Hadeeth Science, an e-Nuri Primer

[Nur]

Reality Check

 

Writes :

 

"Now you said not following sahiih hadith is a GRAVE sin and leads to Kufar. List your sources."

 

 

To be precise, this is what I wrote:

 

A Hadeeth of this category enjoys the highest credibility, it is used in the Sharia as an augmentation of the explanation of the Quraan. Denial of a Hadeeth in this category is a grave sin and it can lead to Kufr.

 

 

 

InshAllah sis, I will list the sources to support my above statment as I wrote it, not as you have misquoted me on two counts at least, always at your service!

 

Two Observations:

 

1. Your Quote : "NOT FOLLOWING " is different than My actual words " DENIAL OF A HADEETH IN THIS CATEGORY"

 

2. Your Quote "LEADS TO KUFAR is different than My actual words on this page that read : " IT CAN LEAD TO KUFR"

 

Please read the text carefully before asking a question, a good question is half the answer.

 

 

Nur

[Reality Check]

you said:

 

Denial Denial of a Hadeeth in this category is a grave sin is a grave sin and it can lead to Kufr.

 

 

Well, if denying a "Credible" Hadeeth because its used in the body of the Sharia laws is a grave sin, then not following it (because you either choose not to or flat-out deny) would be a grave sin as well. It depends on how the individual looks at it.

 

 

But my main question is actually aimed at the GRAVE SIN part of the statement---not the denial. List your sources.

 

A good answer to this question can be answered using the ultimate criterion, the Quran.

 

 

Still waiting......

[Khalaf]

I don’t mean to intervene..........but I don’t understand why ppl would argue on dis ....this is simple...what is hadith horta.....it is the sunnah of nabi scw then the same Quran says: Whoever obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah. Allah says, No, by your Lord they do not believe until they submit to your adjucation in all disputes between them, then they do not find themselves oppressed with your decisions and they completely submit (4:65).

 

 

marka he/she is not a believer if they reject the sunnah. Sh. Nur can go detail furthur inshallah with this topic: Hadith Science. Also about the scholars yes they are men and make mistakes but the many ulma say....follow me as long as I follow Allah and His Messenger....reject my sayings if I dont follow the Book and the Sunnah....thus we have obligation learn the deen.

 

ps: forinication: 100 lashes for unmarried person, stoning to death for a married person, no contridiction walaalshiis.

[Reality Check]

No one is talking about rejecting hadith or sunnah, but I am under the impression when people make statements as to watch is sin or not, they should be able to back it up with proof. Nur stated it was a grave sin and may lead to kufar. I asked where he got such information.

[Socod_badne]

This is certainly aimless exercise that I sometimes wonder why some of you even bother with it.

 

Whether rejecting Hadiiths is unpardonable omission is a question settled by hermeneutics (ie interpretations). Not empiricism or logic. If one person has an interpretation disparate from someone else, what should those of us on the sidelines appeal to as the decider? More hermeneutics? Why, yes of course. What else is there? Ergo the utter vacuity of discussions like these.

[Khalaf]

^^sxb u been dealt wit.....believe or follow as u wish......we are Muslims and we hear and we obey Allah and His messenger. Hadith is a science, part of our deen that we most follow as Quran orders us!....Sh. Nur can explain this area furthur.

 

Reality Check u said in page 1: Now you said not following sahiih hadith is a GRAVE sin and leads to Kufar. List your sources.

 

Hadith is the sunnah-sayings of the nabi no? It outlines laws, guidlines for the Muslims not found in the Quran since nabi didnt speak from his whims....verses from the Quran show we most follow the sunnah....the one who doesnt refer to Quran/sunnah is not only sining....but as the ayat says its kufarnimo....whenever their is dispute refer to the quran and the sayings of nabi scw-hadiths....Marka why is that hard to understand walaalshiis? :confused:

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

Hadith is the sunnah-sayings of the nabi no? It outlines laws, guidlines for the Muslims not found in the Quran since nabi didnt speak from his whims....verses from the Quran show we most follow the sunnah....the one who doesnt refer to Quran/sunnah is not only sining....but as the ayat says its kufarnimo....whenever their is dispute refer to the quran and the sayings of nabi scw-hadiths....Marka why is that hard to understand walaalshiis? :confused:

please list resources if you are going to mark something as a sin, or muslims as potential kufars.

 

This is a very simple concept.

[Khalaf]

Walaalshiis.......we are not on the same page. To clearly myself tho: Hadith means speech: sayings /actions of nabi scw........and Sunnah is border of this: the life/manners of the prophet scw. There is two different parts to the second source of islam: actions which are recommended for muslims to follow, and actions which are obligatory (what the prophet ordered/prohibited)........and this has been a source of legislation in Islamic shariah.

 

U said:

Now you said not following sahiih hadith is a GRAVE sin and leads to Kufar. List your sources

 

 

Well, if denying a "Credible" Hadeeth because its used in the body of the Sharia laws is a grave sin, then not following it (because you either choose not to or flat-out deny) would be a grave sin as well. It depends on how the individual looks at it.

 

 

It does depend on "how the individual looks at it", but as Muslims we were told in the Quran:

'Whatever the messenger giveth you, take it and whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain from it).' (Qur'an, 59:97)

 

Marka how is not "sin" when one does not abstain from what the prophet scw forbad found in the hadiths but not in the Quran? What sources do you need? :confused:

 

This story sums it up:

 

Hadhrat Abdullah ibn Mas`ud was once asked by an old woman, 'You curse a tattoing woman (daashimah), but nowhere in the Qur`aan has tattooing prohibited.' Hadhrat Abdullah ibn Mas`ud (Radhiallaahu Anhu) replied, 'I wish thou hadst been reading the Qur`aan. Does it not say 'whatever the messenger giveth you?'" The old woman said, 'Yes, so is written.' Hadhrat ibn Mas`ud then said, 'If so, because of this authority the Prophet of Allah has cursed the tattooing woman and has commanded us to desist from this abominable act. This command of the holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), by virtue of being an exposition of this aayah, has become a Qur1aanic command itself."

