In Answer to Carafaat's Somali Pan-Nationalism

[Mintid Farayar]

Jacaylbaro;761559 wrote:

Isn't the alternative already there ?? .... The 5 Somalis should be there at the moment until things change with the time. The fifth one needs to get its things together though.

Carafaat;761561 wrote:

JB, the Somali regions are there but there is hardly any systematic cooperation, they all seem to be pre-occupied with themselves and with foreign influences they can hardly withstand. And through some sort of cooperation on common issue's they could constructively achieve more, better results for their peoples and stand stronger.

http://www.somaliaonline.com/community/showthread.php/60177-Redifing-Somali-pan-nationalism./page2

 

Carafaat,

 

JB's answer is valid. The Somaliland way is the answer to the Somali quagmire. 60 years ago, there was an idealistic dream of uniting all the Somali-inhabited regions mostly driven by idealistic, young Somalis of various educational backgrounds (without a grasp of the geopolitical obstacles/movements occurring around them). It has failed miserably since that time. Somaliland is an attempt to return to the building blocks of the 'Shanta Somali' by first building home territory, mindful of the twin limitations of the current international system with many states opposed to Somali irredentism and the current enmity between many segments of the Somali people.

 

The foreign states opposed to Somaliland are powerful and numerous. But let's delve into opposition within the Somalis. The overwhelming opposition comes from one segment of Somali society -without noticing the secession of Djibouti, the occupation of the NFD or Somali Galbeed. The vast majority of Somali elites, outside of this group, are indifferent to the Somaliland question. The international recognition of Somaliland is only a threat to that particular segment (who are masters at cloaking themselves in hypocritical nationalism while ignoring the far greater problems afflicting their people). Mind you, when it's useful in attempting to get international support or advocate for whatever the new political region they've recently conjured up, they are quick to point out the success of the Somaliland model (in governance, law & order, democracy, peace, etc.) as a template of the industriousness and capability of Somalis to rule themselves. Do not be fooled by these crocodile tears over Somali unity. Just look at their genocidal treatment of their fellow Somalis in the next 'tuulo' whenever they obtain the upper hand and all becomes clear to the cognizant.

 

The bonds between Somalis are not going anywhere nor have they went anywhere. A Somali always feels kinship with another Somali when he/she has to choose between the Somali and a foreigner. No Somali is a foreigner in Hargeisa, Burco, Borama or Las Anod. The dispute is simply over which political system should be set up for Somalis - separate international states living side-by-side with common kinship bonds between them (such as the Arabs or the Anglo-Saxon world), federal states tied together under a loose federal arrangement, or the failed unitary state which led to the disaster of today. That's the crux of the political argument.

[Liibaan]

If Somalia is divisible, the former British Somali colony is divisible as well. If some tribal factions like snm/somaliland can have their own little tribal-state, Why NOT Awdal State, Makhir State, and SSC State ? snm clan-secessionists should stop their hypocrisy and lies...

 

 

If Hargeisa and Las Anod can share country, that means Hargeisa and Mogadishu can share a country, Las Anod and Bosaso can share a country as well. ancient colonial borders are irrelevant in 21 centruty. All somalis are same.

 

[Dabrow]

I think majority of all somalis want their country intact

[Abu-Salman]

Quite reasonable points for once in this emotions charged debate, the paranoid singling out of a whole portion of Somalis is not a hallmark of intellectual discourse though.

Indeed, nobody can't deny the obstacles against Somali irredentism both within and without.

 

 

Still, all that is besides the point and do little to adress the two main counter-arguments:

 

 

1- How is it morally possible to advocate for secession or a return to colonial borders on the basis of "self-determination" while ignoring the reluctance, if not strong opposition, of major local segments (including disaffected minorities in Hargeysa itself, ie Somalis outside clans)?

