Even the Brits are not certain of Somaliland's Attendance

[Carafaat]

Oodweyneh, I know that is how most folks think about it for now atleasy. But wait till you have some months of polarizing debate's in the run up to elections, new political landscabe(guess who the architect is ) and some political disenfranchised and disgruntled sub-clans(yours, mine and every else's subclan) with no political cohesion. And then we will see if people are still so toxicated with the Land. They will cheer and welcome any such deal as the salvation and the ring that will hold us together, as your insurance policy, as life saving coat as Jamac Qaalib was welcomed a the aiport, the long lost son of the land.

 

You seem to overrate Somali's logical thinking as well as their principals. Somali's are as stable as the Indian tropical moeson wind and as principal, turning each season. What has brought us to Muqdisho in the first place, or brought us in all hasty the Somaliland, will bring us away out of the deadlock.

[Mintid Farayar]

Carafaat;780775 wrote:

Abti, if this or somethng looking like this beast of a deal wont come out of the meeting and Siilanto will never utter the words recongnition, I will silence on Confederation talk forever and Minti Farayare ayaan ku daba tukaniyaaa.

 

Waryaahe Carafaat,

Now that you’ve painted me into a corner as representing the hardline wing of Somaliland sentiment, let me first tell you that you’re a crafty proponent for the Somaliweyn concept/unification with Somalia. Your thoughts are idealistic but highly unrealistic given the current conditions of Somalia. What benefits has engagement with Somalia brought any actor in the region or the wider world in the last 20 years? The landscape is littered with failed projects from every corner for Somalia’s restitution (from the Americans, UN, Djiboutians, Ethiopians, Ugandans, Kenyans, etc.,). The local psychology of Somalia is still not ready for a normalized, governed society. So what could Somaliland (with even more limited resources than the previous actors) achieve/gain through engagement? The answer is clear to any objective mind that’s viewing things from the perspective of gains for Somaliland.

 

What you fail to realize is that Somaliland, unlike the rest of the former Somalia, is governed by the local currents within the resident society, not by refugee elites calling the shots and parachuting in for international conferences. The Somaliland diaspora plays the critical role of investment capital but is largely kept as spectators in the management and daily running of the ship. Siilaanyo and all other Somaliland politicians on the ground have to deal daily with the local Somalilander and his/her wishes. That’s who they owe their power and prestige to. While in the rest of the former Somalia, leaders owe most of their power to either an empowered diaspora or a foreign state ‘godfather’. While those foreign powers do have a great deal of influence in Somaliland, when it comes to a clash between the outside interests and the local interests, the Somaliland politician has no choice but to choose the local wishes since his/her power is directly dependent on the local support(hence the refusal to attend the Congressional Hearing).

 

Siilanyo as an opposition party saw an easy goal to burnish his international relations credentials by meeting with Congressman Payne (who was holding a Somalia conference) but now that he occupies the governing seat, the equation is drastically different. Within each nation, there’s a fundamental belief that all political actors must pay homage to in order to have a chance at power. In the U.S., for example, it’s the concept of ‘American exceptionalism’ which is taught to every secondary student within the American school system, in Saudi Arabia it’s the ‘indivisibility of Islam and the State’. In Somaliland’s case, it’s the independence of Somaliland vis-à-vis a united Somali Republic. You mentioned the mushrooming political parties-to-be currently jockeying for position within Somaliland for the upcoming parliamentary elections. Yet you fail to observe that each one tries to outdo the other in their Somaliland/gooni-isu-taag political platforms. Anything else would be political suicide. Your argument while idealistic, shows a lack of awareness of the situation on the ground within Somaliland. Rather it shows familiarity with the removed ‘makhaayad’ discussions that take place among the various diaspora Somali communities.

[NASSIR]

That is how I would do it. This conservative risk averse tendencies of Somaliland is grandmother politics, and grandmother's. Will get you nowhere except for the shop around the corner.

 

Well said Carafaat. Puntland is doing it what SL has failed to do.

[The Hermet]

Somalia;780643 wrote:

As if they would have the balls to boycott anything let alone something set up by their colonial masters.

ill hold you to this....ok...remember it....old boy...we all know our balls are alot bigger then yours..considering your weakness at present and in the past....

 

I assure you Somaliland will not sit at the same table as any Somali government other then one that has total control of its territory and has been democratically elected...of which we both know will never happen...and as the conference is about peace and stability in somalia it doesnt concern us..we have peace and stability...

