any laws like those the Ahlul Kitab and others are protected within the agreements. It seems like a minor technicality reather than a Law.

 

 

The Sharia unanimously sets death penalty for an apostate after being given reasonable time to repent, no one in his right mind should forgo to at least save his skin by claiming that he repented while concealing bis disbelief, but when that person fights for his right to declare and practice his disbelief, one wonders about his motives.

Bro Nur, let's assume that we living in a land that enforces Shari'a that the apostate in question has NO motives at all but just simply does not believe. Is the ruling on him different then? There seems to be ambiguities atleast from the way I understood your points.

 

 

 

 

 

A group of the people of the book conspired and said "Convert to Islam in the early part of the day, and become apostates at the end of that day, so that (Muslims) becomes apostates (like us), and do not believe (in any Mulsim) unless he is following our faith, say (O Muhammad) guidance is (ONLY) the guidnace of Allah SWT

.

From this it seems that only those who plan on "creating unrest in the land" (as Surah Mai'dah clearly says) should justifiably be put to death for their actions. It seems that they are not being persecuted for disbelief but for the agendas they have.

 

 

Brother Syed claims:

There is no historical record, which indicates that Muhammad (pbuh) or any of his companions ever sentenced anyone to death for apostasy.

 

There are many, please refer to the hadeeth about Omar killing a Muslim who refused ruling in favor of a Jew by the Prophet, the Muslims refusal constituted apostacy, and was killed for it.

If we refer to the Hadith I posted above from Sahih Bukhari, some Sahabas refused to follow the orders of the Prophet SAWS on 'The Calamity of Thursday' so it is not enough to use this as a justification because as the hadith explains, they refused to listen to listen to the orders of the Prophet SAWS and (if we follow your pattern of thought) that should also constitute as apostasy. The Qur'an clearly says...

 

“Obey Allah and his Prophet and if you dispute, then on him is what is imposed and on you is what is imposed on you; and if you obey him you are guided aright; and there is no duty on the Prophet save the clear deliveryâ€. (Suratul Nur 24:54.)

 

 

“Obey Allah and Obey his Prophet and worry, and be warned that the Prophet’s duty is only to deliver the message clearly†(Al-Mai'dah 5:92.)

 

 

Sharia is Dynamic, its first priority is self preservatiuon, no one can argue to use Sharia to abolish Sharia, opening the door for mockery without penalty could make it possible for allowing non Muslims to convert to temporarily marry Muslims women, and then apostate back after they have tried "Muslim" women as the case in Canada when a convert confided to a friend that he converted to Islam just to try a Muslim woman, other motives could be more severe, unless the Sharia activates controil mechanisms for protecting the faithful, Islam will be made a joke just like Christianity and Judaism, next thing will be for some enlightened "Muslims" to argue for the acceptance of other lifestyle based people to be accepted as full members of the community.

Again, the reader gets the impression that it's the intentions of the apostate that is the main focus point and not the act of apostasy itself. InshaAllah I'm looking forward to more clear-cut references where one can see beyond doubt that the killing of an apostate is justified solely on the act of disbelief itself and not the motives behind the apparent disbelief.

 

Allah SWT says in the Holy Qur'an that He seals the hearts of those who disbelieve...

 

As for the disbelievers, whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom. (Al-Baqarah 2:6-7.)

 

 

Allah SWT knows best!

[xiinfaniin]

EDITED.

[Nur]

Viking bro.

 

I whole heartedly agree that this was not the rebuttal i prepared for the article, if you have given me as much ( Xusnul Dhann) like you have given Br. Syed, you'd have seen my intial statement that I have written this response in haste inorder not to loose momentum since my bread winning activities were taking over most of my schedule and the topic was too hot to handle. But to be honest, your support for all of Br. Syed's premises and blanket rejection for all the logic behind my argument left me with questions about your impartiality as a neutral Nomad.

 

I notice that as the poster of the article, that you believe Br. Syed's points and you are not inclined to even give an iota of credebility to what I have written in such short time, an impromptu response from the top of my head.I realize that this challenge is actually good for me as you are helping a healthy debate, and helping me refine my convictions better.

 

Since my last post, Alhamdulillah, I have collected the substantiations to Br. Syed's rebuttal, The challenge infront of me now is to say it in English, isnhaAllah, with Allah's help, it will be done, so please visit again, half the fun is debating, before we resolve this question of yours.

 

 

Nur

[Viking]

But to be honest, your support for all of Br. Syed's premises and blanket rejection for all the logic behind my argument left me with questions about your impartiality as a neutral Nomad.

Bro Nur,

I have much respect for you but get disappointed everytime you attack me instead of adressing the issue at hand. You did this when we had the Sunni-Shi'a discussion where you constantly suspected me of having sinister motives. Do I have to agree to anything without clear proof? The author used verses from the Qur'an to support his points (this doesn't mean that I agree with him wholeheartedly, if that was the case, what would be the point of this discussion?). If you came with a clear verse from the Noble Qur'an then (as a Muslim) I'd have to accept it and abide by it 100% (samicnaa wa atacnaa). But a hadith that says someone was killed for not listenning to the Prophet SAWS doesn't mean that apostates are to be killed. I "logically" refuted the logic you applied by showing you that some Sahaba defied the orders of the Prophet SAWS too (as recorded in Sahih Bukhari) and that it would be equally unwise if someone was to say that they would be considered apostates because they refused to obey orders from the Messenger of Allah SWT.