 

 

The dispute is simply over which political system should be set up for Somalis - separate international states living side-by-side with common kinship bonds between them (such as the Arabs or the Anglo-Saxon world), federal states tied together under a loose federal arrangement, or the failed unitary state which led to the disaster of today. That's the crux of the political argument

 

2-Why a federal, confederate or strongly devoluted system can not adress nepotism, strong state or tyranny concerns in the world of today (particularly when the vast "Southern" majority is considered as "benign")?

 

 

Would advocates for total secession finally focus on adressing dispassionately, on both purely ethical and intellectual grounds, these two compelling realities?

 

 

 

PM: Please note I'm neither "Southerner" nor "Siyadist", whatever that may mean, and that close relatives suffered in the war, took risks and supported the SNM.

Likewise, please no half-baked "97% pro secession referendum" or insinuations that there is even a remote possiblity in the current conditions of "neutral" atmosphere and state institutions or prerequisites, not to mention the most crucial issue of which kind of referendum makes sense should that matters (each region or community, "Somaliland"-wide or countrywide?).

[GoldCoast]

Good posts, both the initial one and the response above. I'm interested in Mintid's response to the above post. Hopefully this doesn't get hijacked in a predictable manner, before I get a chance to add my two cents lol.

[Che -Guevara]

^looooooooooool...in that case, I will sit this one out.

[burahadeer]

Abu-Salman;761589 wrote:

Quite reasonable points for once in this emotions charged debate, the paranoid singling out of a whole portion of Somalis is not a hallmark of intellectual discourse though.

Indeed, nobody can't deny the obstacles against Somali irredentism both within and without.

 

 

Still, all that is besides the point and do little to adress the two main counter-arguments:

 

 

1- How is it morally possible to advocate for secession or a return to colonial borders on the basis of "self-determination" while ignoring the reluctance, if not strong opposition, of major local segments (including disaffected minorities in Hargeysa itself, ie Somalis outside clans)?

 

 

 

 

 

2-Why a federal, confederate or strongly devoluted system can not adress nepotism, strong state or tyranny concerns in the world of today (particularly when the vast "Southern" majority is considered as "benign")?

 

 

Would advocates for total secession finally focus on adressing dispassionately, on both purely ethical and intellectual grounds, these two compelling realities?

 

 

 

PM: Please note I'm neither "Southerner" nor "Siyadist", whatever that may mean, and that close relatives suffered in the war, took risks and supported the SNM.

Likewise, please no half-baked "97% pro secession referendum" or insinuations that there is even a remote possiblity in the current conditions of "neutral" atmosphere and state institutions or prerequisites, not to mention the most crucial issue of which kind of referendum makes sense should that matters (each region or community, "Somaliland"-wide or countrywide?).

 

If you wana discuss on intellectual grounds as you mentioned,then you have to not use the,"1/2 baked other major clans,".I know some will object as usual but the reality is the majority in SL is a very big majority.Secondly,referendum works all over the world,how else can you determine the will of people.You can be president of the U.S with one vote.3rdly,SSC is seen by many as a force dedicated to stop SL from becoming a state on purely tribal grounds otherwise they wouldn't claim all that land which is not theirs.People will tell you,"if they were serious they would stick to what's theirs which they afraid might be given to them and thus throw their whole agenda into the air...which is destabilise."

Assume I'm impartial

On the question of one somalia... I wish but I just don't see right now.I'm coming to believe each to his own including SSC.That won't stop people from keeping contact,intermarrying,crossing to each otha etc.

The after shocks of 1960 are still with us, you see the jigsawpuzzle ,the myhem......may be better this way till when or neva.Peace & bread is paramount & all these pseudo nationalists need to focus on the real quackmire....the stability of those regions bestowed on the curse of shabab & the likes.Why only a small section of the population are holding tight to the notion of one somalia as dear life.Ask yourself that question?

[Liibaan]

burahadeer;761623 wrote:

3rdly,SSC is seen by many as a force dedicated to stop SL from becoming a state on purely tribal grounds otherwise they wouldn't claim all that land which is not theirs.