[The Hermet]

NASSIR;780914 wrote:

Well said Carafaat. Puntland is doing it what SL has failed to do.

as for bax bax land doing what somaliland has failed to do...of which im assuming you mean attempt build peace in Somalia...hahaha

 

as we stated in 1991 we are a seperate state...with or without recognition...Somalia does not concern us politically...i know you need our help but in the interest of the self...what do i get out of it....nothing...hahaha...

 

so why should i care??

[Carafaat]

Mintid,

 

Indeed I have presented you as my political opponent. Not because I regard you as a hardliner, but as a 'Islanderr' who 's world horizon doesnt seem to pass Taleex to the east and Baligubadle to the south. See this places as the last frontier, not realzing what happens in Garowe affects Taleex and what happens in Jigjiga effects Baligubadle. Somaliland is not an Island, its a land governed by an administration called the Goverment of Somaliland which aspires to be recongnized internationally as a souvereign country. I regard Somaliland already souvereign domesticly. Irrelevant if its recongnized or not Somaliland is not Island, its interlinked with its neighbours and sourranding, enviroment. You say that everything what happens outside in Somaliland is not our business I say it is our business. When Saudi Arabia banned our livestock with support from Djibouti and TNG, it affected our most vulnerable people living nomadic life. When Piracy is conducted and condened in Somalia, it affects the supply lines of our import and export(livestock) and raising the price for insurance, risk and transportation cost. Increasing food prices.

When Somali region of Ethiopia's goverment and police play hide and seek in the web of ONLF, nomads. It affects Wojale, Baligubadle, Ina Guuxa, etc. When Al Shabaab gained power in Somalia it resulted in many bomb attacks, assasinations, and hundreds of arrested Al Shabaab terrorist mainly from the Somaliland clans, high security alert, this was only in 2009.

When AUN Aidiid and Ali Mahdi were battling eachiother in Moqadishu, it affected even the internal conflict of Somaliland.

When a villager in Galgala(Bari) is fighting Puntland security forces in the Bari Mountains, it affects people up to Erigavo.

When a clan holds a meeting in border town called Taleex, it affects the surrounding clans.

 

International recongnition wont bring any solutions nor make Somaliland an Island. It wont bring stabillity nor stronger institutions without being iin cohesion with surrounding. Otherwise NFD, Djibouti and Somali region would be in much better stage, if int recongnition or borders create security and safety from surrounding. You stay Somalia is hopeless , then I can safely say that this means nothing good for Somaliland. Just as Somaliland's situation will affect Somali region and. Vica versa.

 

What does this all have to do with Londen Conference?

 

The Londen Conference will bring stakeholders of Somalia together to discuss a way forward for the governance of Somalia. Irrelevent if Somaliland goverment participates or not. The situation there on the ground will and has always affected Somaliland. Now has Somaliland the choice to make sure the project doesnt fail this time, by constructivly contributing.

And if Somaliland's case of int recongnition is indeed in the interest of the wider region and geopolitical enviroment, then it can present its case

 

Somaliland's attence of any meeting with Somalia's actors can only positivly influence the region and Somaliland. Such a meeting would not negativly affect my and your tuulo in Somaliland. Except for the mood of some folks, who wont immediatly smile and because they expected something else. But the mood of our people is as fluid as the red sea and will soon change, if we can come with something better or atleast with the same as the current status quo of Somaliland.

I belief we can only win, if we preserve the good and strive for something much better on top.

 

Now can you explain in which way attendence of this meeting or a deal with Somalia negativly influence Somaliland and my folks in tuulo's and myi?

[Mintid Farayar]

Carafaat,

 

Well put, but highly unrealistic. You view my position as isolationist but you don’t grasp the end game. I’ll leave the end game aside for now. As for Somalia and Somaliland’s non-involvement – no one, let alone Somaliland can impose peace and governance on Somalia. Why not you might ask? Because the players within Somalia are not interested in peace. Each interest group is only interested in jockeying for a superior vantage point in order to eventually destroy the other groups – a zero sum mentality inherited from the former clan-based military dictatorship. That’s the ideological blueprint that exists in the minds of the elites of Somalia.

 

You wax on about the effects that neighboring territories have on other neighboring territories – what’s so unique about that? If there’s instability in Uganda, it spills over to Kenya, Sudan, Rwanda, and Congo. Likewise, everywhere else in the world. However, it doesn’t have to mean one has to share a political system with the neighboring territory, especially if the politics of the neighbor have a history of being toxic. The toxicity will corrupt you day by day from the inside. However, you can have engagement with the neighbor as is the case today – even with all the posturing, trade continues between Puntland and Somaliland.