 

Take as much time as you need bro and enlighten us on this difficult issue. In the meanwhile, please stop questionning my impartiality/sincerety everytime I don't agree with you, it is totally unIslamic.

[Nur]

Viking bro.

 

It is not personal, please dont take it that way, take it as advice from a fellow brother. I do not expect that you agree with me 100% on any issue, no two people on earth do, if that happens, one of them is unneccessary, but, all I asked was that you subject Br. syed statements the same scrutiny as your very thoughtful questioning. Brother Syed, dared to change an age old ruling on the punishment of Murtadd, so unanimously agreed even, shia and all four Madhabs of ahlul SAunnah wal jamaacah have traditionally accepted except for few scholars each with differening way of looking at it, and whose statements were amplified more than their true scholarly weight by bro. Syed, . For you to welcome is article without any questioning of his premises and conclusions, exposes you to be seen as though you agree with him 100%, and I know you may not, for that reason I asked you, to distribute your concerns equally as sign of impartiality.

 

Again I apologise for any statement of mine that may be interpreted to be out of step, Kamaal ( Perfection) is for Allah alone, the rest of us goof frequently, and I have my share of goofs which remind me to be humble, and further, I am no hollier than any Nomad, if not worse.

 

 

Nur

[Brother Warsameh]

My Faith in Jesus Christ the Messiah

Brother Warsameh

bwarsameh@yahoo.com

 

"In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted"2 Timothy 3:12

 

My Family Background

I was born to a very religious Somali family in a small village in western Somalia. I am a Somali. My parents were nomads. We did not have running water or electricity. We lived in small collapsible hut. My earliest memories of my life include one that I was riding on the back of a he camel and my mother was walking beside the camel singing beautiful melodies to me.

 

When I was few weeks old, I was initiated by one of the most well known and most feared men in the sub clan whom I would call “Shabelâ€. My mother and other women cheered when “Shabel†carried me around the hut repeating in my face “sidan yeelo yeel, saantayda qaadâ€, “Do as I do, follow my footstepsâ€. Some of the men fired live bullets into the sky to celebrate the important occasion known in Somali as gardaadis.

 

God forbid that I imitate “Shabel†or follow his footsteps; this man was a convicted felon and one of the most violent men in the region and a real folk hero to many.

 

I was never a typical Somali boy. I was “humble†and peaceful. This bothered my mother who started to call me girlish names in order to encourage me to act like a boy. In the nomadic Somali culture, boys are required to be rough and tough; they are taught early on to be aggressive and violent, too. Humility has no place in the Somali culture. I tried few times to act like a “boy†to please my mother and it ended up a disaster!

 

I was very curious and thoughtful even when I was a boy. I always questioned the conventional wisdom, the Islamic theology and the Somali culture. Though I did not intend to abandon Islam then, other boys started calling me names like the “priestâ€, and “Christianâ€. The village boys came to me when they wanted “intellectual†stimulation and they went to my hawkish brother when they wanted to be tough and rough.

 

 

I grew up in Mogadishu where I worked and finished high school. My father was a well-known religious leader and a well-respected tribal leader. He memorized the entire Qur'an in Arabic, even though he could not speak Arabic very well. The Qu'ran is roughly the size of the Christian New Testament.

 

My father trained Muslim religious teachers for the propagation of Islam; he also gave me a very solid Muslim religious education for he wanted me to succeed him as a religious leader. Little did he know that I would become a follower of Jesus the Messiah and propagate His message of repentance and salvation.

 

How the Lord Found Me

Since the Qur'an says many good things about Jesus the Messiah, I decided to study Him and His teachings as well. So, I obtained the Holy Bible, Kitaabka Qudduuska Ah, in the English language. I shared with my father about my growing interest in Jesus Christ and my suspicion of the claims of Muhammad as the last prophet from God. He threatened to take my life away if I ever again openly questioned the claims and the trustworthiness of Islam.

After three years of studying the Bible, the Lord found me in 1986. The Holy Spirit was certainly working in me since 1983 but I continuously resisted his conviction until 1986.

 

Many passages in the Bible spoke to me directly like the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) but it is the totality of the Scripture and its authenticity that impacted me the most. I remember the day I totally surrendered to the Lord. I spoke to the Lord in my heart and confessed my ignorance and arrogance towards His Messiah and his Injeel (The New Testament). I repented of my sins and started a new life with the Lord. The radio broadcast Codka Nolosha Cusub (Voice of New Life) personnel in Nairobi, Kenya, helped me in answering many of my questions (through correspondence) and guided me in my walk with the Lord. It was a difficult journey but worthy of the effort.

 

The Lord used radio ministers to convict me of my sins and to understand my need for redemption. I always knew that I could never please God and earn salvation on my merits. The Bible assured me that all I needed to do to be saved was to repent and turn away from my sins and accept Christ as my Savior - no more dogma, or empty rituals and no more constant fear of whether I will end up in hell or in heaven. I got solid assurance in Jesus the Messiah.