 

 

Allah Knows best, we ask for Allahs forgiveness and Guideness...correct me if wrong min fadlik.

 

ps: my bad brother Nur. .........um out wa salaamu lah.

[Pi]

^^ I actually learned a thing or two about hadiths. Thanks.

[Naden]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

but as

Muslims

we were told in the

Quran:

'Whatever the messenger giveth you, take it and whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain from it).' (Qur'an, 59:97)

If you're going to quote a verse in the Quran, its best to quote in its entirety (or at least mention the context) and explain if you can (or cut & paste, otherwise). The actual reference for the verse is 59:7.

[Khalaf]

JZK for da correction.......quote in its entirety....explain?....the verse is self-explaintory....What the nabi scw said to do: we most follow, what the nabi scw said not do: we most abstain form........khalas.

[Nur]

Reality Check sis.

 

Thanks for keeping this thread alive in my absence,( i.e Khalaf, Naden and others) I was too busy to log on SOL, after reading all the discussions, I felt that my absence was beneficial, so many valuable thoughts were indeed exchanged.

 

Now, lets get back to business, you are focused on GRAVE SIN, and you want solid proof, that sheds LIGHT ( Nur) on this claim of mine, and you prefer it to be from Quraan.

 

Ready?

 

You asked for it, here it is in a nutshel.

 

 

Allah SWT says in Surah Al Nur, verse 63.

 

Make not the calling of the Messenger (Muhammad ) among you as your calling of one another. Allah knows those of you who slip away under shelter (of some excuse without taking the permission to leave, from the Messenger ) . And let those who oppose the Messenger's (Muhammad ) commandment (i.e. his Sunnah legal ways, orders, acts of worship, statements, etc.) (among the sects) beware, lest some Fitnah (disbelief, trials, afflictions, earthquakes, killing, overpowered by a tyrant, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them

 

As you can read, not following the Sunnah is a GRAVE SIN, because it has GRAVE CONSEQUENCES, first of which is KUFR ( DISBELIEF), Only a GRAVE SIN has such a consequence.

 

 

Nur

[Reality Check]

I dont know what translation version you use, but I use the Yusuf Ali ..no mention of Sunnah.

 

"Deem not the summons of the Messenger among yourselves like the summons of one of you to another: Allah doth know those of you who slip away under the shelter of some excuse: then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, Lest some trial befall them, or a grievous Penalty be inflicted on them" (24:63)

 

 

considering that I concede with your interpretation of the "orders/summons/commandments" to be the Sunnah, and not in fact referring to the Messenger bringing the Holy Text, then using this ayaat, it says there will be a penalty (i.e. punishment).

 

No mention of the gravity of sin, or it leading a person to Kufar. In other words, if Allah did not clearly state their status, it is not up to us to say. Let me reiterate, if this is a grave sin and potentially leading to kufar, Allah would not run out of words:

 

"We have explained in detail in the Quran, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious." 18:54

 

Lets keep in mind that Allah also said:

 

"Say: “if the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its Aid” 18:109

 

"And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the Words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is exalted in power, full of wisdom" 31:27

 

 

So really, you haven't answered my question Nur. I feel that we're going in circles here.

 

Allah knows best.

[Nur]

Reality Check

 

Nope! yaa ukhtii al ghaalya,, we are not going in circles, and you are not not known to be a quitter, remember this is a discussion forum and we are all learning, including passive viewers, so be patient, patience is needed for learning.

 

Now let us map the landscape of where we agree on, and where we differ to bridge the gap:

 

1. We agree that the Sunnah is important ( we differ on the gravity of ignoring it) (Yes / NO)

 

2. We agree ( Accodring to the above verse) that anyone who does not follow the Prophet's teachings are threatened by Allah with FITNAH or PAINFUL PUNISHMENT. ( We Differ on the meaning of FITNAH ( If it includes KUFR) , and if Allah adminsisters PAINFUL Punishment ( CADAABUN ALIIM )) when a person does not commit a GRAVE SIN . ( YES / NO)

 

 

Pleas confirm that we agree on these statememts, FIRST, ( Yes or NO) , so that we can proceed in our learning journey.

 

 

Nur

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Nur:

Reality Check

 

 

1. We agree that the Sunnah is important ( we differ on the gravity of ignoring it) (Yes / NO)

 

2. We agree ( Accodring to the above verse) that anyone who does not follow the Prophet's teachings are threatened by Allah with FITNAH or PAINFUL PUNISHMENT. ( We Differ on the meaning of FITNAH ( If it includes KUFR) , and if Allah adminsisters PAINFUL Punishment ( CADAABUN ALIIM )) when a person does not commit a GRAVE SIN . ( YES / NO)

 

 

Nur

I cant answer these questions for you, Nur. All I asked you to do is back up statements you have made. If you are going to preach, yuo are going to be held accountable for all that you say. So when you make strong statements like "It's a grave sin" and "may lead to kufar", bring proof. But from what I can see, it says no where that is indeed a Grave sin and takes a person outside of the realm of Islam. The verse you used to support only speaks of punishment, and nothing else. And if Allah said that the Quran is detailed, then I believe that the verse is detailed. Only Allah can fill in the blanks.

 

 

But thanks for trying anyway.