Nation or Citizen?

[Illyria]

Which comes first?

And when does the priority change?

Can we ever trump the rights of the citizen to form a nation?

Can we acquire a model nation state without first going through the requisite process of recognising its existence in the modern state stature sense, in other words without experimenting with ethno-state first, and then city state, and finally realising a nation state?

 

It is an open field to all, but let us be serious, and see if we could familiarise ourselves with the concept of a nation state, and how modern states (successful ones) have come to be, and why the Somalis had failed in their quest - this far.

[Carafaat]

Sxb, So you see clans as a building block of a nation state?

[Taleexi]

1- citizen.

2- priority changes when 2 or more people craft a neutral customs of governance - like xeer soomaali

3- Yes/No - Soomaalidu midna uma bisla - waase lagu khasbi karaa.

[Carafaat]

Citizens come together and form strong circle of protection, clan's. The more distress and hostility exist around the circle, the stronger and more organized clans become. you call that ethno-states. But what will happen in times of peace when hostilities decreases? when the bond or circle remain the same? is protection needed in times of peace? will the circle remain strong? I dont think so, I think the bond, circle weakens and devolves if it looses its function(protection). Therefor those ethno states need to transcent in to becoming city states or regional states, as you call them.

[Illyria]

Carafaat,

I was trying to guide you through the steps societies must go through in order to realise nationhood since that is your desire. First thing first, a tribal society like Somalis must first formulate an identity of their own at the most basic level, whether that comes in the form of an ethno-state (Somaliland, Puntland and others would be good examples) or something which resembles city state, it must be recognised. Limitations of ethno-states would then surface giving way to the formation of cities or regional states transcending the ethnocentric identity, and instead taking trans-ethnic status or identify up until its inherent limitations had been recognided, which in turn gives way to the creation of a nation, the desired object, which addresses some of the challenges faced with the ethno and regional states.

 

Now, the question is, how long does the process take? Consider the Shires (tribal enclaves in the 9th century) of the present day United Kingdom before the Norman conquest - think about an English noble using the French to reign over other tribes in the Shires. Another good example would be the Greek islands before Agamemnon invaded the tribal territories of Greece forming what was later to forge one of the first modern nation state construct. If that was Europe in the 11th century and thereabouts, this is Somalia in the 21st century, which is the difficulty the rest of the world is facing as it tries to frogmarch Somalis into the 21st century.

 

The idea here is to convince you that ethno-states or clan enclaves as you like to call them are the means to the end (nation), but not the end by and of itself.

 

But the trouble is you are in a hurry, and want to get there yesterday, but unfortunately you can not mould nature as if clay in your backyard – nature must take its natural course.

 

And please read a book or two on the concept and history of modern nation state. It will help with the conversation.

 

Must dash,

 

And you pose good questions in the earlier post. I will think about those.

[The Hermet]

Interesting debate. Nation or citizen. The nation state or the individual. To answer this question you have to look at firstly from a socitial perspective or anthropolgical perapective. When u examine this you will understand why they failed and continue to fail. Somalis are nomads. They settle in regions and move from one water well to another and they associate themselves with clans because the collective clan fight for resources together against other tribes. So in context this becomes your individual because the ancient reality is also todays modern reality. So in terms of state tthis becomes your individual. The state in the nation state context should be impartial I.e neautral and should be a shared platform. from 1960 to 1991 somali republic was in the hands of a clan at the loss of others so the evenual conclusion was always goin to be choas if you remember back to the original argument about the individual. I dont believe that regional identification can somehow bring somalis together in effect what you only achieve is diversification of indentity leading to regional struggles as individuals for resources as argued before. The solutions starts with the institutions themselves. Positive distrcimination. And mass singular identity creation trough the use of state aparatus and a system of legal checks and balances that protect not only the individual but small clans as well. Digest it and ill expand on it later

[Illyria]

Good perspective.so why do you think nomad tribes elsewhere in Africa or the Vikings and the Irish, Europe's nomads, were able to settle down, but not the Somalis?

 

A statement of arguable validity, but I am not interested in it now.