 

You mentioned the examples of Buubaa, Jama Yara, etc. What do they have to show for their troubles after 21 years? One by one, they come back to their homeland, limping, to retire their last years in their home city(Sifir, Jama Ghalib, etc.,). Ask them if the utopia they were seeking in a Greater Somalia ever got a step closer. I doubt it. I’ll set Buubaa aside and take Jama Yare as an example. Jama Ghalib has had a lifelong reputation for impeccable professionalism and probity. Yet at the end, he became a politician. And a politician, my friend, needs a people to lead in order to be a player/be effective in his goals. Well, his people didn’t wish to follow his path and the rest was history. Fifteen years wasted just like that in the wilderness. When Somaliland was declared, Jama Ghalib was one of the most influential MPs in the legislature of Somaliland. He had influence and great support. Then some internal issues arose(that’s for another day) and he left the playing field for Mogadishu. From that point on it was downhill. Have you heard of any of the leaders down South saying let’s consult with Jama Yare on this important issue? No, he was relegated to the backbench, writing critical articles about Somaliland from exile. Look at the wasted talent for 15 years.

 

Carafaat, it’s not what you and I want that matters. Somaliland, unlike its neighbors, has an empowered populace that changes leadership as soon as the leadership reaches its expiration date. If they could do that to the powerful SNM in the early ‘90s (the men who liberated the country), they could do it to anybody who doesn’t tow the line. Hence, my point about Siilaanyo being a politician first and foremost. He will feel the temperature within Somaliland, compare the pros and cons of going to the Conference, and then make his decision. Lastly, your comments about the people are highly unfair. Somalilanders have been the only constant in the Somali peninsula for the last 21 years. They’ve believed, through thick and thin, in the independence and separation of Somaliland. The politicians could have sold them out a long time ago for the right price, but the population refused to budge. I, unlike you, put my trust in the average Jama/Xaliimo knowing what’s good for him/her. And they’ve been loud and clear on where they stand on that issue.

 

As for my own personal opinion regarding the Conference, I’m split. There’s a danger in stooping to the level of sitting with the pseudo-administrations of the South (further confusing an ill-informed international community that equates all things Somali with terrorism and piracy) but on the other hand, the British envoy in Hargeisa had a few, very encouraging comments during his press conference in Somaliland. But like they say, the proof is in the pudding. And if Somaliland does go, it has to make sure it has its diplomatic cards in top form. So with the limited information I currently have about the Conference, it’s difficult to choose between the options.

[Carafaat]

Mintis, please see the thread about Common public goods. I am curious on your perspective.

Because that is actually my starting point that we have common goods with our neighbours and we should think about governing of these common public goods.

[Taleexi]

The Hermet;781287 wrote:

as for bax bax land doing what somaliland has failed to do...of which im assuming you mean attempt build peace in Somalia...hahaha

 

as we stated in 1991 we are a seperate state...with or without recognition...Somalia does not concern us politically...i know you need our help but in the interest of the self...what do i get out of it....nothing...hahaha...

 

so why should i care??

 

Proclaiming on SOL that you are a separate state doesn't hold water. Like it or not we are all Somalis in the eyes of the international community. And UN conventions and covenants with regards to family of nations. "SL" is loosing opportunities of which she could enhance its bargaining power.

[Carafaat]

Taleexi, there will be a deal between Somaliland and Somalia's actors facilitated by the int community. And many from SL, SSC and Somalia wont like this deal. But it will be for the common good, we need to remember that.

[Taleexi]

Federal government I'm for it up until our trust is restored. Waxaad u egtahay secessionist wax og, waxna ogol.

[Mintid Farayar]

Mintid Farayar;781532 wrote:

As for my own personal opinion regarding the Conference, I’m split. There’s a danger in stooping to the level of sitting with the pseudo-administrations of the South (further confusing an ill-informed international community that equates all things Somali with terrorism and piracy) but on the other hand, the British envoy in Hargeisa had a few, very encouraging comments during his press conference in Somaliland. But like they say, the proof is in the pudding. And if Somaliland does go, it has to make sure it has its diplomatic cards in top form. So with the limited information I currently have about the Conference, it’s difficult to choose between the options.

 

Here are some excerpts from the British envoy's visit to Hargeisa:

 

 

 

 

UK envoy briefs Somaliland on objectives of London conference

1035 words

27 January 2012

11:09 AM

BBC Monitoring Africa

BBCAP

BBC Monitoring - All

English

© 2012 The British Broadcasting Corporation. All Rights Reserved. No material may be reproduced except with the express permission of The British Broadcasting Corporation.

