Certain Issues

[S.O.S]

Xiinfaniin,

 

To make some sense of what I intend persuade you to accept or change your mind from, I find it necessary to stretch our collective vision until it reaches the relevant context to deliberate some valid arguments. I also intend to give you the opportunity to contribute and correct me, to deliver constructive criticism or to ask questions. At the end of this process, I hope that we learn new things about ourselves which would prove to be beneficial to all.

 

Debate that never happened

 

Gradually from the infancy to the continuously fading youth (if not abrupt) of yesterdays, to how we are at present days – in short, death waiting to happing- all culminates into the expressions and translations we give through our behaviour. It makes you wonder the following: What if we were born as adult (just like artificially produced human clones coming of the assembly lines en masse) with no past experience of childhood and puberty or adulthood with all its accompanying education/lessons in life? Along those lines is how the history of Somali nationhood played out, both in creation and in destruction.

 

Obviously we wouldn't have any sense of identity or gradual progression that enables one to shape ones distinct identity along some path of learning curve. We would not understand where we came from and thus who we really are, therefore unable to recognise and by implication fulfil our destiny. If that's true for simple individuals, what about the more complicated aggregate level that society is?

 

Allah permitting, I propose first to completely focus on the identity of our collectiveness as a society rather than as individuals. This is because, although society may be considered the sum of its subjects, in general, it's society in the context of environmental forces that produces individuals (we'll be discussing later in which conditions the opposite can occur).

 

Reer Magaal or Reer Baadiyye?

 

Allow me to spare you the time and energy: Reer Baadiyye! If we can show some grace by resisting our inborn ostentation, we can objectively explore any presented evidence either supporting one way or the other. Ones this argument is settled; our identity and the ultimate solution to all our past and current problems shall become self-evident. As will certain issues my brother Xiinfaniin is dying to engage me with. I hate to keep you waiting, but we need to agree on the subject of our disagreement (how else can we discuss solutions to problems we don't understand and for people we don't understand?).

 

Before I continue, I want to invite our brother Nur and other nomads here to have their say.

[xiinfaniin]

Sorry brother SOS! I was anticipating seeing this thread pop up in the General section. That you chose to post it here is a better strategy I suppose!

 

It’s time to go home! I will contribute insha Allah! Nur, the sage of SOL, is most welcome to chip in as well!

[Haneefah]

^ this way, you'll be spared from all the annoying nonsense of the usual trollers.

 

I for one am looking forward to reading and learning from your exchanges; I am confident that it will be a fruitful debate, Insha Allah. :cool:

[S.O.S]

Haneefah, you're most welcome to contribute and share your views with us; It would help to come to conclusion collectively.

 

The interesting thing about objective reasoning –that is taking all the facts into account- is that we don't have as much a control over it as we would hope for. It's like a train you wakeup into with pre-constructed railroads leading you from one station to another, often with no easy shortcuts. Mine is a corroded locomotive that easily can be jumped off (also an indication of the pace that I'll be moving).

 

The case for Reer Baadiyyenimo

 

Reer Baadiyye, in Arabic Badawiyy and in English Bedouin, was originally used for dessert nomads (Badawiyyin) and is derived from badaw (dessert). In Af-Soomaali, we also use badaw occasionally, but we lost it in translation. These words may henceforth be used interscangeably. Many people may think that Reer Baadiyye or Bedouin is more to do with lifestyle, culture or even a particular race in a particular region. In fact, it's a condition, a culturally psychological state of mind that came to being through centuries of conditioning.

 

The product of such mental constitution is surprisingly also positively correlated and strongly shaped by the animals they share their lives with. It was narrated that our Prophet (pbuh) said: "Pride and arrogance are characteristics of the owners of horses and camels, and those Reer Baadiyye who are busy with their camels and pay no attention to Religion; while modesty and gentleness are the characteristics of the owners of sheep." Our Prophet is not talking in theoretical sense here for he had to deal with them practically with some difficulties as we shall later see (the challenges they posed) in the Qur'an. Normal business as usual days are when the Reer Baadiyye cames to the masjid of the Prophet (pbuh) in Medina and urinates in the middle of it!

 

Sheep herders are excluded from the harshest critique and where possible distinguishing is made between them and horses and camel owners as the above Xadith indicates. He (pbuh) also said ".. sternness and mercilessness are the qualities of those who are busy with their camels and pay no attention to the Religion where the two sides of the head of Satan will appear .."