Snm/Somalidiidland is seen by many somalis as a force dedicated to divide Somalia according to old colonial maps, and prevent Somali Unity on purely tribal grounds. Somalidiidland's clan recognition should NOT be at the expense of SSC People, Maakhir people, and Awdal people.

 

SNM tribal entity should find a way to seek their clan-recognition without invading Las Anod, Bhoodle, SSC Region, Maakhir, and Awdal. They need to understand waging war on neighbors, invading, and claiming the land of other people will not bring clan-recognition.

 

 

burahadeer;761623 wrote:

People will tell you,"if they were serious they would stick to what's theirs which they afraid might be given to them and thus throw their whole agenda into the air...which is destabilise."

Assume I'm impartial

Most people will tell you, "if snm/Somaliland were serious about their clan-recognition and separating from Somalia, Snm/Somaliland would stick to what's theirs ( their tribal triangle Hargeisa, Burco, and Barbara), which they afraid might be given to them and thus throw their whole clan-secession project down the drain ...which is to start civil war, hostility, instability, and invade and wage war on neighboring clans. "

Assume I'm objective and fair.

[Carafaat]

Mintid Farayar;761576 wrote:

http://www.somaliaonline.com/community/showthread.php/60177-Redifing-Somali-pan-nationalism./page2

 

Carafaat,

 

JB's answer is valid. The Somaliland way is the answer to the Somali quagmire. 60 years ago, there was an idealistic dream of uniting all the Somali-inhabited regions mostly driven by idealistic, young Somalis of various educational backgrounds (without a grasp of the geopolitical obstacles/movements occurring around them). It has failed miserably since that time. Somaliland is an attempt to return to the building blocks of the 'Shanta Somali' by first building home territory, mindful of the twin limitations of the current international system with many states opposed to Somali irredentism and the current enmity between many segments of the Somali people.

 

The foreign states opposed to Somaliland are powerful and numerous. But let's delve into opposition within the Somalis. The overwhelming opposition comes from one segment of Somali society -without noticing the secession of Djibouti, the occupation of the NFD or Somali Galbeed. The vast majority of Somali elites, outside of this group, are indifferent to the Somaliland question. The international recognition of Somaliland is only a threat to that particular segment (who are masters at cloaking themselves in hypocritical nationalism while ignoring the far greater problems afflicting their people). Mind you, when it's useful in attempting to get international support or advocate for whatever the new political region they've recently conjured up, they are quick to point out the success of the Somaliland model (in governance, law & order, democracy, peace, etc.) as a template of the industriousness and capability of Somalis to rule themselves. Do not be fooled by these crocodile tears over Somali unity. Just look at their genocidal treatment of their fellow Somalis in the next 'tuulo' whenever they obtain the upper hand and all becomes clear to the cognizant.

 

The bonds between Somalis are not going anywhere nor have they went anywhere. A Somali always feels kinship with another Somali when he/she has to choose between the Somali and a foreigner. No Somali is a foreigner in Hargeisa, Burco, Borama or Las Anod.

The dispute is simply over which political system should be set up for Somalis - separate international states living side-by-side with common kinship bonds between them (such as the Arabs or the Anglo-Saxon world), federal states tied together under a loose federal arrangement, or the failed unitary state which led to the disaster of today. That's the crux of the political argument

.

Mintid, I did not offer a solution for the political dispute concerning Somalia/Somaliland not was I attempting to introduce Somaliweyn or Unionification through a backdoor. But I simply raised the question about the need for a new for pan-Somali nationalism one that can unite Somali people's irrespective of their other identities(for example Djiboutian, Somaliland, Puntland, Somaliweyn, etc), political status and ideas(ONLFS or pro somali region, etc). One that can people combine with their own flavours and own political ideologies.

 

Mintid, my question is. Can one be a Somalilander and Somali nationalist at the same time?