 

One radio ministry that blessed me beyond measure was Codka Nolosha Cusub (Voice of New Life) beamed from the Seychelles. CNC sent me invaluable Bible study materials and I faithfully listened to their radio programs. Before I met any flesh and blood believers to learn from and to worship with, CNC was my main source of spiritual growth during my lonely walk with the Lord.

 

CNC sent me many materials that were extremely helpful, like Somali Christian hymns, praise and worship songs and Bible study materials. The fact that I heard Somali Christians speaking my own mother tongue on the radio was also encouraging - it was evident to me that Somalis could also follow the Messiah.

 

How My Family Reacted

My family was terribly disappointed when I shared with them my faith in Jesus the Messiah. My mother was the first person I confided my new faith in. I first told her that I found the Injeel (The New Testament) of Jesus that our religious leaders tell us was lost a long time ago. Then I showed her the entire Bible and told her that the Torah and Psalms were also there.

 

My mother did not believe me and dismissed my claims as baseless. I remember her telling me to fear Allah and not to abandon Islam. I could see she was red with anger and disappointment. She thought I was becoming a rebellious son—that was her concern. Some of my relatives were growing very impatient with me. They first thought I was beside myself and they repeatedly questioned my sanity. They threatened me with every conceivable punishment if I did not recant my faith. But I insisted on my newly found faith and freedom in the living Messiah who died on the cross for our sins, and who was resurrected from the dead on the third day, and now sits in heaven at the right hand of God.

 

I explained to them my reasoning for choosing Jesus over Muhammad. My point was clear and concise. I told them that God did not send any prophet to abrogate the Injeel of the Messiah. I told them that the Injeel was the final revelation of God and the Messiah Jesus Christ—the last messenger sent from God. The Injeel is the New Testament of the Christians.

 

I was finally told to leave home and I was disowned. This was a very painful experience in a culture where your identity and self worth are derived from your family. I automatically forfeited the acceptance and the protection of my clan and almost lost my job because of my faith in the Messiah.

 

The Somalis, like most Muslims, do not understand the Christian faith because they have never read the Bible. They only rely on and trust what their religious leaders tell them. For a Somali, Christianity and paganism are synonymous.

 

My family finally took me back as their son when their fear of "paganism" did not materialize. As a devout Muslim, I was always well behaved and was considerate. My good qualities increased when the Lord had found me and that surprised my Muslim family, relatives and friends. They couldn't believe that the Messiah had made me a better person.

 

The Price

Though the Lord found me in 1986, I did not meet any other Christians until 1992. My short-wave radio was my "church" and my "pastor". But things suddenly changed in 1992 when I met my first Somali Christian. A saintly and popular Swedish missionary introduced me to him in Mogadishu. Though I already knew this young man, I never knew he was a follower of the Messiah. He was an underground Christian just like me. Liibaan Ibraahim and I planted an underground house church in Mogadishu in 1993 and pastored it together. We had 14 members by early 1994.

 

Things went out of hand in 1994 when Muslims found out that there was a small but growing Christian community in their midst. Then, an unprecedented persecution broke out.

 

Liibaan was the first Christian martyr. He was shot to death early one morning when he was reporting to work. He was a nurse by training.

Dr. Ahmed Gobe was the next Somali Christian to be murdered. He was shot one evening when he was returning from his clinic. His bullet-ridden body was found the next morning.

Another member of our underground church who was martyred was Mohammed Haji. He was a former university professor who was educated in Canada. Mohammed was rebuilding the school system in Mogadishu that suffered under the civil war. He was then kidnapped and assassinated.

 

Another Somali Christian to be murdered was the famous Sheekh Doon. Sheekh Doon Was shot and killed, along with his Muslim wife, in their bedroom when some gunmen had broken into their home one night. Their children escaped physical harm.

Another Somali Christian member, Saleebaan Mohammed, was snatched from the bus he was riding home from work and was executed publicly in broad daylight because of his faith in Jesus the Messiah.

 

Only two members of our underground church in Somalia have survived the carnage, me and another believer. Of the 14 in our church 12 were martyred. The murderers are still roaming in the streets of Mogadishu with impunity. The local authorities are not holding them responsible but the Lord will.

 

God has accepted those martyrs into His glorious Kingdom of Heaven. They were faithful to Jesus Christ and to His Testimony until the end. As Jesus said in the Book of Revelation chapter 2, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life." May God grant that those murderers will come to see the light that Jesus Christ is Lord, may they ask Jesus Christ to forgive them of their sins, or they will burn and suffer eternally in the lake of fire, the second death. For God alone has power over the second death.

 

Epilogue

After several attempts on my life, I left Somalia for another country in 1996 for fear of my life. I joined a Bible college there where I earned a Bachelor of Theology degree after four years of hard work. While in school, I periodically traveled to Somalia to plant underground house churches. This underground ministry produced strong house churches and capable church leaders. I have recently graduated from seminary earning a Master of Divinity degree in missiology. I am an ordained elder and the only Christian in my family.

 

I led Shabel’s eldest son to the Lord several years ago! Today, Shabel’s son is one of the best-known underground Somali church leaders.

 

Today there are many Somali Christians around the world and house churches as well. Most of Somali Christians live in East Africa but many have resettled in the West-primarily North America and the UK.