 

Any objections/additions so far?

[xiinfaniin]

^^

 

I would object it once it becomes clear where you're going with this interesting contrast

[S.O.S]

Allah (swt) made the most rigorous statements concerning the Reer Baadiyye in His noble Qur'an when He said:

 

"The Reer Baadiyye are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and more likely to be in ignorance of the limits (Allah's Commandments and His Legal Laws, etc.) which Allah has revealed to His Messenger. And Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise." (At-Tawbah 9:97)

 

We know that the Qur'an came to mankind as the best advice from our Lord (ordering all that is good and forbidding all that is evil), a healing for and all that is in our breasts (diseases of ignorance), - a guidance and a mercy for the believers- all are made clear in the Qur'an. The most interesting phrases is such verses are always found at the endings, and in the case of above verse; ".. Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise." The following ayah also portrays a similar message when Allah (swt) says:

 

"The Reer Baadiyye say: "We believe." Say: "You believe not but you only say, 'We have surrendered (in Islam),' for Faith has not yet entered your hearts. But if you obey Allah and His Messenger (pbuh), He will not decrease anything in reward for your deeds. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Al-Hujurat 49:14)

 

I'm NOT saying we are all hypocrites! Rather, all I've written thus far is mere prelude to the real objectives that this discussion hopefully should be culminating into. It's necessary to sketch the position of the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) to acquire the relevant perspective and ground ourselves with basic Islamic principles before we tackle any subject. Now we've relatiely positioned ourselves in broad lines, we can move on towards historical observations.

 

P.S. You've wisely chosen to keep cards close to your chest Xiinfaniin, I bet your patience has never been tested this badly

[xiinfaniin]

^^Not at all!

 

I just want see the gist fo the matter and your take on it. The prelude is fine and I appriciate it though!

[Fabregas]

I hope next time you go back to dulki, someody translates and reads what you said about geeljire people to the nomads. they might reach for their sticks.

 

ps.s good discussion...do carry on!

[winnie]

uhm... did you just make your little tafseer on those surahs?

in surat-ul tawbah, for example, Allah is addressing the hypocrites, in particular the people who dodged the battle of Tabuk.

that would include the ansar, the muhajireen and the bedouins.

 

the bedouins, though criticized often, were sometimes praised for their pride which would make them hate falling into error.

 

furthermore, they weren't blanketly suspected of hypocrisy, as you are suggesting.

if there were a demographic group during the prophet's time suspected of hypocrisy, it was the jews who vehemntly did not want to accept an arab as their leader, and who couldn't openly fight against the muslims without severe repercussions both financially and socially.

 

can i know what tafseer you are using?

i know its common in debates to twist evidence to fit your argument, but surely the quran holds a different status? no?

[S.O.S]

With respect to historical observations, where better to start with than with Ibn Khalduun? A man who spent a great deal of time observing and studying the north African Reer Baadiyye. To quote him:

 

".. Reer Baadiyyaha are a savage nation, fully accustomed to savagery and the things that cause it. Savagery has become their character and nature. They enjoy it, because it means freedom from authority and no subservience to leadership. Such a natural disposition is the negation and antithesis of civilization."

 

If that doesn't ring bells, read the following which we may recognize from our surroundings:

 

"Furthermore, every Reer Baadiyye is eager to be the leader. There is scarcely one among them who would cede his power to another, even to his father, his brother or the eldest member of his family."

 

Although Ibn Khalduun goes further to suggest that the Reer Baadiyye are naturally a ruinous people destroying everything, never building anything and not only in the materialistic sense, but more importantly in social and organizational structures. According to him, the influx of Reer Baadiyye can be attributed towards the decaying disintegration of major civilizations such as the Yemeni, Persian and Syrian. That's what he means when he says: "A nation dominated by the Reer Baadiyye is in a state no different from anarchy, where everybody is set against the others."

