Quran challenges Atheists!

[burahadeer]

QUOTE...'''I have a pen someone in my desk and I still believe I have the pen. I don't see it but I have faith the pen is in my desk. This isn't contradictory. I just have to look for it harder and find it. Simplistic but you got the point''''

 

 

not the same, you know you had the pen,say you bought it & know the color & know last you had it on your table,you saw it,but you neva saw faith neither God .You just accepted religion cos of tradition & environment.If your family were atheist you be same...simple.

 

QUOTE...[^One could also argue the vise verse? People that deny or fail to recognize God and faith do so blindly?? It could go both ways so no contradiction.]

 

 

why people that deny God & faith do so blindly? I'm already blind about cos I have neva seen God or faith & so nor any otha human being(I'm closer to truth than you here). Just stay with your earlier version of "just faith" that closer to your reasoning.

[N.O.R.F]

They still don't get it........

[Mario B]

Garnaqsi;788041 wrote:

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts.

This is a fancy way of saying I believe in zero gods, it's a statement designed to look like profundity but it besmich the one professing faith.

[wyre]

Buuryo qab baa isugu yimid meeshan

[Garnaqsi]

Mario B;817954 wrote:

This is a fancy way of saying I believe in zero gods, it's a statement designed to look like profundity but it besmich the one professing faith.

Believing in 'zero gods' amounts to having faith in no more nor less than having 'zero money' amounts to having money.

[Mario B]

Garnaqsi;818760 wrote:

Believing in 'zero gods' amounts to having faith in no more nor less than having 'zero money' amounts to having money.

Lol, words! ...It's only words and words are all I have..

[Garnaqsi]

Mario B;818769 wrote:

Lol, words!

...It's only words and words are all I have..

:mad: --- --- --- .

[N.O.R.F]

^can we do away with quotes from others and concentrate on the topic ie the verses given by Maadeey? Do you disagree with his explainations? If so, why? etc etc

[AYOUB]

Edit, wrong thread.

 

But I still see no one has bothered to answer the simple questions posted by the Noble Qur'an. Biz as usual.

Who is the creator?

 

Manar As-Sabeel Issue 7, p.6 Rajab 1413 H. - January 1993

 

Dr. Jaafar Shiekh Idris

 

Can It Be Matter?

 

*** A very popular question among atheists is, ‘Granted that the existence of temporal things necessitates the existence of an eternal cause, why should that cause be the God of religion? Why can’t matter be eternal and be therefore in no need of an eternal creator?’ I shall argue, on an Islamic basis but at the same time also on a rational basis, that the attribute of eternity entails other attributes, which matter does not and cannot have, and cannot, in view of this, play the role of the original and ultimate cause of temporal things. Muslim theologians say that eternity of existence logically implies everlastingness. This is true because, if something is eternal then it does not depend for its existence on anything outside itself. If this is so then it can never pass away, because only those things pass away that lose some of the external conditions on which they depend for their existence. If the ultimate cause of temporal things is eternal and everlasting, it must of necessity be self-sufficient, qayyoom and ghanee.

 

*** Can there be more than one such creator? The Quran tells us that this is impossible;

“God never had a child, nor have there been any gods beside him. [Had there been any], each of them would have appropriated to himself what he created, and some would have overcome others.”1

 

*** This Quranic argument was paraphrased by some Muslims theologians in a way somewhat like the following: The assumption that there are gods beside the one true God leads to false consequences and must therefore be false. If there is more than one god, then (a) if every detail of everything in the world was the result of the action of one of the gods, it cannot at the same time be the result of the action of another god. But if (b) some things in the world were created by some gods, and others by other gods, then each god would rule independently over what he created, which means that nothing in his world can even in principle, be influenced by anything outside it. But this contradicts the observed unity and interdependence of the world. And if that is impossible, then © some gods will overcome others, but if that happens then the ones who are vanquished cannot be true gods. There can, therefore, be no more than one creator.

 

*** How does this creator create? Since He is self-sufficient, He cannot be said to depend on anything outside Himself in any actions, and cannot therefore be said to produce His effects the way natural causes do. But if He is not a natural cause, He must be a volitional agent. And since intention implies knowledge, and knowledge and intention imply life, he must be a living being. Since He is an eternal and everlasting being, all His attributes must reflect this quality; thus He must be not only knowing, but all-knowing, not only powerful, but all-powerful, etc.