 

 

Originally posted by Khayr:

Salaamz,

 

Here is a quote from an article by

Ibrahim B. Syed, Ph. D.

from his website.

 

Title of the artile is 'Is Hijab Complustory?'

quote:

---

To wear the Hijaab is certainly NOT an Islamic obligatory on women. :eek: :eek: :eek: It is an innovation (Bid'ah) of men suffering from a piety complex who are so weak spiritually that they just cannot trust themselves!

If the Dr. Ibrahim Syed, the Author makes such a conclusion that is against the Islamic TRADITION

and goes against the quran and sunnah,

then his article about 'Apostasty in Islam'

ain't worth a Rebuttal at ALL!!!

 

Fi Amanillah

[Brother Warsameh]

Rumaysadkayga Sayid Ciise Masiix Brother Warsameh

bwarsameh@yahoo.com

 

“Runtii kuli inta doonaysaa in ay si cibaado leh Ciise Masiix ugu noolaadaan waa la silcin doonaaâ€

2 Timoteyos 3:12

 

 

Reerka aan ka Dhashay

Waxaan ka dhashay reer Soomaaliyeed oo ehelu diin ah aniga oo ku dhashay tuulo yar oo ku taal Galbeedka Soomaaliya. Waxaan ahay Soomaali aan carna isku rogin. Waalidkey waxay ahaayeen reer guuraa xoolo dhaqato ah. Waxaa guri innoo ahaa aqal Soomaali yar. Waxaan xusuustaa caruurnimadaydii aniga oo awr bacadle ah dusha ka saaran hooyana ay hoggaanka u hayso iyada oo weliba igu maaweelinaysa heeso caruureedyo wanaagsan.

 

Markii aan jiray uun dhowr isbuuc ayaa waxaa i gardaadiyey nin si weyn deegaanka oo dhan looga yiqiin aadna looga baqi jiray. Ninkan oo aan “Shabeel†ugu yeeri doono ayaa iga soo dhuftay gacmihii aabbahay oo markaa horay iyo dib iila car caray isaga oo igu leh “Sidaan yeelo yeel, saantayda qaad.†Qaar raggii tuulada ka mid ahaa ayaa kolkaa rasaas cirka u ganay haweenkiina way mashxaradeen si ay ugu damaashaadaan munaasabaddan muhiimka ah.

 

Eebbe ayaan ka nabad galay in aan raaco raadka “Shabeel†ama sidiisa oo kale u dhaqmo. Ninku wuxuu ahaa mid aysan xalaashu iyo xaraantu u kala soocnayn; wuxuu ahaa nin gacan fudud oo dagaal badan in kastuu dad badana geesi u ahaa.

 

Aniga yaraantaydii ma aanan ahayn wiil Soomaali reer guuraa ah sidii lagu yaqaanay. Waxaan ahaa mid aan isla weynayn oo nabadda jecel. Hooyaday ayaa tan dhibsatay. Alla imisa jeer ayaan dhegahayga ku maqlay iyada oo ku calaacalaysa “war wiilkan iyo ninkii gardaadiyay bal isu eega, xaggee masiibadu ka timidâ€! Sida aan la soconaba wiilasha reer miyiga waxaa lagu ababiyaa iyaga oo yar in ay libaaxyo yaryar noqdaan. Dhawr jeer ayaan isku daday inanimadaydii in aan libaax yar oo kale iska dhigo bal si aan hooyo uga farxiyo balse kuma guulaysan!

 

Markii aan yaraa waan feker dheeraa maskaxna badnaa. Waxaan su’aalo ka keeni jiray “waxa sidan loo yeelo oo sidan loo yeeli waayay.†Waxaan dood ka jeedin jiray diinta Islaamka iyo dhaqanka Soomaalida oo ay galdaloolo iiga muuqdeen. Wakhtigaas isaga ah iguma jirin in aan isaga baxo diinta Islaamka in kasta oo caruurta kale ay iigu yeeri jirieen magacyo ay ka mid yihiin “baadariâ€, “Kirishtaan†iwm. Ciyaalka xaafada aniga ayay ii man jireen marka ay fekero xeel dheer doonayaan waxayna u tegi jireen walaalkayga dagaalka badan marka ay doonayeen in ay libaaxyo yaryar iska dhigaan.

 

Waxaan ku soo koray waxna ku soo bartay Muqdishu. Dugsiga sare waxaan ku soo dhameeyay Xamar aniga oo halkaasna ka soo shaqeeyay. Aabbahay wuxuu ahaa wadaad aad loo xusheemyo loona qadariyo waxaana intaas u dheeraa isaga oo jilibka aan ka dhashay u ahaa hoggaamiye dhaqameed. Aabbahay wuxuu ahaa xaafidul Qur’aan aad u fidin jiray diinta. Aabbahay aad ayuu ii baray diinta Islaamka isaga oo damacsanaa in aan noqdo wadaad isaga oo kale ah xilkiisana aan la wareego marka wakhtigiisu dhamaado. Shaki la’aan lama uusan socon in aan mar uun noqon doono Masiixi raaca Sayid Ciise Masiix fidiyana Injiilkiisa tawbadkeenka iyo badbaadada.