 

Before I give the wrong impression of Ibn Khaduun to those who're less familiar with this great thinker, I should implicitly state that he was on the whole quite positive (to which we'll come back later). He believed that Reer Baadiyyonimo only represented a necessary stage of life towards progression for all civilizations. Natural and gradual progression is understood here. As he puts it: "The toughness of desert life precedes the softness of sedentary life. Therefore, urbanization is found to be the goal to which Reer Baadiyye aspires. Through his own efforts, he achieves what he proposes to achieve in this respect. When he has obtained enough to be ready for the conditions and customs of luxury, he enters upon a life of ease and submits himself to the yoke of the city. This is the case with all Bedouin tribes."

 

Unfortunately, something we Somalis were never given the chance to achieve. Imagine waking up into sudden socio-cultural crash-landing in an alien system, where a group of men drinking cappuccino are making the law of the land in in some sort of European languages. How about a man shouting at those Reer Baadiyye gathered around him to become Reer Magaal by walking in pairs, smoking cigarettes and pretending to read papers? Hearsay or real, an embodiment of artificiality!

 

I have two relevant historical occurrences (16th and 20th centuries) that will be central for me to underpin my arguments. Parallel to these historical events, I'll reveal what I think are the solutions to our problems and I'll end by stating the 'certain issues' this whole exercise started with.

 

B G, many of them are onine too

[S.O.S]

Originally posted by shaken and deterred:

uhm... did you just make your little tafseer on those surahs?

in surat-ul tawbah, for example, Allah is addressing the hypocrites, in particular the people who dodged the battle of Tabuk.

that would include the ansar, the muhajireen and the bedouins.

 

the bedouins, though criticized often, were sometimes praised for their pride which would make them hate falling into error.

 

furthermore, they weren't blanketly suspected of hypocrisy, as you are suggesting.

if there were a demographic group during the prophet's time suspected of hypocrisy, it was the jews who vehemntly did not want to accept an arab as their leader, and who couldn't openly fight against the muslims without severe repercussions both financially and socially.

 

can i know what tafseer you are using?

i know its common in debates to twist evidence to fit your argument, but surely the quran holds a different status? no?

Shaken and deterred,

 

If you think that I translated aayah 97 in at-Tawbah wrongly, please don't hesitate to enlighten us by giving the real meaning and where you suspect that I've twisted to fit my argument.

[winnie]

well the ayat in surat ul tawbah uses the word, al-3rabiy shadd-du, not bedouins.

 

that includes arab city dwellers as well as country folk cause they all live in the desert.

i think your use of Bedouins is a bit of a stretch, because it makes it seem as though Allah were speaking to that particular group instead of Arabs in general as the actual wording, and the context of the ayat's revelation, suggests.

 

same thing for surat-ul hujurat.

it was revealed when there was an increase in fighting amongst the muslims, the majority of whom were arabs but of different tribes and origins.

Allah (and He knows best) isnt singling out the bedouins in either surats, he is admonshing the ansaar, muhajireen, and the bedouins altogether.

[winnie]

btw, i think i see where your argument is going, and I, at the moment have no objections, however, given the very proof you have cited has a different meaning, a different conclusion can be garnered.

 

but Ill let xinn join you first.

[S.O.S]

Brother shaken .., you said:

 

well the ayat in surat ul tawbah uses the word, al-3rabiy shadd-du, not bedouins.

Allah revealed the Qur'an in Arabic so it would make sense to uses the word al acraabu rather than the English word Bedouin.

 

that includes arab city dwellers as well as country folk cause they all live in the desert.

Using your logic, are you implying that the aayah should be translated as "The Arabs are worst in disbelief and hypocrisy .."?

 

i think your use of Bedouins is a bit of a stretch, because it makes it seem as though Allah were speaking to that particular group instead of Arabs in general as the actual wording, and the context of the ayat's revelation, suggests.

If Allah is speaking of Arabs in general, then explain to us why in the preceding and immediately following aayaat each group (Bedouins, Muhajiruun/Ansaar and the hypocrites of Medina) are addressed separately?

 

same thing for surat-ul hujurat.

it was revealed when there was an increase in fighting amongst the muslims, the majority of whom were arabs but of different tribes and origins.

Allah (and He knows best) isnt singling out the bedouins in either surats, he is admonshing the ansaar, muhajireen, and the bedouins altogether.

Get your facts straight before you accuse anyone of twisting the meaning of the Qur'an: You might take that lightly, but I would advice you to take it back. You clearly don't fully comprehend what you're trying to say here.

[winnie]

you know what, I will take it back.

I apologize.

I was wrong.