Hadeeth Science, an e-Nuri Primer

[Nur]

Reality Check

 

You Write:

 

 

I cant answer these questions for you, Nur. All I asked you to do is back up statements you have made.

 

My Dear Sister.

 

You are ellusive by dodging to admit that the Sunnah is important, Because if you admit, the natural question would be, how to enforce it, then you'd logically answer your own question. But clearly you dont want to for some reason benknown only to Allah.

 

The second point that you've also cleaverly avoided to answer was that the verse clearly threatened those who OPPOSE or fail to follow the Prophets Sunnah with( FITNAH,) Because if you admit and agree to this clear fact in Quraan, which everyone with a simple understanding of the English Language can easily see, then , your question would have been, " what is FITNAH? " the answer of which I was planning to explain its far reaching meaning that includes KUFR as a result, hence proving to you that IT CAN LEAD TO KUFR, but you dont have to take my word for it my dear sister in Islam, Take Allah's words for it which you have categorically requested, and nothing but the Quraan.

 

 

FITNAH in Quraan depending in the context its revealed can mean:

 

1. Test. ( After which a person proves his/her faith or becomes kaafir(a)

 

2. Loss of faith ( Like the case of the learned and follower of Children of Isreal)

 

3. Temptation ( Wealth, and the opposite sex).

 

 

In the Surah al Nur, the meaning of this serious threat ( Painful Punishment) is that if any person ignores, or opposes, or is in contempt of the teachings, ways, directives of the Messenger of Allah, then its tantamount to a disrespect to Allah SWT, since the Prophet SAWS is representing Allah as His Messeneger.

 

To support my point here are a host of verses, let see if you accept them. I am quoting them by order of relevance.

 

1. Nisaa 115: Allah says:

 

And whoso OPPOSESES the messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer's way, We appoint for him that unto which he himself hath turned, and expose him unto hell - a hapless journey's end!

 

 

2. Nisaa 65: Allah says:

 

But nay, by thy Lord, they will not believe (in truth) until they make thee judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of that which thou decidest, and submit with full submission.

 

 

3. AHZAAB 36: Allah says:

 

And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.

 

 

4. Nisaa 14: Allah says:

 

And whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger and transgresseth His limits, He will make him enter Fire, where he will dwell for ever; his will be a shameful doom.

 

 

I have intentionally left the verses without tafseer ( Explanation), hoping that you'd do it for an exercise.

 

 

Nur

[Socod_badne]

Nur,

 

RealityCheck has a chip on her shoulder. So transparent if she was anymore she'd be invisible.

[Nur]

Socod Badane

 

Brilliant descrpiption indeed saaxiib, could it be that she is too close to see, that my vision is blurred, thus too transparent? a little more transparency, and I can hear the Ocean Waves of Mogadishu b reaking on the shores! There is nothing to see!

 

 

Nur

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

Nur,

 

RealityCheck has a chip on her shoulder. So transparent if she was anymore she'd be invisible.

wow. who are you again? The man made a statement, I asked for proof. Can you kindly explain to me why you came to such conclusions.

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Nur:

Socod Badane

 

Brilliant descrpiption indeed saaxiib, could it be that she is too close to see, that my vision is blurred, thus too transparent? a little more transparency, and I can hear the Ocean Waves of Mogadishu b reaking on the shores! There is nothing to see!

 

 

Nur

You preach on SOL, and in the same breath, insult members. tsk tsk, Nur.

[Nur]

Reality Check

 

 

By complaining only about my humor with Socod badane about your ellusive tactics in dabating, I assume that you agree with my last response to you. At least we have finally proved that opposing the Prophet is a GRAVE SIN that leads to KUFR.

 

its rather strange though that you dont see what Socod Badane Said about you in the first place as an insult, indeed its strange, I am beginning to doubt about your motives on this forum, you avoid answering the questions that were leading to answer your question, and then you cry INSULT everytime you become frustrated for being unable to debate logically. To be taken seriously, be honest with yourself first when you debate, dont be ellusive sis, it is an honest advice.

 

 

Nur

[Naden]

Originally posted by Reality Check:

 

"Deem not the summons of the Messenger among yourselves like the summons of one of you to another: Allah doth know those of you who slip away under the shelter of some excuse: then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, Lest some trial befall them, or a grievous Penalty be inflicted on them" (24:63)

 

considering that I concede with your interpretation of the orders/summons/commandments" to be the Sunnah, and not in fact referring to the Messenger bringing the Holy Text, then using this ayaat, it says there will be a penalty (i.e. punishment).