 

Sida Rabbigu ii Hanuuniyey

Maadaama uu Qur’aanku wanaag badan ka sheego Sayid Ciise Masiix ayaan go’aansaday in aan barto Masiixa iyo risaaladiisaba. Waxaan gacanta ku dhigay Kitaabka Qudduuska Ah (Holy Bible) oo ku turjunnaa af Ingiriis. Waxaan aabbahay la wadaagay xiisahayga sii kordhaya ee aan u hayay Sayid Ciise Masiix iyo tuhunka iga sii gelaya sheegashada Maxamed ee ah in uu yahay nebigii ugu dambeeyay ee Eebbe soo diray. Aabbahay wuxuu iigu hanjabay in uu nafta iga qaadi doonaa haddii aan mar kale sidan oo kale aan wax uga sheego “nebi†Maxamed iyo Islaamkaba.

 

Saddex sanno kadib oo aan baranayay Kitaabka Qudduuska Ah ayaa Rabbigu i hanuuniyey hanuun cad sannadku markuu ahaa 1986. Dhowr aayad oo ku yaala Kitaabka Qudduuska Ah ayaa si gaar ah ii taabtay sida “wacdigii Ciise dadka ku wacdiyey markuu buurta joogay†oo laga heli karo Matayos 5-7. Run ahaantii waxaa aad ii raali geliyey Kitaabka guud ahaantiis iyo runta risaalada uu sido.

 

Waan xusuustaa maalintii aan Rabbiga isu dhiibay oo aan tawbad keenay aniga oo rumaystay Masiixiisa qaatayna Injiilkiisa.

 

Idaacadda Codka Nolosha Cusub ayaa ee Nairobi, Kenya, ayaa aad iiga caawisay sidii aan si qoto dheer ugu fahmi lahaa una baran lahaa iimaankayga cusub.

 

Rabbigu wuxuu isticmaalay dad ka wacdiya idaacado bal si aan u garto mugdiga aan ku noolaa una fahmo baahida aan u qabo badbaadadiisa. Horay ayaan u ogaa in aanan marnaba badbaadadayda shaqaysan karaynin balse sida lagu helo deeqda badbaadada Eebbe lama aanan socon. Kitaabka Qudduuska Ah ayaan ka bartay in waxa keliya ee la iga doonayaa si aan u badbaado ay uun tahay aniga oo tawbad keena rumaystana Sayid Ciise Masiix. Waxaa halkaas iiga haray diin hal xiraale ah iyo welwelkii aan ka qabay bal janno ama naar midda aan ku dambayn doono marka wakhtigaygu dhamaado. Sayid Ciise Masiix waxaan ka helay badbaado sugan oo hubanti ah.

 

Idaacadda Codka Nolosha Cusub oo laga soo baahiyo Seychelles ayaa aad iiga gargaartay barashada Kitaabka. Idaacaddani waxay ii soo dirtay buugaag iyo kutub iyo qalab kale oo iga kaalmeeyay barashada Kitaabka. Intii aanan si weji ka weji ah ula kulmin Masiixi kale oo aan Rabbiga la caabudo kalana faa’iideysanno, CNC ayaa ii ahayd isha iigu muhiimsan ee koritaanka iimaankayga. Markii aan ka maqlay CNC dad Soomaaliyeed oo ku hadlaya afkayga hooyo ayay i gashay farxad weyn iyo dhiiranaani waayo waxaa ii sii cadaatay in ay jiraan Soomaali kale oo Masiixiyiin ah.

 

Reerkaygu aad ayuu uga naxay markii aan noqday Masiixi. Waxaan xusuustaa hooyaday oo naar iiga digaysa kadib markii aan la wadaagay in aan Masiixi noqday. Waxaan hooyo u sheegay in aan helay Injiilkii nebi Ciise oo ay culumadeennu innoogu sheekeeyaan in uu lumay waa hore! Waxaan dabadeed tusiyay Kitaabka Qudduuska Ah oo dhan aniga oo u sheegayna in Tawreed iyo Sabuurna ay halkaa ku jiraan.

 

Hooyaday aad ayay iiga xumaatay waana ii carootay oo waxayba u qaadatay in aan caasi noqday. Qaar ka mid ah qaraabadayda ayaa aad ii colaadiyey oo ii fafakanay si ay ii wax yeelayaan. Markii hore waxay moodayeen in aan yara waashay balse markii ay hubsadeen in aan jinni ka fayoobahay ayay aad ii colaadiiyeen iiguna hanjabeen dil iwm.

 

Waxaan ku adkaystay caqiidadayda cusub iyo xornimada aan ka helay Masiixa iskutallaabta ku dhintay kadibna dhimashada ka soo sara kacay si uu demiyadeenna innooga cafiyo una helno badbaado.

 

Ehelkayga iyo saaxiibadaydiiba waxaan u sharraxay sababta aan u doortay Sayid Ciise Masiix una diiday Maxamed. Hadal maa aan badine arrintii ayaan toos u abaaray beerkana uga dhacay; waxaan u sheegay in aanan rumasynayn in Eebbe nebi ka soo daba diray Sayid Ciise Masiix si nebigaasi u keeno risaalo cusub oo qilaafsan tii hore.