 

 

 

[Excerpts of press conference by Chris Allen, Deputy Head of Mission, UK Embassy in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia; date not given: UK Deputy Ambassador To Ethiopia Arrives Somaliland To Explain the Objectives of the London Conference on Somalia]

 

 

The United Kingdom's deputy ambassador, Chris Allan, visited Somaliland earlier this week. The main purpose of the visit was to deliver a personal invitation to Somaliland's president Ahmed Sillanyo to attend the upcoming London conference which is ostensibly on Somalia but whose agenda includes anti-terrorism, piracy, and the economic development of Somaliland and Somalia.

The invitation puts Somaliland in a sort of quandary, for on the one hand, Somaliland's government does not want to rebuff the United Kingdom which is a historic friend of Somaliland, but on the other hand, Somaliland's government does not want to be seen as having compromised Somaliland's quest for independence which is an existential issue in Somaliland.

 

Excerpts from the Press Conference Given in Hargeysa by Chris Allen Deputy Head Of Mission, UK Embassy In Addis Ababa, on Wednesday:

 

"It is quite a pleasure to speak today to a number of Somalilanders about the London conference on Somalia. I thought it might be useful to set out the main agenda for that conference because I fear there is some misconceptions about its objectives. The conference is addressing a wide range of issues and its agenda includes first and foremost security issues affecting the whole of this region, issue like terrorism, piracy and regional security. It also addresses the issue of development and economic opportunities for the region including donors discussing aid and development budgets for Somalia and for Somaliland. The conference will address the political situation in Somalia and the issue of international coordination on Somalia as well.

It is not as some might have feared in anyway addressing the unification of Somalia.

The United Kingdom is extremely keen to see a strong presence by Somaliland at this event. It will be very odd I think if, given our close friendship with Somaliland and our shared history, the UK was to host an event on this region and for Somaliland not to be there and presenting its views. So my Prime Minister and my Foreign Secretary were very keen that I explain this to President Sillanyo this morning and to the wider Somaliland community and they are personally keen that President Sillanyo heads the Somaliland delegation to this event in London.

My Prime Minister will be inviting president Sillanyo directly by writing to him shortly and my Foreign Secretary is likely to pick up the telephone directly to president Sillanyo to explain a little bit more about what we hope to achieve through this event. And because of the depth of the agenda, we feel that Somaliland has a great deal to gain by being there as the issues of development, anti-piracy and counter-terrorism deem important for Somaliland's future. Not only that. We in the international community have long said that the best way for Somaliland to achieve its ambitions is through engagement with the international community and there will no be better opportunity perhaps in our generation for Somaliland's president to present his case and ambitions for the future of Somaliland to a very very senior meeting.

This conference will see attendance by some 40 heads of state, or in a few cases their foreign ministers representing them. People like Ethiopia's prime minister Meles Zinawi, president Sarkozi of France are likely to attend and many many more. Not to mention UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon and the heads of other influential international organizations.

It is necessary to underline again 2 points. This is not a meeting of the normal sort of or rather parochial debates about the future of some institutions in southern Somalia.

This is a much bigger event which will attract a very high profile attendance. It will address issues of significance to Somaliland's future.

And finally it's worth admitting that we in the international community will appreciate Somaliland's attendance of this event because after all Somaliland has a great deal to demonstrate to the region in terms of its own achievements; building up from the bottom up of peace, democracy, stability and development by Somalis. And that is an example that we hope can be learned from by your neighbours and the rest of the region.

That is what I have to say by words of introduction.

 

Q: Somalilanders are worried that participation in the London conference might hurt their long-held self-respect, integrity, stability and aspirations as a country. How you would allay such fears?

 

A: What I can say is that we understand very well sensitivities surrounding Somaliland's attendance and indeed the nature of presentation of Somaliland's attendance in an event like this. We will not put the delegation of Somaliland's president in a position which will compromise those sensitivities. We have already discussed in some detail with the Somaliland government quite how we would arrange the format of the conference to ensure a neutrality on these sensitivities as we are as I said pretty conscious of the sensitivity of this issue within Somaliland politically.

I very much hope that there will be a consensus politically in favour of attendance because I genuinely believe that it's in Somaliland's own interest to take this opportunity to express its views to the international community including those issues on the agenda and a its own aspiration.

 

Q: Has President Sillanyo agreed to Somaliland's participation or is he still weighing his options depending on the protocol and status that Somaliland will be accorded for attending?

 

A: I think his foreign minister made it clear that president Sillanyo has yet to take a decision on attendance. I discussed the subject with him this morning and I'm sure he will be taking forward the discussions of his attendance with other key stakeholders within Somaliland.