"from 1960 to 1991 somali republic was in the hands of a clan at the loss of others so the evenual conclusion was always goin to be choas"

[The Hermet]

Because somalis fail to distguish or blur the state with the tribe they also fail to create a structure the put the state as a neautral overseeing outside the realm of the anthropological stuggle of the tribe. Just look at somalias weak political structure its clan formulas and the tribal struggle for executive positions within it. It doesn't exist in any other state because Somalia has not yet learnt that the problem itself lay in the actual concept of the individual or in the case of the somalis tribes. Somaliland is the closest state to taming the fundemental problem of somali.statehood and their brothers can learn much although not perfect they tamed tribal societies even after local civil wars and national civil war by bringing the tribe or in this case the individual into the political process by creating a branch of government that creates checks and balances that brings an end to the societal or individual struggle against tribes even be it sub sub clan. By Doing this they tamed what othwr somalis have failed to tame with this said they then eleveted the state to above clan I.e multi party democracy meaning if someone wants to get into power he has to fight for votes from all tribes elevating the state into outside the tribal realm because power goverance rests in pleasing all not only that by creating strong courts and commissions you create checks and balances to make sure no exlpitation of power can accure even the president can get impeached if he goes against the naional interest. Furthermore although recent they are attempting to geese national identity instead of regional or tribal which only creates problems and leads to stage one backwards so in that you can see the formation of the blueprint from your brothers and the wider somali problems solution lay in copyin it

[The Hermet]

Because somalis fail to distguish or blur the state with the tribe they also fail to create a structure the put the state as a neautral overseeing outside the realm of the anthropological stuggle of the tribe. Just look at somalias weak political structure its clan formulas and the tribal struggle for executive positions within it. It doesn't exist in any other state because Somalia has not yet learnt that the problem itself lay in the actual concept of the individual or in the case of the somalis tribes. Somaliland is the closest state to taming the fundemental problem of somali.statehood and their brothers can learn much although not perfect they tamed tribal societies even after local civil wars and national civil war by bringing the tribe or in this case the individual into the political process by creating a branch of government that creates checks and balances that brings an end to the societal or individual struggle against tribes even be it sub sub clan. By Doing this they tamed what othwr somalis have failed to tame with this said they then eleveted the state to above clan I.e multi party democracy meaning if someone wants to get into power he has to fight for votes from all tribes elevating the state into outside the tribal realm because power goverance rests in pleasing all not only that by creating strong courts and commissions you create checks and balances to make sure no exlpitation of power can accure even the president can get impeached if he goes against the naional interest. Furthermore although recent they are attempting to geese national identity instead of regional or tribal which only creates problems and leads to stage one backwards so in that you can see the formation of the blueprint from your brothers and the wider somali problems solution lay in copyin it

[Illyria]

If I am not mistaken, you are giving anecdotal examples of bureaucracy, nepotism, and cronyism all of which are symptoms of state construct, which is not working as intended, but the conversation is not quite there yet, and that is found at all levels of every state in the world.

"the tribal struggle for executive positions within it"

 

On the issue of Somaliland, like other regional states, it is still struggling with the clan issue. just look at the political parties. they are aligned along the three main clans, and so far had failed to convince other clans on the periphery to the buy into the Somaliland project.

[Carafaat]

so what is your suggestion, keep clan states for couple of centuries. dont think it will last

[Illyria]

I would have thought you would appreciate the natural flow of the progress or the value of history, but may be not. you see you cannot jump from A and hope to reach Z in a few days which is what might be eluding you. the idea is to let nature take its course, and allow people to familiarise themselves with and experiment with forms of government, and eventually through trials and tribulations come of age landing on what suits them. do not try to frogmarching them to what works for others who have done the heavy lifting at own pace and time.

 

let us leave the nation state discussion there for now as you seem not quite there yet, and may be revisit, when it is a bit clearer.

 

How about the citizen? and this is important since you are a proponent of Somaliland and think about the latest incursions in Buuhoodle and Las Anod. Proponents of Somliland want a separate country to protect themselves from oppression and a form of government imposed on them from above (Somalia), yet today they are adopting oppressive policies over peoples who do not subscribe to the Somaliland doctrine. what gives? again, it is justifiable to kill the citizen in quest of the nation? and please let us have a serious conversation.

[Carafaat]

Nonsense I oppose the secession or the international recongnition of Somaliland. And Somaliland can only work as a coherent State within Somalia if it includes all of the original founding regions or it will fail

[Illyria]

Careful,

I did not say you are a proponent of secession, but a proponent of pre-independence Somaliland nonetheless.

[Carafaat]

sxb, you dont get it. maybe should try to leave your clan thinking behind. any region or city should be governed by a administration, state not based on clan but based on shared value's, shared interest and inclusiveness rather exclusiveness. only then will all people support it and it will work, irrelevent what you or me thinks. but fighting and 27 people killed at the airport in one day, is not something one should desire but rather discuss and prevent from ever happening again. the same goes for Buhoodle.