 

Ehelkayga ayaa ugu dambayntii i deyriyey iina sheegay in aan guriga uga tago oo aan aragooda dhaafo.Waxaa ii colloobay saaxiibadaydii waxaana iga goostay ehelkii oo dhan. Waxaan ku dhawaaday in aan waayo shaqadaydii sababo la xiriira rumaysadkayga Sayid Ciise Masiix.

 

Sida aan la soconaba dadkeennu ma fahamsana diinta Masiixiga weligoodna Kitaabka Qudduuska Ah ma akhriyin. Soomaalidu waxayba moodayaan in Masiixinimada iyo gaalnimadu ay isku mid yihiin!

 

Ugu dambeyntii waan la heshiiyey reerkaygii iyo ehelkii oo dhanba kadib markii “gaalnimadii†ay filayeen ay iiga muuqan weyday. Anigu waxaan horay u ahaa Muslim nadiif ah oo aad u toosan edeb iyo anshaxna lagu yiqiin. Tayooyinkaygaas wanaagsani waa uun sii kordheen markii aan hanuunay. Ehelkaygu waa rumaysan waayay in wanaag mooyee aan waxa dhib ahi iiga imman caqiidadayda cusub. Anigu weligay ma yeelan balwad ha ahaato sigaar ama qaad ama wasx ka sii fool xunba. Waxaa mahad leh Eebbaha aniga sidan ii dhawray.

 

Silcin

Inkastoo aan Masiixi noqday 1986 lama aanan kulmin wax Masiixiyiin kale ah illaa 1992. Raadiye yar oo aan lahaa ayaa ii ahaa halka keliya ee aan caqiidada ka kororsado. Si degdeg ah ayay arrimuhu isu bedeleen 1992 markaas oo aan la kulmay Soomaali Masiixi ah. Islaan aad loo jeclaa oo u dhalatay Sweden ayaa isku keen bartay Liibaan magaalkada Muqdisho. Waan garanayay Liibaan balse weligey ma ogayn in uu Masiixi ahaa oo imaankiisa wuu qarsan jiray cabsi darted. Liibaan iyo anigu waxaan kiniisad yar oo guri ku kulanta ka aasaasnay Muqdishu 1993. Liibaan iyo aniga ayaa wadajir kiniisadaas yar wadaaddo uga ahayn. Horraantii 1994 waxaan gaarnay 14 xubnood.

 

Xeero iyo fandhaal waxay kala dhaceen 1994 markii la ogaaday in koox yar oo sii koraysa Masiixiyiinna ahi ay kiniinsad ka samaysteen meel xaafadooda ah. Waa markaas markii silciska runta ahi bilowday.

 

Liibaan ayaa ahaa shahiidkii ugu horreeyay; waxaa la toogtay subax hore isaga oo sii shaqo tegayo. Liibaan wuxuu ahaa kalkaaliye caafimaad. Dr. Goobe oo aad looga yiqiin Muqdishu ayaa isna ku xigay; Goobe waxaa la toogtay habeen isaga oo ka soo baxay rug caafimaad oo uu ka shaqaynayay. Maydkiisa oo rasaas badani ku taal ayaa aroortii la helay.

 

Waxaa isna la afduubay kadibna la dilay Maxamed Xaaji oo bare ka ahaan jiray Jaamacadda Ummadda Soomaaliyeed. Xaajigu wuxuu wax ku soo bartay Canada wuxuuna ahaa xilligii la dilayay samafale aad loo jeclaa.

 

Waxaa isna la dilay Sheekh Doon oo lala toogtay xaaskiisii Muslimadda ahayd kadib markii qolo hubaysani u soo dhacday habeen iyaga oo hurda. Nasiib wanaag caruurtooda ayaa ka badbaaday rasaastii la huwiyay waalidkood xilli ayba hurdayeen.

 

Saleebaan ayaa ahaa isna Masiixi qaali ah oo shahiiday kadib markii qolooyin asal raac ahi kala degeen baskii uu saarnaa xilli uu ka soo baxay shaqadiisii oo uu ku soo jeeday gurigiisa. Waxaa Saleebaan la toogtay dharaar cad iyada oo ay arkayaan dadkii baska la saarnaa.

 

Laba qof oo keliya ayaa ka badbaaday gawraca loola bareeray Masiixiyiinta Soomaaliyeed oo aan waxba galabsan—aniga iyo mid kale oo aanan magacaabi karayn.

 

Gacan ku dhiigleyaalkii geystay dilalka ayaa maanta xornimo ku socda waddooyinka Muqdisho waana la garanaya kuwa ay yihiin. Eebbe ayaa la xisaabtami doona iyaga.

 

Eebbe waa uu aqbalay shahiidiintaas iyaga oo ah runtii kuwo guulaystay waayo waxay daacad u ahaayeen sayid Ciise Masiix illaa dhimashada. Eebbe ayaa ku leh Kitaabkiisa “Illaa dhimashada aamin ahaw, anna waxaan ku siiin doonaa taajka nolosha†Muujintii 2:10b.

 

Eebbe gacan ku dhiiglayaasha ha soo hanuuniyo hana noqdaan kuwo rumaysta Sayid Ciise Masiix illeyn sidaas oo keliya ayay ku liibaani karaane.