 

*** Since no matter in any form can answer to these attributes, and since all these attributes are implied by the two attributes of eternity and everlastingness, no form of matter can be either eternal or everlasting, and thus no matter of any form can play the role of that ultimate cause. This much of the attributes that an eternal and everlasting creator must have is enough, I suppose, to show that it cannot be matter.

 

*** But this conclusion can be further confirmed by what modern science tells us about the nature of matter.

 

Why Should He Be The God Of Islam?

 

*** Some might say, ‘Granted that this god is a personal and living God, and that He has the attributes which you mentioned, why should He be the God of Islam and not, say the Christian or Jewish God?’ The God of Islam is the God of all true prophets of God from Adam down to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. But it is a basic claim of the religion with which Muhammad came that previous religions (including Christianity and Judaism) have not been kept in their pristine form which those prophets advocated, but have been tampered with and distorted. The only religion whose book has taken upon itself to be preserved from any such distortions is the religion of the last of God’s prophets, namely Muhammad (peace be upon him). This is not to say that everything in those religions is false or bad. No! There is much in them that is good and true; it is only those elements in them that contradict Islam which must be false or bad. But even if they were to be purged of everything that is not in consonance with Islam, they would still be less perfect than Islam is, especially in their conceptions of God, therefore unsuitable for being universal religions.

 

*** Having said this, let me give one example of a non-Islamic religious belief which the Quran considers to be a stupendous blasphemy against God, namely that He has children. At the time of the Prophet, some Arabs believed that the angels were the daughters of God, while some Christians believed that Jesus was the son of God, and some Jews believed that Ezra was the son of God. Just as the Quran gave arguments for the impossibility of there being any gods besides the one true God, it also gave elaborate arguments to show the impossibility of Him having a child, whether male or female. If the Creator is one and self-sufficient, then He is also unique, ahad, “Nothing is like Him.”2 But if so then, “He neither begets nor is He begotten.”3 “How can He have a child if He has no consort, and if He created everything?”4 The Quran is here saying that the claim that God has children contradicts the facts (acknowledged by those who make this claim) that He is the Creator of everything, that He is self-sufficient, and that He has no spouse. Now if He is the creator of everything, this necessarily includes the one who is claimed to be His child. But if this is created by Him, it cannot be His child; it has to be one of His creations. One does not create one’s child; one begets it. If it is insisted that the child is actually begotten and not created by God, this will entail the following false consequences:

 

The begotten child must be of the same nature as its father, in which case God will not be unique or one.

God will not be the creator of everything.

God will have to have a spouse, who must of course be of the same nature as He is, otherwise they cannot beget anything.

But in that case the number of beings who are of the same nature as God will be raised to three.

If the child is begotten then it cannot be eternal, i.e. it cannot be of the same nature as the father.

It must therefore be temporal; but in that case it has to have a creator. But if the God who is its father cannot at the same time be its creator, then there must be its creator, then there must be another creator besides that God the father; but in that case, this other creator will be the one true creator because it was through his power that the first one was able to beget its son. This will raise the number of gods to four.

*** No wonder than that the Quran said about those who claimed that Allah has a child,

“You have indeed come with something most monstrous, of which the skies almost burst, the earth split asunder, and the mountains fall down in utter ruin. All this because of their attributing a child to Allah."

 

http://www.jaafaridris.com/English/Articles/creator.htm

 

[Raamsade]

^That has to be the most pathetic Islamic apologetics screed I've ever read. And I've read a lot of Islamic apologetics. There can't be multiple creators because Allah said so in the Quran? Now, what kind of perverted logic is that? If you guys can't see the absurdity of using the Quran to prove the Quran, then we can't have much of debate.

 

I'm afraid this boils down to intelligence. Some of you lack the intellectual wherewithal to see the folly of citing the Quran to prove Allah/Islam. I even provided the analogy of Honda's CEO claiming Hodan is the best car because he said so. Would you take his word for it or ask for objective evidence. Lets consider another analogy. Microsoft claims Windows is the best operating system because Bill Gates said so. Would you agree with them or ask for evidence? Of course you'd ask for evidence. Ditto with Islam. You can't demonstrate the existence of Allah or the prophethood of Mohammed by citing Allah's supposed words in the Quran. You need to cite some independent evidence corroborating Allah's claims in the Quran.

 

But lets not ascribe to suprior intelligence to Atheists by dint of their atheism because it doesn't really take much of an intelligence to reject organized religions. I was only 10 when I first spotted many of the inherent contradictions in Islam. One day I asked my dugsi teacher if Allah could read our every thoughts and could see what we were always doing even if we made efforts to conceal ourselves like hiding under a bed or something along those lines. He said yes, Allah is all-knowing. But then a little later he went on to expound on the spy angels Allah perched on our shoulders to record our deeds. I remember asking myself: why would Allah who can hear and see everything we do need spy angels for? Of course this kind of glaring contradiction passes by most Muslims like water passes under duck's derriere.