[Mintid Farayar]

Abu S.,

 

1- How is it morally possible to advocate for secession or a return to colonial borders on the basis of "self-determination" while ignoring the reluctance, if not strong opposition, of major local segments (including disaffected minorities in Hargeysa itself, ie Somalis outside clans)?

 

Morality is subjective. If we take the greatest moral barometer (our faith), we should all adhere to a pan-Ummah idea of a nation-state, yet you find few Muslims (let alone Somalis) calling for the return of the Caliphate. As for the reluctance of ‘major local segments’ (or disaffected minorities), outside of a vocal diaspora, it, frankly, has shown little steam within Somaliland. Somaliland has the greatest international civil presence in the former Somalia (all types of international NGO’s), yet almost all reports on the region are unanimous in the overwhelming support for independence. This is not to negate the existence of a pro-union sentiment within Somaliland – it’s just a minority. We find the presence of this small variation from the common political will in all countries. Somaliland is attempting to build a democratic society where the rights of the minority are respected but, like all democratic societies, the majority will call the shots.

 

2-Why a federal, confederate or strongly devoluted system can not adress nepotism, strong state or tyranny concerns in the world of today (particularly when the vast "Southern" majority is considered as "benign")?

 

 

Would advocates for total secession finally focus on adressing dispassionately, on both purely ethical and intellectual grounds, these two compelling realities?

 

 

Idealism makes for great university essays, however the reality proves otherwise. The federal or confederal model has been presented as the future for the former Somalia for close to 2 decades now, but has yet to grow realistic roots on the ground. The closest to it has been the autonomous Puntland. Yet Puntland has been in a state of slow devolution for the past 6 years, starting with the loss of the Maakhir region, followed by Sool, and currently we’re seeing the Northern Galkacayo region slowly slip out of the grasp (Faroole’s call for AMISOM peacekeepers underlines this point). Additionally, the presence of a parallel mafia entity with considerable firepower and financial resources within the region, in the form of the pirates, does not auger well for this model.

 

In contrast, Somaliland (even if it did always claim the borders of the former British Somaliland) started out with the central administration barely controlling Hargeisa. Through the years, the world has watched as this project gradually expanded governance town by town with the necessary social compacts -(the social compacts missing in Southern Somalia). Occasionally, military might was used by different Somaliland administrations followed by functioning governance. This has led to the self-sustaining (though still poor, like most African states) model we have today.

 

In summary, the federal or confederal model has yet to materialize as a viable template. Most aspirants to that model (with the exception of Puntland) still run their administrations out of foreign hotel rooms.

[Mintid Farayar]

Carafaat;761649 wrote:

Mintid, my question is. Can one be a Somalilander and Somali nationalist at the same time?

 

Yes, the two can co-exist and do co-exist. The term 'Somalidiid' in reference to Somalilanders is simply a cynical attempt to sway uninitiated believers of Somali nationalism against Somaliland.

 

Nevertheless, experience has thought Somaliland to be wary of recent political standard bearers(of Somali nationalism) given the anti-Somaliland baggage they often carry.

[Che -Guevara]

Secession and Somali nationalism-an oxymoron

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Waxaa la yaabay the most die-hard, extremist goosashodoon folks are the most who advocate against Sool iyo Sanaag or even Awdal inay ka kasoo horjeestaan their unrealized dream. It is so weird of them not realizing they are against their own beliefs.

[burahadeer]

Sool, sanag & awdal.....the great majority of land belong to the majority FYI.Reality stands & talk is just Talk.This line below by Mintid Farayare is the truth.

 

 

"".Nevertheless, experience has thought Somaliland to be wary of recent political standard bearers(of Somali nationalism) given the anti-Somaliland baggage they often carry".

[Che -Guevara]

Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar;761677 wrote:

Waxaa la yaabay the most die-hard, extremist

goosashodoon

folks are the most who advocate against Sool iyo Sanaag or even Awdal inay ka kasoo horjeestaan their unrealized dream. It is so weird of them not realizing they are against their own beliefs.

Now, they are telling us they are Somali nationalists....lool