 

Gebagebo

Kadib markii isku dayo dhawr ah lagu sameeyay naftayda ayaan isaga tegay Soomaaliya oo aan u kcitimay waddan kale 1996. Waxaan halkaas ku biiray jaamacad aniga oo ka qalin jebiyaay 4 sanno kadib aniga oo qaatay shahaadada loo yaqaan Bachelor of Theology (B.Th.). Intii aan jaamacadda dhiganayay waxaan joogto u soo booqan jiray Soomaaliya si aan halkaas dadka ula qaybsado iimaankayga. Maanta waxaa dalkii ka jira kiniisado guriyeedyo badan oo ay hogaaminayaan mu’miniin aqoon iyo xigmad leh. Waxaan dhawaan ka qalin jebiyay Jaamacad kale aniga oo qaatay shahaadada loo yaqaan Master of Divinity (M.Div.). Waxaan ahay wadaad qaliifan oo u guntan ku noolaanshaha nolol qudduus ah iyo wacdinta dadkayga.

 

Sannado dhawr ah ka hor ayaan wacdiyay curadkii “Shabeel†oo sidaas Masiixi ku noqday. Maanta ina “Shabeel†waa mid ka mid ah hogaamiyeyaasha kiniisadda Soomaaliyeed ugu caansan.

 

Maanta waxaa jira Masiixiyiin Soomaaliyeed oo badan oo ku kala firirsan dunida oo idil iyo weliba kiniisado guriyeedyo. Masiixiyiintaas badankoodu waxay ku nool yihiin Bariga Afrika balse qaar badan ayaa u soo guuray Woqooyiga America iyo dalka Ingiriiska.

[Brother Warsameh]

XISBI KIRISHTAAN AH OO LAGA DIIDAY IN LAGA DIIWAAN GELIYO SOMALILAND.

 

 

Waxaa si weyn looga hadal hayaa magaalada Burco oo ka tirsan goboka Tog-dheer in lagu hungoobay mar kale in lagu soo dgex qaldo xisbi kirishtaan ah oo laga diiday in laga diiwan geliyo Somaliland Sannadkii 1991-kii Xisbiga Kirishtaanka .

 

 

Xisbigaas oo dano gaar ah aga lahaa ayeey iska diiden dadweynaha Soomaaliland oo 100% muslim ah kooxaha xisbigaas u ololeeya ayaa dadaal ka wada gudaha Jamhuuriyadda Somaliland iyo dibeddaba

 

C/fitaax Maxamed Salaad (Diyeeshe)

 

Gobanimo.com, Mogadishu-Somalia

 

 

Source: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:DoQcbmxTRdgJ:www.gobanimo.com/Aqoonsi.htm+kirishtaan&hl=en

[xiinfaniin]

Although you gladly confessed apostasy and spewed on us the ugly narrative and the historicity of your treacherous activities, I must say your unwelcome entry of this site illustrates quite convincingly that this crime is serious one and has far reaching consequence. It establishes that apostasy and treason are two sides of the same coin and can hardly be separated. And it commits to the flames that loose argument of this thread’s article, which wrongly but perhaps with sincere intention suggested that apostasy is not as serious crime as Muslims are led to believe and genuinely, but with astounding failure, attempted to present an argument for its permissibility! But in the light of your theatrical presentation of how skillfully you played that double-crossing game of yours the gist of that article and the hesitation of some nomads on this site seem to beg the question.

 

How would you differentiate between apostasy and treason? Or would you not mind for apostate to actively undertake conversion missions and spread s/he message in the midst of us? If you would, would you there fore go against freedom to choose any faith and present its message to others? That should leave you scratching your head!

 

For your own safety and information apostasy deservedly is punishable by the ultimate penalty, which’s death. But that said, I believe this religion of ours is against vigilant justice and it demands these حدود to be carried out under Islamic government, which Somalia lacks today. Thusly your co-religions in Somalia should be save unless they live within jurisdiction of the Mogadishu Islamic courts as I believe as an entity they meet the criteria of implementing these laws.

 

And finally let me predict that your live expectancy in this site will be short as I expect the moderator to spare us from your wicked sermons. This can’t possibly be a platform where you launch those doomed thoughts of yours.

 

But this writing would not be complete without wishing you to see the light of guidance and return to your rightful place!

[bilan]

xiinfiniin,i do not think he should be banned just because he is not muslim,this site should be welcoming everyone regardless of their religion as long as they do not insult anyone. prophet(PPUH) had a dialogue with non-muslims in his mosque,and that is how islam spread,if muslims followed your way islam would not have reached far asia or africa.how do you expect people to find out islam if they are not allowed to express their feelings and doubts, maybe this man and people like him never had the chance to talk someone that can show what islam is.

[Nur]

Warsame

 

Welcome to Somaliaonline islam pages, we appreciate your contribution and reading about your life experience and conversion to Christianity.

 

Could you please elaborate more about your knowledge about Islam before your conversion, what was your age when you converted to christianity? and how much did you understand the Quran and the Sunnah?

 

Comsider this as your exit interview (similar to those given employees who quit their jobs)

 

 

Xiinfaniin

 

Walaal, Warsame, no matter how much one disagrees with him, he is welcome to share with the audience his experience, there is no other way we can learn from each other unless we shares our experiences, and we hope to have fruitful dialogue with our fellow Somali Christian.