 

The British Broadcasting Corporation

[AfricaOwn]

^^ Good info, Thanks

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Madaxweyne Siilaanyo Oo Ka Walaacsan Ka Qaybgalka Shirka Magaalada London Lagu Qabanayo Iyo Golaha Xukuumada Oo Ku Kala Aragti Duwan.

 

Hargeysa (Ramaas) Jan, 29, 2012- Madaxweynaha Somaliland Axmed Maxamed Siilaanyo, ayaa la sheegay in uu ka cagjiidayo ka qaybgalka shirka 23-ka bisha Febuary ee sannadkan kooxaha Soomaalida loogu qabanayo Magaalada London ee dalka Ingiriiska, isaga suulagay kaalinta Somaliland shirka ku yeelnayso.

 

Sida ay sheegayaan warar lagu kalsoon yahay oo shabakeda wararka ee Ramaasnews ka heshay ilo ku dhaw Madaxtooyada, waxa uu Madaxweynuhu isku dayayaa in uu maalmaha soo socda ku dhawaaqo go’aanka xukuumadiisa ee ka qaybgalka shirka London, iyada oo ay u badan tahay in uu ka soo horjeedsan doono, maadaama kulamo talo Qaran oo uu la yeeshay masuuliyiin ka tirsan maamulkiisa isla afgartay in aan lagu deg-degin soo jeedinta beesha caalamka ee shirkaas.

 

Waxa kale oo aan sababo aan la garanayn loo baajiyay shirar ay isugu iman lahaayeen Madaxweynaha, shir-guddoonada labada gole iyo madaxda axsaabta Qaranka todddobaadkan , ka dib markii sida la sheegay dawlada ka war heshay in ajandaha shirku dibeda u soo baxay, kaasoo qaadici lahaayeen dhinacyada kale oo u arka mid lagu wiiqayo Qaranimada Somaliland, waxaana uu Mr Siilaanyo ku hawlan yahay uu sidii jawaab waaqiciya u gaadhsiin lahaa wadanka Ingiriiska oo martigelinaya shirka lagaga hadlayo aayaha dambe ee maamul u samayn Soomaaliya.

 

Dawladaha Ingiriiska iyo Maraykanka oo Somaliland caadis ku saarayay Madaxweynaha Siilaanyo in uu ka qaybgalo shirka Magaalada London, ayaa xoojinaya qorshaha abaabulka shirka, waxaana ay wakhtigan isticmaalayaan qalabka warbaabinta dalalkooda oo faafinaya fariintooda, iyada oo maamlmihii u dambeeyay ay idaacada B.B.C-da qaybta la hadasho dibedaha ee la yidhaadh World Service ay si toos ah u tabinaysay aragtida shacabka reer Somaliland ka qabaan isu imaatinka London.

 

Dhanka kale golaha wasiirada xukuumada, ayaa aragti kala duwan ka qaba shirka, iyada oo ay qaarkooda Madaxweynaha ku dhiirigelinayaan in uu dhakhso u cadeeyo mawqifkiisa, kuwaasoo ku doodaya in uu haddii uu qaato go’aan qeexan oo diidmo ah ay xukuumadu go’adoon siyaasadeed oo caalamiya geli doonto, halka kuwa kalena ay qabaan in haddii xukuumadu ay aqbasho shirka London in ay waayi doonto kalsoonida dadweynaha oo hoos u sii dhacaysay muddooyinkan dambe.

 

Laakiin waxa la dhawrayo ayaa ah tallaabada uu qaadi doono Madaxweynaha Somaliland oo xilligan ku jira jahawareerkii siyaasadeed ee ugu cuslaa ilaa intii uu talada dalka qabtay badhtamihii sannadkii 2010-kii, waxaana uu xaalkiisu noqday laba daran mid dooro.

[Carafaat]

Taleexi;781714 wrote:

Federal government I'm for it up until our trust is restored. Waxaad u egtahay secessionist wax og, waxna ogol.

Taleexi, it doesnt matter what I personally prefer. Most important is what is interest of our people. And then its quite logic one needs to compromise to make steds forward.

 

Second, I am not a secessionist but born and raised in Muqdisho. And from a 'koonfurion' perspective, I would say that its time SL, SSC, Maakhir, Awdal,Puntland communities take some responsibility for the whole of Somalia. People from Southern Somalia need stability and time to rebuild trust, governance and dialogue after so many foriegn interventions(Amisom, unosom, ethiopia, kenia, al shabaab, etc). The south had to much focus from the int community, would be good if focus is shifted to north. But for that waqoyie communities need to stop bickering and use the momentum.