 

This got me thinking maybe Allah puts spy angels on the shoulders of his creation as a punishment. Imagine the delimma of the angels entrusted to spy on the likes of Maadeeys of this world. They'd probably be bored to death. Others will form unions taking to the picket lines to protest for better job postings.

 

N.O.R.F;819746 wrote:

^can we do away with quotes from others and concentrate on the topic ie the verses given by Maadeey? Do you disagree with his explainations? If so, why? etc etc

Why would anyone "concentrate" on verses from the Quran? There is nothing special about the Quran. It is just a book purportedly from Allah although it looks like a book by mortal men to any objective observer. I lost track of the verses posted but if you could YOUR favourite 2 or 3 I'll happily respond to them.

[AYOUB]

Raamsade;819877 wrote:

But lets not ascribe to suprior intelligence to Atheists by dint of their atheism because it doesn't really take much of an intelligence to reject organized religions. I was only 10 when I first spotted many of the inherent contradictions in Islam. One day I asked my dugsi teacher if Allah could read our every thoughts and could see what we were always doing even if we made efforts to conceal ourselves like hiding under a bed or something along those lines. He said yes, Allah is all-knowing. But then a little later he went on to expound on the spy angels Allah perched on our shoulders to record our deeds. I remember asking myself: why would Allah who can hear and see everything we do need spy angels for?

Everytime so-called Atheists say what they actually believe about islam, all I see is how they misguided they are. Angels and prophets are servants and messengers of Allah. Different angels perform different duties. I'm no scholar so I'll give a layman explaination of the two angels you have issues with.

 

There are certain things "not fitting the Majesty of the The Most Gracious" ie having begotten children. On the day of reckoning the people The Almighty is pleased with will receive the record of what the angels wrote on their right hand while others will receive it on their left. This is part of the process Allah - The Just and The Wise - has promised. Allah will not even speak to certain kind of sinners so the angel's record is there for very logical reason in my opinion. There is a lot more to it and my advice for you to study Islam with open mind from someone with sound knowledge of it and make up your mind. May Allah show you guidance.

[Maaddeey]

^^ Masha Allah, thats very good explanation, I am going to add that people will deny every thing bad they have done in this world hence the talking of the limps and silencing the tongue!, as in the below verses:

 

(وَيَوْمَ يُحْشَرُ أَعْدَاءُ اللَّهِ إِلَى النَّارِ فَهُمْ يُوزَعُونَ (19) حَتَّى إِذَا مَا جَاءُوهَا شَهِدَ عَلَيْهِمْ سَمْعُهُمْ وَأَبْصَارُهُمْ وَجُلُودُهُمْ بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (20) وَقَالُوا لِجُلُودِهِمْ لِمَ شَهِدْتُمْ عَلَيْنَا قَالُوا أَنْطَقَنَا اللَّهُ الَّذِي أَنْطَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ وَهُوَ خَلَقَكُمْ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ) [فصلت: 19-21]

[Maaddeey]

Surat AL Xajj:

5. O people! If you are in doubt about the Resurrection—We created you from dust, then from a small drop, then from a clinging clot, then from a lump of flesh, partly developed and partly undeveloped. In order to clarify things for you. And We settle in the wombs whatever We will for a designated term, and then We bring you out as infants, until you reach your full strength. And some of you will pass away, and some of you will be returned to the vilest age, so that he may not know, after having known. And you see the earth still; but when We send down water on it, it vibrates, and swells, and grows all kinds of lovely pairs.

 

 

 

Next Sura (Al Mu'minuun):

 

 

12. We created man from an extract of clay.

 

13. Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed.

 

14. Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

[wyre]

Garnaqsi;816934 wrote:

LOL @ the above. This is precisely what I meant when I talked of refuting a ‘copy-paste’ material being a waste of time, especially when the culprit is someone who apparently can’t construct a coherent sentence.

If You Can't Win The Argument, Atleast Try To Correct There Grammar :D

[Garnaqsi]

wyre;844997 wrote:

If You Can't Win The Argument, Atleast Try To Correct There Grammar

:D

I didn't correct anyone in that post. But let me give you an example of correction. It's 'their', not 'there', and 'at least', not 'atleast'.