Reality Check, I was wondering how you came to concede that the summons in the verse refers to what is commonly referred to as Sunnah (which includes what is called ahadith). I agree with you that the verse does not refer to any punishment for a rejection of this common reference or comes close to kufr. The verse is preceeded by several instructions that put proper and respectful manners at the center of the interaction of muslims amongst each other and with the prophet (csw) including seeking permission when entering private versus non-private homes.

 

Verse 62 holds the believers who meet with the prophet in a matter of the gama’a responsible for respecting this manner of shura. That is done by participating and not leaving until one asks for permission. The prophet (csw) is then given a choice to grant them leave or not. The way I understand it, the admonishment to not leave is to preserve the coherence of the group and their active presence is a must for shura or consensus. Or else any hypocrite or anarchist or the just plain lazy can come and leave as they please without committing to the group’s matter. As the leader, the prophet (csw) led and instructed in the manner of shura.

 

Verse 63 is then a direct order to believers not to take the summons of the messenger lightly and not sneak away from the shura for trivial reasons. The shura in this instance could certainly be the elements of the holy text (as you had initially said) and laws, to iimaan, good deeds, or the day-to-day concerns of the group of believers at the time. What is termed as sunnah and not rejecting it may be an interpretation of this particular verse. However, the sequence of verses leads to a lesson in akhlaq and mannerisms for the believers. It is also a relevant lesson, I believe, to those of us who are alive now to commit in behaviour and intention to the matters of consensus.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Reality Check:

who are you again?

 

The last emperor of China.

 

 

Can you kindly explain to me why you came to such conclusions.

I have eyes. I see. I saw you had chip on your shoulder. What about you? How do you come to conclusions?

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

quote:Originally posted by Reality Check:

who are you again?

 

The last emperor of China.

 

 

Can you kindly explain to me why you came to such conclusions.

I have eyes. I see. I saw you had chip on your shoulder. What about you? How do

you

come to conclusions?

What is a Chinese emperor doing wasting his time on SOL. :rolleyes:

 

I'm not the one here making statements of facts without solid proof. If that means I have a chip on my shoulder, it is probably from the Ketchup chips I've been munching on, 'k.

[Khalaf]

question reality check: are you saying your question (not following hadiths-sunnah of nabi scw) equals grave sin was not answered here? If u didnt get an answer u wanted.....then can you tell us why? and if u disagree with: that it is a grave sin.....can u tell us how as well.......its fair question dont u think?

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Reality Check:

I'm not the one here making statements of facts without solid proof.

Alas, there is your problem little one. The notion that proofs and statements facts will be forthcoming from discourse of this nature. Put it this way, if two people disagree like you and Nur have on a subject matter like this (meaning: that which exists only in language and not in reality), what can you go to that'll resolve the matter? Is there objective guidlines delineated by objective being (in this case only Allah would qualify) that you can use to say, "aha!, you broke rule number 2 of correct hermaneutics of Axadiith reading." The answer is obviously no. All opinions proffered are just mere opinions with the caveat not all opinions are created equal. So, when Nur gives his take, he can only bring along textual backing and HIS interpretation of them. But textual support is just textual support. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

So, when Nur gives his take, he can only bring along textual backing and HIS interpretation of them.

This is what I asked for, and he gave me his answer. Then, I thanked him for trying.

 

 

End of story.

[Khalaf]

Trying implies coming up short. It is clear that the original question was answered, and for reasons known only to Allah Most High some refuse to accept those answers, and dodge this debate, and the ayats of the Quran which say none have faith until they comply with the sayings of the nabi scw........ these are not interpretations but articles of faith. Two the Glorious Quran is not a mere text...........it is the words of Allah Most High.

 

Inshallah keep up the dawah yaa Nur.......work would be boring without SOL....Nurs writings.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

the ayats of the Quran which say none have faith until they comply with the sayings of the nabi scw........

Now, this is egregious lie. The Quran doesn't say anything, there's only what we say the Quran says. And short of impartial Golden Standard for proper interpretation or empirical facts we can appeal to, we're stuck with competing often irreconcilable interpretations.

 

 

Two the Glorious Quran is not a mere text...........it is the words of Allah Most High.

No one ever hinted otherwise. The only point of contention is the subjectivity inherent in any interpretation proffered.

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

Now, this

is

egregious lie.

The Quran doesn't say anything,

there's only what

we

say the Quran says. And short of impartial Golden Standard for proper interpretation or empirical facts we can appeal to, we're stuck with competing often irreconcilable interpretations.

lol.......the Quran says worship Allah Alone....i guess another interpration can be no it says to worship Jesus...or a calf.

 

A sign of the hypocrites is that they lack understanding of the deen, mock the sunnah, and argue instead of increasing their knowledge. May Allah forgive our sins and give us guideness.