 

 

Nur

[xiinfaniin]

Bilan and Nur you guys may be right. And good luck with your engagemant with Warsame.

[Khayr]

Salaamz

 

 

I was born to a very religious Somali family in a small village in western Somalia. I am a Somali.

 

...My father trained Muslim religious teachers for the propagation of Islam

So he's born in a muslim family, thus a muslim-right?

 

After three years of studying the Bible, the Lord found me in 1986. The Holy Spirit was certainly working in me since 1983 but I continuously resisted his conviction until 1986.

and Nur's statement of the ruling from the what the Ulama say

 

4. A natural Muslim who became apostate: His ruling is similar to that of those Abu Bakar waged war of apostates ( Xuruubul Ridda).

Welcome to Somaliaonline islam pages, we appreciate your contribution and reading about your life experience and conversion to Christianity.

 

Nur,

please explain this to me and how it is in agreement with what you wrote earlier on in this thread about the 'SUBJECT MATTER'

 

How does someone 'appreciate' Apostacy, especially in a public forum??? :confused:

 

Fi Amanillah

[Nur]

Brother Kheyr.

 

As Brother Xiinfanin said earlier, the Islamic Fiqh ( Jurisprudence) grew out of an Islamic state that accepted its rulings, you can not enforce Fiqh rulings in makeshift courts, and even when an Islamic state finds that some of its members are apostates, the wise thing to do is to understand their motives and circumstances that led them to become an apostate in the first place, in the best of ways as Allah SWT says : Wa quuluu lil naasi xusnaa" Say good (words) to people.

 

The good words that we say do not mean a compromise on our beliefs, but simply a learning process in which our first priority is to save a fellow Somali from the punishment of Allah SWT which is by far worse than any punishment a human can mete out.

 

What I appreciate is Warsame's candidness in sharing his life history of his conversion to Christianity, (NOT THE FACT THAT HE CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY), as deplorable that fact is seen by Allah SWT, it is still the way we see it, not the way Warsame sees it, it is therefore in our best interest to engage Brother Warsame in a respectful way so he can too see it our way, for the purpose of finding a common word.

 

To us that word is Laa ilaaha ilallaah, the epitome of Tawheed , the absolute oneness of the Almighty for which all Messengers were sent, in contrast, to a Christian, that word is Jesus, as they see him the embodiment and encarnation of God as a human (subxaanahu wa tacaalaa cammaa yaquuluuna culuwan kabeeraa).

 

Discussing the Fiqh Issue of the ruling of Muslims apostates, is one thing, applying the specific rulings of that Fiqh is another thing, and I hope that you are not suggesting that we apply it on Brother Warsame on this forum by talking nasty to him, that would be against rules of engagement, and simplistic, since that would deny him the opportunity of understanding and appreciating our faith as dearly as we do.

 

There is no questoon that all scholars agree that an Apostate should be engaged in a positive manner and taught what he may have overlooked, he should also be respected, and given ample time to reconsider his conversion.

 

Unfortunatley, you have failed to highlight the most important quotes that I wrote, such as my question about his knowledge of Islam when he converted. Why did I ask that question? because, his knowledge or lack of the knowledge of crucial Tawheed principles matters tremmendously in later rulings as apostacy means changing a faith, while a person who was a Muslim by Firta (Default) alone, ignorant of details of the aqeedah (beliefs)and who later adopted a differnt faith is exempted from these rulings which are conditional to prior ample knowledge, as we will visit once I post my rebuttal.

 

Thus, I have launched a new page that will allow him and any other Somali Christian to discuss with Somali Muslims on this forum about their faith and ours.

 

To be calm and patience and tolerant when discussing with others who come from a different persuation is a sign of a desire to help others find the light we found, not a sign of weakness. "Strength", Prophet Mohammad said, "is not the ability to conquer others, but the ability to control ones ( bad actions, words, intentions) while under the influence of anger.

 

 

Nur

[Viking]

Bro Nur,

I know what Syed did is very controversial and against all the schools of thought. I have not accepted his argument wholeheartedly 9although it might seem that way to you), however, it is an issue that needs clarification (for people with little knowledge Like I) and your previous response didn't offer any further clarification to the matter. There are many verses that Syed has used to support his claim, one is found in Suratul Baqarah There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing . I'm hoping that you will make clear what this verse means and explain whether there are different intepretations. I'm looking forward and hoping to benefit from your response on this subject.

 

 

Again I apologise for any statement of mine that may be interpreted to be out of step, Kamaal ( Perfection) is for Allah alone, the rest of us goof frequently, and I have my share of goofs which remind me to be humble, and further, I am no hollier than any Nomad, if not worse.

Apology accepted bro. It wasn't something I "intepreted to be out of step" but rather a clear conclusion you had reached that I was being impartial for my "blanket rejection for all the logic behind" your arguments. I didn't reject your logic without clearly looking at it but proved to you that a hadith which says someone was killed for disobeying the Prophet SAWS could NOT be used in support of killing apostates (simply because there is a Sahih Hadith that clearly states that some Sahaba refused to listen to the Prophet).